Broken/open window discovery-a lie?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by madeleine, Feb 5, 2011.

  1. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    Wait a minute...
    Fleet White went downstairs to basement to look for JBR (Schiller 1999a: 44). This time is supported by Carnes (2003:14): "The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF P 23; PSMF P 23.)
    Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF P 25; PSMF P 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.)" (Carnes 2003:14).
    The door was open at 6:15 am when Fleet White looked in and didn’t see JonBenet’s body? But when French looked in the basement, the WC door was closed and latched because, not knowing about the latch at the top, he thought it was stuck. And some time after that, John is down in the basement alone by himself. Has anyone ever heard if, when he and Fleet were down there together, did John have to unlatch the door to open it or was it again unlatched?

    And all this moving about of the suitcase... Yet there is an evidence photo of the broken piece of glass that was lying on top of the suitcase.
    .
     


  2. cynic

    cynic Well-Known Member

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    I believe the reference is to the door that I have circled below, not the actual wine cellar door.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    Perhaps the lights were on down there because that was where the phone was that they used to make the 911 call.
     
  4. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Good question about whether JR had to unlatch the door-and a VERY good clue. We already know that FW claimed to look in the room and didn't see JB, and we know that was after Officer French was unable to open the door. FW obviously was aware of the latch, but we don't know if FW latched the door again. If this was never asked of him, it should have been. If he didn't obviously JR would have simply opened it and rushed in. If he did, FW would have seen him do it. If JR had to open the latch at that point, JR was still unaware that FW had looked in the room earlier. If it was unlatched, wouldn't JR be wondering who had unlatched it? No one had found her body previous to JR, so you'd think he'd be really concerned about finding it now unlatched.
     
  5. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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    DeeDee,

    Your post reminded me of a photo interview with Patsy. She had been shown a photo of the basement and she had known it was before they had found JBR, because the door was still latched; The interviewer Kane I believe, agreed with her (I need to see if I cant find that interview in my notes). Something about that interview and her comments bothered me.

    Shhh, be wary wary quiet Im hunting lies in my notes...... :sleuth:
     
  6. SunnieRN

    SunnieRN Active Member

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    22 does. When we were ready for the phone call and I

    23 was prepped about what I was going to say and I

    24 was getting the family ready. And so between that

    25 period of time we were just waiting for the phone

    Getting his family ready?! What is he talking about? Burke was already gone, Patsy was in the sunroom, in fact it was noted by more then just the officers that John and Patsy were apart and didn't talk to, or comfort eaqchother. Hmmmm, what's up?

    Then he talks about the suitcase. The suitcase that wasn't where it was supposed to be. This suitcase has got to either be deflection for John, leading to questioning JAR's actions/behaviors, due to the contents inside, or John knows who did this and was trying to give LE a clue, without directly naming names.

    You notice that Patsy is appalled at the thought that JonBenet was assaulted, what about John?
     
  7. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    dunno,they just reject and deny this....not a normal reaction IMO.
    the normal reaction would be shock, yes and then you would ask yourself who could have done this,especially if it was something that happened before,it means it was someone close.
    but NO,they say it's impossible.
    how do you know?????where you there with ther 24 hours every day?
    so instead of being mad and trying to think for 10 seconds who might have done it,you just say no,impossible.not happening in the real world IMO.
    this strong denial means something else........
     
  8. cynic

    cynic Well-Known Member

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    I believe I found it, have a look at this thread:
    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129344"]The Wine Cellar - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
     
  9. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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  10. cynic

    cynic Well-Known Member

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    Glad to help a good cause.
     
  11. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    the broken /open window/this is how the intruder got in it's obviously a defence line,now I am sure.
    even if IDI,he didn't get in through that window.
    the cops didn't notice anything unusual about it went they searched the basement,it probably was broken but NOT open.no one except JR ever saw it OPEN.
    if it would have been a red flag for JR he would have told someone,well,he didn't.
    and IMO the broken/open window,this is how the pedo got in theory is LS's theory,not even JR's,JR was never concerned about it,it was an "inside job",right?insiders have keys or know which doors are unlocked or are even invited in.
    so...
     
  12. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    And that's the key, isn't it. No one but JR saw it open.. Then, LS jumped on the "SO THAT's how the intruder got in!" bandwagon. And even though JR knew HE broke the window and ADMITTED it, he jumped right on it too. Well, could you blame him? He had to take every chance LS gave them. To hell with the unbroken spider web across the grate, and the lack of evidence in the light layer of undisturbed snow and the undisturbed debris in the window well. To hell with the suitcase that FW admitted moving- LS said the intruder put it there, so full speed ahead with it.
     
  13. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    you know,I always thought LS was really passionate about his theory and really believed in IDI.but maybe I am being naive?he doesn't look/sound to me as the type of guy who would do this only for the money.maybe he was brainwashed and charmed by the R's religious bla bla?dunno,he didn't seem to be the stupid,naive type either.can you really switch sides that easily,now you fight in the name of justice the next minute you defend a child killer for the money?maybe I AM naive if I find it hard to believe....
    what was LS's real motivation,what do you think,dunno what to think anymore
     
  14. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he was in it for the money, I really don't. He didn't come off that way, but hey- I suppose it is possible.
    Rather, I believe it was your suggestion he was unduly influenced (brainwashed is maybe too strong a word for it) by the Rs apparent religious fervor. LS seemed to be a committed Christian. The Rs seemed to him to be the same. Possibly he felt that since HE couldn't have done this, that they couldn't have either. I am sure he had never come across a case quite like this one, either. And it must always be remembered that whenever you think/feel that YOU couldn't have done this- well, you really don't KNOW for a fact whether you would have done this unless you were actually faced with the same situations.
    Sometimes we don't know ourselves as much as we think/hope we do. It is impossible to walk in another's shoes- and sometimes even our own shoes take us in a direction we never thought we'd go.
     
  15. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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    Bravo DeeDee, a very thoughtful and wise post, also very true. We can never know what we would really do until put in that situation. Just exactly, what would we do to protect one of our own children? I think we all place ourselves in the shoes of the dead childs parent. I can feel that very real pain and anger, the need for someone to pay for this heartbreak. Yet, when I put on the shoes of the mother who has lost one child and fears losing another; I cant say that I wouldnt be tempted to do what ever it took to protect my remaining baby. I would like to think that I would do the right thing and feel in my heart that I would do that right thing, but if I am honest then I have to admit that I should start praying now, that I never be put to that test. We are after all human.


    As for LS, I also agree with you, I think he started out with his religious convictions and slight bias towards his fellow Christians. I strongly believe that even he at some point began to doubt the Rs. Imagine coming out of retirement from an amazing career with the record that LS had and taking the wrong side. His career would have ended much different the second time and sadly, he couldnt avoid the stain that it has left. LS is proof of what you say DeeDee, we cannot know what we would do until we ourselves are put in that position.

    Seems to me that Higher powers put many a person to the test on this one. I wonder, who passed and who failed?
     
  16. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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    By the By, I was not stating my theory as it being BDI. Simply giving a thought and angle that I explored, inspired by DeeDee's wise/wonderful post. Just thought to clear that up...LOL
     
  17. wonderllama

    wonderllama Registered Snoozer

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    As much as I think LS was wrong with his ideas, I'm not convinced that he was sucked in by the Ramsey's religious commitments etc.

    There's a lot of people on these boards, heck, most of America, who seem to be quite religious and yet 90%+ of us believe the Ramsey's were involved in this crime.

    More to the point, it sort of implies that non-religious types (like myself) would automatically be taking the opposing side.
     
  18. Whaleshark

    Whaleshark New Member

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    Hi, I'm new, but have been reading and lurking for years....I'll take a break for a while, come back, and see or hear new things, and get different perspectives. I am no expert, and I have no final decision made up one way or the other as to who committed this crime. I try to be open-minded each time I get back on and see what the evidence and discussions have to tell me with fresh eyes.... I don't want to have my mind made up so that I only see what I want in the evidence, etc. So I have wavered on the fence time after time, gone back and forth with new information that is found. ....I also am not as read up as most people and invested in this case as most who have been on here for years, so didn't want to post anything out of ignorance, and be told - go read up first...so I've waited so many times and wondered all these years what might make me finally sign up and post. So, with that, I finally have to say....

    How is this not a smoking gun?:

    JOHN RAMSEY: That looked wrong. That suitcase did not belong there.
    PATSY RAMSEY: It was out of place.
    JOHN RAMSEY: It was out of place.
    BARBARA WALTERS: So you thought perhaps..
    JOHN RAMSEY: It was...
    BARBARA WALTERS: ...the kidnapper had gone through that window.
    JOHN RAMSEY: I...that was my first impression, yes.
    BARBARA WALTERS 20/20 MAR 15/00

    COURIC: Detective Linda Arndt was assigned to the Ramsey home during those long hours. Sometime that morning, John Ramsey headed for the basement. Why did you go there?
    Mr. RAMSEY: We had a basement window that was under a--a grate, a removable grate that I had used the past summer to get into the house when I'd lost my keys. I--I wanted to check that window. I went down to that room. The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt.
    COURIC: You did tell her about the...
    Mr. RAMSEY: Yes.
    COURIC: ...open window?
    Mr. RAMSEY: I did.
    COURIC: And what did she say?
    Mr. RAMSEY: I don't recall that she said anything.
    Today Show, March 20, 2000


    KING: In the book, you write about the suitcase and the open basement window, but the police say you never told them about it.
    J. RAMSEY: That's false.
    P. RAMSEY: False.
    J. RAMSEY: I told Linda Arndt that I found the window open and I found a suitcase under the window.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html

    "Each window had four panes, and Fleet White, having been down there earlier, pointed out the baseball-sized hole in the upper left pane of the middle window. 'Damn it, I had to break that,' John Ramsey said, adding that it happened the previous summer when he kicked in the window to get into the house after locking himself out. Should have fixed it then, he noted, taping his forehead. The window was closed but unlatched."
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 27

    "Rick French....was reportedly still tortured by his failure to open the wine cellar door when he searched the house in those first few minutes"
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 660

    Larry King: A window. Was that window open when they investigated it?
    Lou Smit: Yes. When John Ramsey had first seen the window...
    Larry King: There we see a window. That's the window, right?
    Lou Smit: That's the window. Now, again, that picture that you see is the first photograph taken of that window after the crime scene technicians got back into the house. Now, later on, I believe that it was noted that this window may have been opened even by John Ramsey and Fleet White. But what that window did show us, when we first seen it, was that entry could have been made there.
    May 28, 2001 Larry King Live Interview with Lou Smit


    Lou Smit: "So you think that the chair would block the door and nobody would have gotten in there without moving it?"
    John Ramsey: “Correct.”
    Lou Smit: "In other words, let's say that the intruder goes into the train room, gets out, let's say, that window?”
    John Ramsey: “Uh huh.
    Lou Smit: "How in effect would he get that chair to block that door, if that is the case, is what I'm saying?"
    John Ramsey: "I don't know... I go down, I say, "Ooh, that door is blocked." I move the chair and went in the room."
    Lou Smit: So you couldn’t have gotten in without moving the chair?”
    John Ramsey: "Correct... I had to move the chair."
    Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"
    John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."

    John Ramsey, 1998 Interview
    __________________

    Okay. Seriously.
    JR states that he went to that basement room sometime that morning, before being told to check the house by Linda Arndt, because he wanted to "check THAT window" that he had broken into previously when he had lost his keys. He says twice above that he broke that window to get in. Then he says, "The window was open. It was broken. I went back upstairs and reported that to Detective Arndt".

    Now, it's already been noted and commented on before that he has changed his story on whether he reported it to her or not. But if he is the one who broke it anyway, what did he report to her about it, if he, in fact, did that? That he found the window more broken, but he is the one who broke it anyway? ...And he does say that he was checking to see if it "hadn't been broken again". So had it? If it was already broken, why would it be broken again? And why would it be just that window? Why not any of the windows? Maybe the kidnapper thought it would just be easiest to get in through the one window that was already a little broken? If so, did the window look 'broken again'? Were JR's concerns/suspicions confirmed? If JR had told Det. Arndt that it was open and broken, and entrance/exit by the kidnapper might have been gained that way, then it would have been noted and checked. After all, he said he went down there specifically for that reason, knowing that was a compromised possible entrance. Also, this time he matter-of-factly states that he reported it to her, but he says that he does not recall that she said anything about it. If he went down there for that reason, and found it to be more disturbed and out of place, including the suitcase, etc., then he would remember reporting it to her, would have recalled what she said, and with that important info, she, or someone else from LE would have gone down there to check it out. Especially since he says:

    JR: It was dramatically out of the ordinary, but, that is, I thought about it.

    So, ok?......


    And I can't even fathom the next bit of ridiculosity (that's what it is, because there is no other word).

    Lou Smit asks JR about the chair blocking the door and no one being able to enter that room without having to move/remove it. JR agrees that it had to be moved. Okay let's stop right there for a moment.

    JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.
    We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a chair that was in front of the door. Some old
    things. I moved the chair, went into this room, went back in here.
    This window was open, maybe that far.

    If he's going down there to see if the kidnapper came IN through that window, does he not pause at first sight of the door being totally blocked by the chair? If it were me, I'd go, well he probably didn't come in this way then, seeing as this door is/has been blocked. Why? Because if the kidnapper HAD come IN through that window, then the chair had to NOT be blocking that door in the first place, no? So you would then have to ask yourself why the chair is NOW blocking the door.

    In order to proceed through these questions logically you will see that one does not fit with the other, or doesn't make sense if the other is true....

    So if the kidnapper didn't come IN that way, but possibly LEFT that way, why is the chair blocking the door?

    Lou Smit: "The thing I'm trying to figure out in my mind then is, if an intruder went through the door, he'd almost have to pull the chair behind him... because that would have been his exit... so that's not very logical as far as......"
    John Ramsey: "I think it is. I mean if this person is that bizarrely clever to have not left any good evidence, but left all these little funny clues around, they... are clever enough to pull the chair back when they left."


    The statement above by JR is the most absurd thing I have ever read. :doh: Bizarrely clever? Not.

    Okay, why would the kidnapper do this? If he came in that way, the door was not blocked by the chair. So if he is now exiting that way, why would he now block the door with a chair that was an awkward and difficult thing to do in the first place? Do you not want someone to think you came in that way? What do you care, esp. if the window was broken and open anyway? If you came in that way, the door was not blocked by that chair before, so why would you put it there now? And you could NOT close the door all the way anyway because your arm would be in the way while you are holding that chair to block the door. There has to be some space between the chair and you getting your arm out to close the door and then go.

    So if the chair WAS there the whole time, and the kidnapper did NOT come in that way, then why would he LEAVE that way? Why would he not leave the way he came in? And if he thought he needed another exit than the way he came in, why/how would he know that there was a viable exit beyond a door blocked by a chair in a room full of junk that didn't have much entrance/exit traffic? How would he know to go out that way? And if he did, why didn't he enter that way then? He couldn't have, if the chair was blocking the door.

    The chair was either:
    1) Blocking that room for some time, many a month maybe, with all the junk down there, until JR first moved it to go in there and 'check that window' that morning...in which you would surmise though that the killer could NOT have entered that way then, at least.

    2) JR or someone else put the chair there at some point during the crime to block that room for some reason, and is now lying about the chair being put there by an intruder.

    3) Intruder put the chair there.

    So why did the kidnapper/killer block the door? He didn't.
     
  19. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

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    Excellent first post, Whaleshark. Welcome to the forum and please don't wait so long to post again.
    If this had been any other dead child in any other cellar in this country, the Ramseys would have had to explain their ridiculous lies in front of a jury. John said these words believing himself to be "bizarrely clever".
     
  20. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    If John went to the basement alone, it would have to have happened around 11...that is the time he told Stewart Long he found JonBenet.

    John is anxious that Officer's French and Reichenbach did not discover JonBenet's body. He has to do something...like move JonBenet's body closer to the wine cellar door.

    He is aware that the police are not going to enter the basement anymore so he takes matters into his own hands...he discovers the body.

    My belief is that John discovered JonBenet the night she disappeared. Patsy tells LE that she screamed for John when she noticed JonBenet was not in her room. She says she screamed and he screamed as he came up from the basement. Her comments about when "we" found the body ring true.
     

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