Burlap and Forensics

bessie

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Thanks Bessie for the bump! Man who knew so much could be discussed about burlap. What have I learned from this discussion-I need to remove the 3 large burlap table cloths I have in the back of my car. Recently used in a wedding I planned.
:floorlaugh:
 

sparta

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I wonder if they the GB4 were put in a bag, piece, blanket etc of Burlap. So many different jobs that incorporate the use of it as others have pointed out. Another use that I haven't seen mentioned yet is in Home moving services. Many furniture moving companies use it to transport household furnishings, especially furniture as a blanket that it very strong/sturdy that holds up to years of use.
 

ssvoogel

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Why are people so focused on the burlap being tied to the killer by his profession? It has been stated several times how cheap and easily accessible it is. It is also more reliable than plastic bags, when moving heavy objects. Plastic bags tear easily.
 

Skully

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Why are people so focused on the burlap being tied to the killer by his profession? It has been stated several times how cheap and easily accessible it is. It is also more reliable than plastic bags, when moving heavy objects. Plastic bags tear easily.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but there is so little to go on, or clues to who he is, that the burlap was something to look into. I try to envision how the killer goes about disposing a body. If I am this person, and let's say I am married, kids, regular kind of guy, do I have my supplies in my home? Do I get them as I go? Do I have them in my vehicle or stashed somewhere? If they were wrapped, not in a burlap bag, this would mean, you get it off the bolt. Or do you just buy a bolt of it, because you will be needing it. So I guess I would want to know, how I would explain having it at home perhaps. If you garden, so cement work, you might have it at home. We don't have it at our home, we don't need a bolt of it. We don't really need it at all. So maybe that is how we have come to discuss what profession would use it most. I know some companies make their own bags for products they sell and do sell the bags to other companies and the general public. I found this in concrete production lines.
 

sakura.shinra

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I just finished watching the first two episodes of The Killing Season, and something really stuck with me about the GB4, the burlap and some of the things Peter Brent was saying with his extensive profiles of these murders. I think LISK might be revisiting the bodies, like Bundy did, for sexual gratification. When Bundy got involved in the Green River killings, he said the same thing about those murders, and when Gary Ridgeway was caught, turned out Bundy was spot on. I am wondering if LISK is possibly a necrophile and the burlap is what he's using to keep the bodies intact for longer? If the bodies were well wrapped enough, even if they're only buried in quite shallow graves, the burlap would help to protect them from animal predation wouldn't it? It would also mean that he probably has a new dumping ground now. His previous bodies have been taken away from him by the police investigation, I would think he wouldn't want to risk that happening again by dumping in the same area, right? Just my thoughts on the burlap and it's possible purpose in these crimes. I'm new and I'm not an expert on anything really, so if I'm waaaay off the beaten track, please feel free to tell me so.
 

sparta

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"Why are people so focused on the burlap being tied to the killer by his profession? It has been stated several times how cheap and easily accessible it is. It is also more reliable than plastic bags, when moving heavy objects. Plastic bags tear easily"

I myself don't necessarily believe it to be part of his profession (even though it could be very well) but I do believe he is a mission oriented SK. I think the burlap has some significance in his ritual style killings. I think he is meticulous in his planning of these crimes. I have looked over alot of information on these murder in the last 5 to 6 yrs and imo he is trying to accomplish something that he deems of high importance to his own belief systems if you will. Placement of bodies which has been observed by others in this community seem too mathematical to be a coincidence IMO. OCD most likely. A deeply seated hatred of women, possibly due to his own childhood? I like others think the GB4 holds the key to who he is.

I mean sure, maybe he used burlap on some victims that were disposed on the beach as just a camouflage to anyone passing the area so not to be seen however I think that unlikely.
 

relay

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What's important to me about the 4 young women's remains having been found in burlap bags is that although they are easy to obtain, it seems uncommon for murder victims to be placed in them. That sets the murderer apart and also appears to be a signature.
 

No it's not

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Why are people so focused on the burlap being tied to the killer by his profession? It has been stated several times how cheap and easily accessible it is. It is also more reliable than plastic bags, when moving heavy objects. Plastic bags tear easily.

Burlap is easier to trace back (trace evidence, manufacturer etc.) than plastic. I am in particular interested to know, if the soil around the remains was possibly showing unusual amounts of peat moss for example.

-Nin
 

ssvoogel

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Burlap is easier to trace back (trace evidence, manufacturer etc.) than plastic. I am in particular interested to know, if the soil around the remains was possibly showing unusual amounts of peat moss for example.

-Nin

It is still easily accessible. Regardless of how easy it is to trace, burlap is sold in more places people think. And if you buy it at Home Depot, and pay cash, nobody will know. Also, burlap blends with the bushes, surroundings, unlike plastic. Which makes it not look out of place as much.
 

No it's not

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It is still easily accessible. Regardless of how easy it is to trace, burlap is sold in more places people think. And if you buy it at Home Depot, and pay cash, nobody will know. Also, burlap blends with the bushes, surroundings, unlike plastic. Which makes it not look out of place as much.

The burlap material may contain traces of out of the area soil components, paint, potatoes or any other material - if it had been used previously.

-Nin
 

kat913

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Geez I have learned more about burlap than I have ever known!!

Actually he had a brillant (yet morbid) idea.

It's a strong, breathable material....which makes for easy carrying (plastic bags vulnerable to breaking)....allows "organic material" to decay...keeps it moist yet breathable for oxygen to penetrate.

It's biodegradeable and blends in with the environment both before and after decay.

That's why I believe one SK who happened upon a different idea after plastic.

Wonder if he has abandoned this because it is so unusual?
 

Super Sleuth

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I'm curious to know how the burlap bags were connected to Bissett when there are so many different types of burlap bags. Why was Jim Bissett a target when anyone can just order so many burlap bags? Speaking of Jim Bissett does anyone know what his suicide note said?
 

Super Sleuth

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Perhaps he would walk his dog down that road from time to time and stop and look at his victims and get a rush out of it. I'm sure he's already found a new location for his next victim(s).
 

dotr

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Posting this in response to an excellent post in the general discussion thread, where the poster suggests a connection between bodies in burlap and religion.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...isodes-1-and-2/page29&p=12941356#post12941356
Tricia,
Thank you for this forum. I'm posting this again (shorter version) because originally I didn't know where to post it. Someone asked if I had passed this on to the producers of the show? I didn't know how. I posted it on Peter Brendt's forum. I'll get the hang of this soon, I promise. Thx, everyone.

I'm a retired MD, but I was not a silver spoon child. I've been interested in investigative techniques & profiling for as long as I can recall. I often wished I had chosen forensic pathology as a specialty, but I have studied some.

I noted that each time the Gilgo Beach 4 murders were discussed on A&E's The Killing Season, it was stated that the four victims were "wrapped carefully in burlap". This caught my attention, because the reporter shown on A&E held up a burlap sack, stating they were "stuffed in a burlap sack like this". Her statement was strikingly different from every other comment made. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems they were carefully wrapped in burlap.

This brings to mind two things to me:
1) My father was a furniture upholsterer. He was a brilliant artist even with furniture. But, burlap comes in "Bolts" or large rolls. I read in a forum post that it was reported by police that they thought the perpetrator had access to large amounts of burlap. The Bolts they are shipped in are large and EVERY upholsterer & Furniture Company purchases their burlap in these huge Rolls.
2) Secondly, it reminds me of something a murderer who has deeply twisted scripture in to his thinking. "Sack Cloth" is a religious inference, and burlap is basically a type of sack cloth. Were any ashes either near the bodies or buried with the bodies? Or, were the ladies burned or clothing burned?

These 4 ladies were killed by the same murderer. It seems to me that the killer in this case was a very Organized Killer. He is meticulous. So are upholsterers. (Disorganized killers are not meticulous & they rip bodies & dismember bodies. Mr Brendt called them "torso killers"). The bodies being "wrapped carefully" in burlap cries of meticulous work that an upholsterer would use in their work. This is a gruesome thought, but even the bodies being wrapped in burlap gives the impression of either someone wishing to toy with police by giving them a clue and laughing- by way of "stuffing cushions", or some other arrogant reason. They certainly are trophies. Upholsterers are required to measure fabric precisely, just like this killer laid out each of the 4 bodies exactly 500 yards apart. This was a startlingly precise measurement for the burial sites. If this SK owns a large furniture store, it has taken him years to establish the company in the area, unless it was handed down to him. If he built it himself, he's likely at least in his early 40's. Again, his age would depend on how long it has taken him to build his company & to gain such notoriety to ensure his ability to make his victims feel completely comfortable getting in to his vehicle or in going to his home.

If I had to make my best guess, I'd suggest that this killer OWNS a furniture company in the area. He's a church-going citizen and well-thought of in the community. These burial sites were shoved right in the faces of the police & the community. He is narcissistic (most serial killers are), but is Organized & meticulous. He doesn't think he'll ever be caught. His good standing in the community also gave him credibility with the victims. We know that SK's have learned how to make their victims feel comfortable. He has probably advertised on local or even regional TV in the area. If this is correct, he has a lot of money, and can travel. This killer is particularly dangerous due to the things I've mentioned above. I hesitated stating that, because he will possibly read this & get great pleasure from it. However, I couldn't care much less for his feelings. The community needs to be on alert for someone like I've described.

One last note. Mr Brendt mentioned that the burial sites are not the only "trophies" of the SK in this case. That's correct. SK's keep a trophy somewhere they have access to in order to allow them to relive the killing & the excitement of their horrid acts.

I realize I'm new to this website & forum, but I hope that at least my observations might help to jog someone's memory or give more clues to help find the killer.
docrocker


( wow) imo.
[url]http://biblehub.com/isaiah/32-11.htm


[/URL]
 

docrocker

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Why are people so focused on the burlap being tied to the killer by his profession? It has been stated several times how cheap and easily accessible it is. It is also more reliable than plastic bags, when moving heavy objects. Plastic bags tear easily.

Great question ssvoogel. I'm one of those people focused on the burlap. It's not a common item used, just as you noted. You're exactly right about the plastic bags (although the victims were reportedly "carefully wrapped" in the burlap...and not in sacks, unless the information was incorrect. If you'll see my post, it would be better than restating it here. It's just that the precision with the body placement along with other clues that caused me to take notice. Also, there is a "bolt" or large "roll" of black plastic used in construction that won't tear. It's used to insulate walls from moisture such as in basement walls next to underground concrete next to those walls.

SK's like to "toy" with everyone, and especially police. They're incredibly narcissistic & they leave clues. Oooops.. Please, forgive me. I hope that I didn't come off as if I were lecturing you? I'm a retired MD. Everyone on here knows about SK's arrogance. I apologize. I should have just suggested reading my post.

Thank you for being patient until I get used to posting here.
 

docrocker

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I can't speak for anyone else here, but there is so little to go on, or clues to who he is, that the burlap was something to look into. I try to envision how the killer goes about disposing a body. If I am this person, and let's say I am married, kids, regular kind of guy, do I have my supplies in my home? Do I get them as I go? Do I have them in my vehicle or stashed somewhere? If they were wrapped, not in a burlap bag, this would mean, you get it off the bolt. Or do you just buy a bolt of it, because you will be needing it. So I guess I would want to know, how I would explain having it at home perhaps. If you garden, so cement work, you might have it at home. We don't have it at our home, we don't need a bolt of it. We don't really need it at all. So maybe that is how we have come to discuss what profession would use it most. I know some companies make their own bags for products they sell and do sell the bags to other companies and the general public. I found this in concrete production lines.

Great post! You know, the fact that the SK used burlap also gave me pause after reading your post. Burlap is extremely porous. In fact, it's just jute threads used to make a material similar to a fabric or other cloth. It's just very porous; therefore, it's NOT what I would ever think of using if I were concerned about blood dripping in a car, or dripping on the ground where they bodies were buried. I would use plastic, like ssvoogel suggested. This SK is more arrogant than I thought. He was not only meticulous with the precise measurements, but he cleaned up his victims so that there was no blood to seep through the burlap cloth and get on his vehicle or his body. He very likely, then, killed them some other place, like his home or at his furniture company or shop. He cleaned them, washed off all the blood that would seep through the burlap, and then wrapped them.
Thank you Skully
 

docrocker

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"Why are people so focused on the burlap being tied to the killer by his profession? It has been stated several times how cheap and easily accessible it is. It is also more reliable than plastic bags, when moving heavy objects. Plastic bags tear easily"

I myself don't necessarily believe it to be part of his profession (even though it could be very well) but I do believe he is a mission oriented SK. I think the burlap has some significance in his ritual style killings. I think he is meticulous in his planning of these crimes. I have looked over alot of information on these murder in the last 5 to 6 yrs and imo he is trying to accomplish something that he deems of high importance to his own belief systems if you will. Placement of bodies which has been observed by others in this community seem too mathematical to be a coincidence IMO. OCD most likely. A deeply seated hatred of women, possibly due to his own childhood? I like others think the GB4 holds the key to who he is.

I mean sure, maybe he used burlap on some victims that were disposed on the beach as just a camouflage to anyone passing the area so not to be seen however I think that unlikely.

Very good point. I do think it points to his profession, but I could merely be "projecting" my experience with my father's business (upholsterer & furniture builder). This SK wanted to be different, nevertheless. Blood will seep right through burlap.
Very nice & thoughtful post sparta!
docrocker
 

docrocker

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Very good point, dotr! Therefore, rather than me "projecting" my own experiences on this SK, I would suggest looking for the owner of a business of this type you mention.

He very like is though, the owner of the business, or a partner. It's part of his MO. He's meticulous, narcissistic, and burlap leaks like crazy (IF there was blood involved). If the victims were not cut in any manner, the burlap has no other significance than to point to him as a signature.

Very good! Thx
 

docrocker

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Quite thoughtful. Nice post. It's awfully spooky. You were able to go somewhere I couldn't. Thx for the information.
 
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