Bruce Jenner Becoming a Woman and more...#2

Donjeta

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Well, you never know, some kids might actually want their father to be happy.
 

smeck

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Please do not beat me up for my opinion but I believe this is a type of mental disorder.....I sympathize with any mental issues but do not think he should be made out to be a hero any more than a person with any other mental disorder. Something in his brain is telling him he is a woman but his body does not agree otherwise he would produce the hormones needed to grow breast etc. I hope Bruce Jenner's decisions have been made in conjunction with therapy and continued mental health care.
 

Donjeta

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I don't necessarily see any a priori reason why people with mental disorders couldn't be heroes... Plenty of people have faced serious mental issues and if they manage to pull through and achieve something worthwhile despite the mental disorder, attain a sense of peace within themselves despite their challenges, they have a pretty good chance of being my hero, perhaps more so than someone who easily breezed through everything with no care in the world.
 

La Louve

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Well firstly i didn't say a single word for you.

Secondly, no that is not the mentality of my world.

For the record i think what "Bruce" has done is a disgrace, once you have fathered children it is to late to suddenly decide to become a woman, there's nothing brave about the man, i feel for his kids and near family for the embarrassment and hurt he has caused them, whatever they say on the outside.

You made a statement of a global view ("the world"). I was trying to remind you that the whole world does not feel that way, and I certainly do not.

Agree to disagree.
 

james83

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You made a statement of a global view ("the world"). I was trying to remind you that the whole world does not feel that way, and I certainly do not.

Agree to disagree.

Sure, No worries.
 

smeck

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I am not excluding people with mental disorders from being heroes......but acting on a mental disorder does not seem heroic to me.
 

Donjeta

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Well but if the alternative is living unhappily and dishonestly pretending you're something you're not - denying the feelings that you're desperately unhappy in your skin, is that heroic?
 

smeck

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Well but if the alternative is living unhappily and dishonestly pretending you're something you're not - denying the feelings that you're desperately unhappy in your skin, is that heroic?

Wow.....many people are unhappy due to mental disorders. Dealing with a mental or physical disability can be very challenging and heroic. Dressing in evening gowns with heavy makeup and photoshopping is not heroic in my opinion.
 

smeck

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Bruce Jenner has lived a very privileged life.....money, fame, family and athletic achievements. His love of the limelight has been revealed with his handling of this change. I truly feel for the people dealing with mental disorders who do not have the means that Bruce Jenner has.
 

Donjeta

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Wow.....many people are unhappy due to mental disorders. Dealing with a mental or physical disability can be very challenging and heroic. Dressing in evening gowns with heavy makeup and photoshopping is not heroic in my opinion.

Well we completely agree about that, it's not makeup and photoshopping that I consider potentially heroic about transgender people transitioning. It's more the part where someone is being courageous and honest to his or her own self and face the prejudices despite the fact that the opposition of the world may sometimes be quite brutal and hateful.
 

smeck

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I am an extremely tolerant person and very accepting of people's differences. It just concerns me when we can become so comfortable with mental disorders. There are people who think they are aliens.....are we discriminating against them if we don't accept their feelings?
 

Zuri

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Well we completely agree about that, it's not makeup and photoshopping that I consider potentially heroic about transgender people transitioning. It's more the part where someone is being courageous and honest to his or her own self and face the prejudices despite the fact that the opposition of the world may sometimes be quite brutal and hateful.
Beautifully said.
Tolerance. Acceptance. Kindness.

IMO, we need more of these in our lives. I don't know that I would have the courage to do what Caitlin Jenner has done. IMO it seems to make a lot of males uncomfortable, because Bruce was an admired athlete and males admire that. I would imagine that a lot of men don't understand this particular transition because of her age and fame as Bruce.

IMO, Bruce transgendered to Caitlin because he was tired of living a lie and not being true to himself/herself. How many people are really honest with themselves, introspective and brave enough to stand up for something they truly believe in?

I don't know whether Caitlin will prove to be a "hero" from my perspective, but she may very well be a hero to those struggling with gender identity. The very fact that she was a man's man and Olympic athlete may be just what is needed to evoke sentiments of tolerance, acceptance, kindness and most of all compassion. IMO
 

smeck

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Thank you all for sharing your opinions on this with me.....I am going to wait and see how much of this transformation is about money and fame before I change my opinion. There are several good articles about this type of disorder and before we go making transgender bathrooms, I hope there are more studies in this area. Back later....
 

Zuri

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I have been wondering how does one explain transgendering to small children, like Caitlin's grandchildren? Mason is old enough to know something has changed as Caitlin still sounds like Bruce. How do you explain the change?

It can't be much different than explaining to children whose parent or sibling has sustained disfiguring burns or something that has made them unrecognizable? They sound the same, but don't look the same. I would imagine the gender change would be harder for a small child to understand or no?
 

Donjeta

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I am an extremely tolerant person and very accepting of people's differences. It just concerns me when we can become so comfortable with mental disorders. There are people who think they are aliens.....are we discriminating against them if we don't accept their feelings?

Well I think of it this way: whatever will help the person get better and live more functionally is probably the better option.


if Bruce Jenner feels happier and like a more fulfilled, functional person as Caitlyn, it isn't really relevant if I accept his feelings or not. It's Jenner's life, Jenner's feelings, not mine. Bruce/Caitlyn is the best judge of that, and it's no skin off my nose really. Besides, there's precious little that anybody can do to help transgender people feel more like their biological gender again, it's a relatively stable state, and the risk of suicide is very high. So if the choice is that he/she is unhappy feeling trapped in his/her body that feels wrong all the time, or that the transgender person gets to choose the gender that suits him or her the best although I'm slightly uncomfortable occasionally, not knowing what to think of transgenderism, (whenever I happen to think about it which is not that often), it seems quite clear to me which matters the most.

People with delusions and hallucinations are frequently quite scared, anxious and unable to function, living with the beliefs, and it's not a steady state, sometimes it passes without intervention or there might be medications or treatments that could help them. It's easier to be cured of psychosis than from being transgender, so worth a try. But sometimes if the drugs don't work and the delusional person is in a safe environment and not in any danger from the delusions, and gets very upset and agitated when anyone suggests that they're not an alien, I might just go with it and let them think whatever they will think anyway and just try to make sure the person doesn't end up hurting themselves.

Slurs and contempt won't help either the transgender person or the psychotic one.
 

Seasidepch

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I am all for people being their authentic selves and imagine it must have been torture to live like he/she has for so many years. I keep thinking of his children and step-children. It has to be hard adjusting to this extreme change. No matter how "worldly or sophisticated" they act - this has to be very hard to accept. I am 57 and I would struggle with it. Your dad is your dad and then he is someone called Caitlyn. As a parent I don't think I could do this if it hurt my kids and I think Caitlyn's debut on the cover of VF in a bustier was over the top. You know his kids are going to get the backlash for this.
 

LaneGirl

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In the end, people are persuaded not by what we say, but by what they understand.

John C. Maxwell


The above for me was key. I was raised in a fundamentalist group, you could talk to me until you were blue I wasn't going to even try to understand why people do some of the things they do - to me it was wrong period.

But I never stopped wanting to learn why this and why that. That inquisitiveness helped me to understand 1. right and wrong is subjective 2. my view of right and wrong is exactly that my view based upon a religious upbringing that was heavily ingrained.

Over time when I have a strong opinion of things I stop and start asking questions and look at the "other sides" point of view this helps me understand.

Understanding someones lifestyle and accepting it is ok, it doesn't hurt in fact it's like a lightbulb turning on. But this is my experience.
 

LaneGirl

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I am all for people being their authentic selves and imagine it must have been torture to live like he/she has for so many years. I keep thinking of his children and step-children. It has to be hard adjusting to this extreme change. No matter how "worldly or sophisticated" they act - this has to be very hard to accept. I am 57 and I would struggle with it. Your dad is your dad and then he is someone called Caitlyn. As a parent I don't think I could do this if it hurt my kids and I think Caitlyn's debut on the cover of VF in a bustier was over the top. You know his kids are going to get the backlash for this.

65 years of struggling through this, most of her kids already knew something was up. I see your point it almost looks selfish but I think the kids and someone here said it best, they want her to be happy.

If my parent was unhappy and struggling through something lets say leaving my other parent for another person(seems selfish). I would be devastated, angry you name it. But once the range of emotions settled down I probably could look back and say wow that parent was miserable and making all of us unhappy and now they are happy.

Not sure if that is a great analogy but I'll own it:).
 

Zuri

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In the end, people are persuaded not by what we say, but by what they understand.

John C. Maxwell


The above for me was key. I was raised in a fundamentalist group, you could talk to me until you were blue I wasn't going to even try to understand why people do some of the things they do - to me it was wrong period.

But I never stopped wanting to learn why this and why that. That inquisitiveness helped me to understand 1. right and wrong is subjective 2. my view of right and wrong is exactly that my view based upon a religious upbringing that was heavily ingrained.

Over time when I have a strong opinion of things I stop and start asking questions and look at the "other sides" point of view this helps me understand.

Understanding someones lifestyle and accepting it is ok, it doesn't hurt in fact it's like a lightbulb turning on. But this is my experience.

I absolutely love this post and admire you so much! Evolving comes to mind when I read this and being open. What strength you must possess to change and question what has been so ingrained. Kudos to you.
 

Donjeta

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I have been wondering how does one explain transgendering to small children, like Caitlin's grandchildren? Mason is old enough to know something has changed as Caitlin still sounds like Bruce. How do you explain the change?

It can't be much different than explaining to children whose parent or sibling has sustained disfiguring burns or something that has made them unrecognizable? They sound the same, but don't look the same. I would imagine the gender change would be harder for a small child to understand or no?

I'm in favor of straight talking. Children often undersrand more than we think, if someone just takes the time to explain in their own language. It would be a good time to talk about tolerance and discrimination and how we sometimes value people on the basis of the outside although the inner feelings may matter much more.

Depending on the age I might start by asking them if they think they're girl or a boy and pointing out that thinking you're a girl and having girly equipment are actually two different things, and what do you think would happen if you thought you were a girl but others thought you were a boy or if you suddenly ended up in the wrong body and so on. There are some cool children's books about this. Then I'd explain about transgenderism in language that they can understand, that some people feel more like girls even though their genitals make people think of them as boys, or vice versa, and that gender isn't just about the genitals but also a sense of identity and feeling comfortable in yourself.

And your grandfather hasn't stopped loving you you although she now looks very different from most other children's grandpas.
 
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