Bruce Jenner Becoming a Woman and more...#2

[LaneGirl]

I am an extremely tolerant person and very accepting of people's differences. It just concerns me when we can become so comfortable with mental disorders. There are people who think they are aliens.....are we discriminating against them if we don't accept their feelings?

BBM - This is how I see it, it's their feelings.

If one feels sad because their pet died we acknowledge and accept that is how they feel even though maybe we don't care for pets and can't see why they are morning for months over a pet. They feel sad we accept it even though we personally may think its over the top.

So if someone "feels" like they are an alien it doesn't make their "feelings" right or wrong it's theirs to feel that way. I think we just smile and say hi and hope that their alien feelings make them happy.

Different story if the alien feelings are telling them to harm themselves or others. Harm being the subjective word.

 

[LaneGirl]

I have been wondering how does one explain transgendering to small children, like Caitlin's grandchildren? Mason is old enough to know something has changed as Caitlin still sounds like Bruce. How do you explain the change?

It can't be much different than explaining to children whose parent or sibling has sustained disfiguring burns or something that has made them unrecognizable? They sound the same, but don't look the same. I would imagine the gender change would be harder for a small child to understand or no?

I find in my experiences children are soooooooooooo much more accepting than adults. Children learn prejudice. I think they explain in the simplest terms the child can understand (age appropriate). Basically she is the exact same person she has always been just dressing different. Then as they age they learn more of the struggle.

Kids have never ceased to amaze me.

 

[LaneGirl]

I absolutely love this post and admire you so much! Evolving comes to mind when I read this and being open. What strength you must possess to change and question what has been so ingrained. Kudos to you.

Thank you. It's embarrassing how "closed" minded I once was.

I'm not calling anyone on here anything close to that. This is my experience about me.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Well but if the alternative is living unhappily and dishonestly pretending you're something you're not - denying the feelings that you're desperately unhappy in your skin, is that heroic?

I get what you're trying to say and I do think the anguish is real in having to live life in a gender that you don't identify with. This makes me think about people that are uncomfortable in their bodies because they think their limbs, eyes, etc. don't belong. Maybe it's just me but the thought of removing perfectly good hands makes me cringe.

 

[Donjeta]

Well I think it makes almost everyone cringe, and there might be some serious charges for any doctor who got involved in removing someone's hands because of a delusion. They want to help people and do no harm. But if you amputate a hand there is no real guarantee that it will cure the person's anguish and a 100 % chance that it will cause severe disability. Maybe the person is no longer distressed because he has a hand that doesn't belong but is more distressed because he has no hands?

At least a transgender person has a chance of feeling better after the transition, and being seriously disabled is not a certainty.

 

[LaneGirl]

I get what you're trying to say and I do think the anguish is real in having to live life in a gender that you don't identify with. This makes me think about people that are uncomfortable in their bodies because they think their limbs, eyes, etc. don't belong. Maybe it's just me but the thought of removing perfectly good hands makes me cringe.

Have you heard of this before? I haven't yikes.

Many who don't like their body parts(legs, hands etc) and can afford to have cosmetic surgery would do that before removing an actual body part.

But if you are comparing removing a hand to reassignment surgery then I don't think the two can be compared. I won't even pretend to know about the trans community hopefully someone more knowledgable can explain it.

 

[Zuri]

In the 1970's, I was a nursing student and volunteered in the Urology Clinic at Vanderbilt University Hospital. There were a number of men seeking surgery to become women. The patients were required to see a Psychiatrist and therapist and attend mandatory educational meetings about sex change. This was considered ground breaking surgery at the time. It is amazing how much progress has been made since then.

 

[Cricket99]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...in-shocking-joke/ar-BBkAqOq?ocid=ansthehill11

This article made me think....

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Have you heard of this before? I haven't yikes.

Many who don't like their body parts(legs, hands etc) and can afford to have cosmetic surgery would do that before removing an actual body part.

But if you are comparing removing a hand to reassignment surgery then I don't think the two can be compared. I won't even pretend to know about the trans community hopefully someone more knowledgable can explain it.

It's called "Body Integrity Identity Disorder" or BIID.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19132621

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder

 

[smeck]

I am no expert but I believe your brain can "lie"to you about things...anorexia is an example. If you are genetically and biologically a man and you brain tells you that you are a woman or that you don't like your body...this is a mental problem. I am not saying that the person doesn't truly believe what the brain is telling them but to have surgery seems to possibly short sighted.

 

[nrdsb4]

I am no expert but I believe your brain can "lie"to you about things...anorexia is an example. If you are genetically and biologically a man and you brain tells you that you are a woman or that you don't like your body...this is a mental problem. I am not saying that the person doesn't truly believe what the brain is telling them but to have surgery seems to possibly short sighted.

As to Caitlyn specifically, I don't believe she has yet decided that she will have surgery.

 

[smeck]

If I am not mistaken, bruce Jenner has has breast augmentation surgery, adam's apple surgery and others.

 

[nrdsb4]

If I am not mistaken, bruce Jenner has has breast augmentation surgery, adam's apple surgery and others.

True, but so have many women (possibly save the adam's apple). Do you have a problem with women having breast augs, face lifts, etc.?

You say you are tolerant, but everything you have said past that statement seems to belie the sentiment. jmo.

Apparently his brain "has been lying to him" for over 60 years. I'd say that waiting until one is in their 60's to finally act on these feelings in a semi permanent way is the opposite of short sighted. In fact, I'd be willing to bet she has given this serious consideration for decades.

 

[smeck]

Well since you do not know me except for a few posts on a message board...it's not important to me if you think I am intolerant. That could not be further from the truth but I am even tolerant of your quick judgement of me.

 

[jjenny]

Have you heard of this before? I haven't yikes.

Many who don't like their body parts(legs, hands etc) and can afford to have cosmetic surgery would do that before removing an actual body part.

But if you are comparing removing a hand to reassignment surgery then I don't think the two can be compared. I won't even pretend to know about the trans community hopefully someone more knowledgable can explain it.

It's not about being able to afford plastic surgery. Persons with body integrity disorder want their limbs amputated.
As far as I can tell, that is not recommended treatment for this disorder.

 

[Nova]

It's fetishism.

I find it unbelievably selfish and self absorbed to get married and father so many kids when you know you cannot father them. Other than that, long live photoshop and who cares?

Since I am married to a man who married his high school sweetheart and had two children with her, this is something I know a little about.

From the outside, "coming out" seems like a simple matter of telling the truth. But most people aren't sure what the "truth" is. Everybody has feelings that don't align with traditional models of gender and sexual orientation. What those feelings mean isn't easy to say.

In my husband's case, he certainly loved his wife and intended, at the moment of his marriage vows, to remain with her forever. Living as an openly gay man did not seem a viable option in 1963. There were no role models. It took 12 years, two children, and a lot of therapy before he understood that he really was gay and could no longer live a lie. (No, he was not sleeping with men during those years.)

And none of us--not his ex-wife, not his children or grandchildren, and least of all I--wish he had done things differently. Yes, there was some pain for everyone in the transition, but we all survived and are the stronger and closer for it.

The problem is that from the inside, "coming out" often seems like exchanging one set of lies for another set of lies, i.e., society's stereotypes of gay people. Few of us fit those stereotypes completely and yet to come out invites everyone to assume a gay male likes Judy Garland, parades, and anonymous sexual encounters. (Not that there's anything wrong with any of those, but those are just three of hundreds of stereotypes that, as a whole, apply to nobody.)

So Jenner may well have believed he was merely a cross-dresser when he first told that to a wife. Who knows? Even he may not recall. To my knowledge, there is no commonly available test that distinguishes between cross-dressing and transsexuality.

It may well have been selfish of him to continue having children when he wasn't parenting the first two, but it is wrong to say "he knew he could not father" his initial children. How would he have known such a thing?

 

[Nova]

Bruce Jenner was no prize as a human being either, so they were fabulously suited to one another.

When you compare the two and make a joke that Caitlyn looks better, you're ridiculing Kris. (modsnip)

Bruce Jenner was an Olympic gold medal winner, he led a charmed life and managed to get 3 women and scads of children out of it.

If he's felt "burdened", that's HIS problem and not yours. He has had money and resources to do this long before now. He's making a narcissistic spectacle of it now.

And while you seem to be heavily invested in whether Caitlyn is a man or a woman, you are free to believe what you like. I don't regard "her" as a woman at all. I'm not a fundamental Christian, I am a normal person. (modsnip)

I don't know why you think it is your decision to make. Why not let Jenner decide for himself?

But I have to ask who agrees to a cover shoot for VF WITHOUT at least a bit of narcissism?

Speaking for myself, I know it isn't something I would do.

 

[grammieto5]

I'm in favor of straight talking. Children often undersrand more than we think, if someone just takes the time to explain in their own language. It would be a good time to talk about tolerance and discrimination and how we sometimes value people on the basis of the outside although the inner feelings may matter much more.

Depending on the age I might start by asking them if they think they're girl or a boy and pointing out that thinking you're a girl and having girly equipment are actually two different things, and what do you think would happen if you thought you were a girl but others thought you were a boy or if you suddenly ended up in the wrong body and so on. There are some cool children's books about this. Then I'd explain about transgenderism in language that they can understand, that some people feel more like girls even though their genitals make people think of them as boys, or vice versa, and that gender isn't just about the genitals but also a sense of identity and feeling comfortable in yourself.

And your grandfather hasn't stopped loving you you although she now looks very different from most other children's grandpas.

But then is she still their G-pa, or is she their G-ma. Is she still their G-pa but now she's a woman and not a man any more. I don't know the ages of the children but I could see where this could be very very confusing to children regardless of their ages.

 

[Nova]

As I recall at least one of them said she wouldn't have married him if she knew.
And once he married and divorced the first one (because of his gender identity issues), he did the same to two other women. To me, it seems very dishonest.

As you know, hindsight is always 20/20. And how many women are going to tell the media that they would have married their ex even knowing he had gender dysphoria issues?

But I didn't mean to claim that Jenner is an model of veracity. See my previous post about exchanging one set of lies for another.

 

[LaLaw2000]

I am just an old Southern grandmother who wishes I could be as sophisticated and as accepting as almost all of you are. I am of the opinion that 'Caitlyn' will always be Bruce Jenner with X chromosomes. I can never refer to him as a 'her'.

The twist is that I am very accepting of gay people and am for gay equality rights.

It takes courage for me to express my views on this because I am sure I will be booed for it. I'm sorry, but I am disgusted by this whole huge display by Bruce Jenner.

MOO