By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[Tortoise]

Thanks Cottonstar.

Coat missing from chair too.

I had wondered if it was Burke's pillow though because I've seen a crime scene image (not sure if it is photo or a still from video) of his bed with the pillow missing. I'll post it if I can find it again.

 

[Tortoise]

 

[UKGuy]

Confirmation that it was BR's would set the cat among the pigeons !

 

[Cottonstar]

Yes, I recall this photo. I can’t say for sure it’s JB’s pillow. Clemente and Richards were adamant that it was JB’s pillow on their radio show.

Nevertheless, I believe the pillow is all fluff anyways(pun intended), and it probably plays no role in what happened that night.


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[Tortoise]

I agree.

 

[Cottonstar]

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[Cottonstar]

Here’s another version:

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[Tortoise]

Which room was that? (the pillow with striped fabric)

 

[Cottonstar]

Which room was that? (the pillow with striped fabric)

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[Tortoise]

Thanks. I'm not seeing the likeness though, between that previous photo and the pillow and surroundings in JB's room.

 

[Cottonstar]

Thanks. I'm not seeing the likeness though, between that previous photo and the pillow and surroundings in JB's room.

It’s a close-up of the spare bed in JB’s room.


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[archieil]

I was said one pillow was used by Patsy in the morning but it is hard to be sure keeping in mind the context.

 

[Userid]

These photos are always interesting, but are always confusing as well, considering we don't know exactly when they were taken. I know some say "kidnapping stage" and others say " crime scene stage" (or something to that effect), but this is what makes them somewhat frustrating. The one with the maglite, with the bagels on the counter, was obviously taken after the house had become a zoo and the invitees/cops were offered food.

 

[singularity]

The one with the maglite, with the bagels on the counter, was obviously taken after the house had become a zoo and the invitees/cops were offered food.

Yeah and that makes them worthless. Once those people step into that scene, none of it can be linked to the crime. Did the Rev have a hankering for a cup of tea? When it was time to munch on bagels, did someone pick up a pillow off the floor on their way to the cream cheese and unknowingly create a red herring? Same with the flashlight.

Only reason the basement photographs still have value is how few people went down there from the kidnapping to murder phase.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

Me too.

The huge decrease in activity in the Ramsey section perfectly coincides with a handful of very vocal BDI hijacking all case discussion and continually dancing around pineapple and poopy pants.

It got so bad that some BDI I know stopped posting in this section because of it. When it gets to the point where BDI members are sick of it, you know it's a problem.




Not just PDI.....RDI in general. They were attacked, labeled trolls, and their posts ignored or mocked in favor of going over the pineapple and poop for the thousandth time that month, as if 999 posts on that topic weren't enough.

There were a few JDI members here who were great contributors to this site who never post anymore.

You are now mocked and labeled a Ramsey apologist if you don't believe their 9 year old son killed her. That's what Ramsey communities have been reduced to.


That's not true. They weren't turning BDI although a handful did.

Oh...and its "easy to fight". All you have to do is discuss the evidence in the case as none of it points towards him. BDI knows this and this is why the quality of case discussion plunged.

Afraid to say anything? That's laughable.

The only theory ever laughed at, and laughed at for years was BDI. Why? Because there's no evidence for it. Both RDI and IDI never took it seriously. Once it became the fad due to the fact its the last theory not to go mainstream, some people started buying into it.

THis is why it goes round and round and round the same couple things. There's no evidence for it and to keep pouring fuel on it, have to dance around the same thing.

In 20 years this is the first time that most of the case isn't being discussed and I am not surprised in the least that a LOT of people stopped posting.

They got drowned out, got tired of pineapple and poop, and finally just threw their hands in the air and moved on.

BDI makes the mistake of believing the echo chamber its creating means everyone switched to BDI. People aren't switching. They're leaving. Big difference.

Not all of them have left the actual site....just this section. I see them in other sections and talk with some of them in private messages.

Oh Bologna, Pineapple and poop have been talked about ad nauseam long before BDI became popular. You can blame BDI if you like but those of us that have been reading first the Boulder news forums since 97 and then here in 99 know better. There are far more than two things that point to BR. P/JDI have always been aggressive and attacking in defense of their theories (they have the right) so excuse me if I don't feel sorry for them when BDI comes out swinging. An old but now plausible theory that actually gives P/JDI a run for their money. Just so you know, I've not read Kolar's book or Thomas'. All THREE R's had something to do with what happened in that house and all three/two, still cover it up today.

Its far easier for PR, to be accused of vaginal torture do to toileting issues, or both Rs of a sex ring than it is BR playing Dr. I find that ridiculous. Its easier for P/JDI to see one of them throwing her against something, than to see a brother hitting his sister in a rage. It requires more imagination to picture an adult R than it does a kid brother.

Would parents who were abusing their children put them in therapy? Its doubtful. Yet both children were in therapy before 12/25/96. Those records and other medical records hidden and buried on the Rs island of privacy. Parents are abusing the kids and none of the court mandated reporters, report, really? Were they being hidden or was the perpetrator to young to be charged?

All the high powered people and people in position to do something did nothing and P/JDI, think it was to protect the parents only. Doubtful.

I don't think BR had anything to do with the final staging.

 

[singularity]

If pineapple and poop have been talked about incessantly before BDI shoved it down our throats, you should have no problem backing that up with examples of case discussion being hijacked. Your search will be fruitless though as it never happened.

Its far easier for PR, to be accused of vaginal torture do to toileting issues, or both Rs of a sex ring than it is BR playing Dr. I find that ridiculous. Its easier for P/JDI to see one of them throwing her against something, than to see a brother hitting his sister in a rage. It requires more imagination to picture an adult R than it does a kid brother.

Oh I agree its far easier to accuse John and Patsy. That's where all the evidence leads.

Would parents who were abusing their children put them in therapy? Its doubtful.

You're actually saying that children in therapy have never been abused? WOW.

Those records and other medical records hidden and buried on the Rs island of privacy.

BDI likes to pretend that the island of privacy focused on him when it was actually the Ramseys as a whole.

Parents are abusing the kids and none of the court mandated reporters, report, really?

So not only do you believe children placed in therapy aren't being abused but you also believe court reporters always detect and report it.

All the high powered people and people in position to do something did nothing and P/JDI, think it was to protect the parents only. Doubtful.

In the event of BDI, there's nothing elaborate to protect. The case can be buried on day one and instead of wasting millions investigating the case and careers being ruined, just let it die on the vine. He cant be charged with anything. Just the fact a 20 year investigation exists should tell you all you need to know about the believability of BDI.

BDI explains nothing. The murder, the leadup to murder, and the lengthy investigation that goes on to this day.

I don't think BR had anything to do with the final staging.

Of course. Once it kept being pointed out by sleuths that there was no evidence for it, BDI now has him just doing the head bash and then exiting stage left. No evidence for that either but it conveniently saves them from having to explain away the total lack of evidence.

Do you still have him running through the house smearing poop and laughing like a maniac or did you finally tone that part down?

. You can blame BDI if you like but those of us that have been reading first the Boulder news forums since 97 and then here in 99 know better.

That's where I started. BDI was laughed at back then and for good reason. No case discussions were ever hijacked with the couple things BDI focuses on. I'm shocked you would even claim this.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

If pineapple and poop have been talked about incessantly before BDI shoved it down our throats, you should have no problem backing that up with examples of case discussion being hijacked. Your search will be fruitless though as it never happened.

Oh I agree its far easier to accuse John and Patsy. That's where all the evidence leads.

You're actually saying that children in therapy have never been abused? WOW.

BDI likes to pretend that the island of privacy focused on him when it was actually the Ramseys as a whole.

So not only do you believe children placed in therapy aren't being abused but you also believe court reporters always detect and report it.

In the event of BDI, there's nothing elaborate to protect. The case can be buried on day one and instead of wasting millions investigating the case and careers being ruined, just let it die on the vine. He cant be charged with anything. Just the fact a 20 year investigation exists should tell you all you need to know about the believability of BDI.

BDI explains nothing. The murder, the leadup to murder, and the lengthy investigation that goes on to this day.



Of course. Once it kept being pointed out by sleuths that there was no evidence for it, BDI now has him just doing the head bash and then exiting stage left. No evidence for that either but it conveniently saves them from having to explain away the total lack of evidence.

Do you still have him running through the house smearing poop and laughing like a maniac or did you finally tone that part down?

That's where I started. BDI was laughed at back then and for good reason. No case discussions were ever hijacked with the couple things BDI focuses on. I'm shocked you would even claim this.

Everything you have accused BDI of P/JDI are themselves guilty of. Its a neat game y'all play here now, putting words in peoples mouths or twisting what they say, it doesn't make you right.

Of course abused children see therapists. Normally, its not the abuser taking them there. Do you have experience in this area?

Nope court reporters don't always see the abuse and so they don't report. But come on, you seem intelligent, that many court reporters and nobody saw it? One of them was her physician, who saw her 27-30 times in 3 years. The same doctor that took the R children's records home with him. What the heck was he hiding?

No, it was JBR and BRs medical/therapy records that were the most important as to be sealed. Bet the GJ might have seen them and that would be why one of the jurors sympathized with Alex hunter. Do you think that juror would have felt that way about one of the adults?

We both know why its still an ongoing investigation. Prior molestation, no matter the theory, its the reason for the elaborate staging. Not to mention the jail time one or both of the R's would have done.

Now who's bringing up the poop in fact every post you have directed to me has mentioned it? Hmmmm, hypocritical much? I do see him smearing poop all over JBRs room. I do find his giggling, smirking face inappropriate. Poop and pineapple are important pieces of the puzzle whether you approve or not.

I don't hate P/JDI like you do BDI. I in fact trust the info they have brought over the years and cheered them on against IDI.

Maybe you could from now on bring the facts and evidence that prove your point and/or disprove mine. Unless you can do that its just hot air you blow.

what type of experience do you bring to your theory? Just things you've read, life experience, or a degree in any field related to crime, psychology, forensics, law etc....

 

[singularity]

Everything you have accused BDI of P/JDI are themselves guilty of. Its a neat game y'all play here now, putting words in peoples mouths or twisting what they say, it doesn't make you right..

I notice you failed to list the examples I asked for. Now you're accusing RDI in general of doing the same thing.

You wont list examples of that either. We both know why.

I'm not twisting your words or putting words in your mouth. I quote your words...and not out of context either.

I don't consider any of this a "neat game".

Of course abused children see therapists. Normally, its not the abuser taking them there.

Oh really? You got statistics backing this claim up? We know who is most likely to abuse children. I wont bother posting those statistics as every time they're posted, BDI claims statistics don't matter.

Nope court reporters don't always see the abuse and so they don't report. But come on, you seem intelligent, that many court reporters and nobody saw it? One of them was her physician, who saw her 27-30 times in 3 years. The same doctor that took the R children's records home with him. What the heck was he hiding?

Well thanks for saying I "seem" intelligent. No it doesn't surprise me that it flew under the radar. Many believe a big part of this crime was to cover for abuse so I'm not shocked that court reporters weren't waving red flags. Even if they did, it would not be known publicly.

The whole case was botched top to bottom and it impacted all areas.

No, it was JBR and BRs medical/therapy records that were the most important as to be sealed.

Even though you have the ability to know which specific records are the most important it doesn't change the fact that all their records were kept under wraps.

That was my point. BDI usually likes to say Burke's were the focus without pointing out that the whole family's records were the focus.

Do you think that juror would have felt that way about one of the adults?

You don't know what that juror sympathized with or why but if we're just focusing on medical records as the reason, I can see two people they would focus on in regards to this....the murder victim most likely and the murder victim's mother who had been handed a medical death sentence. They probably did sympathize with him too. Most people sympathize with a surviving victim of a house where their sibling was murdered who has also shown signs of abuse.

We both know why its still an ongoing investigation.

Yes....and it has nothing to do with any BDI scenario. He couldn't be charged with anything on day one and it hasn't changed since.

Prior molestation, no matter the theory, its the reason for the elaborate staging. Not to mention the jail time one or both of the R's would have done.

Statute of limitations for all charges except murder is long past expired. In the event of BDI, investigation should've closed eons ago.

Now who's bringing up the poop in fact every post you have directed to me has mentioned it?

Search your posts for poop and then search mine. Post these results.

I've brought up a handful of times BDI's constant focus on poop and ignoring other areas of the case....and you equate this to those who do that and say it's hypocritical?

That would be like me focusing on JAR, you mentioning me focusing on JAR and my response being, "You're a hypocrite! You're focusing on him too. You just mentioned him!"

Ridiculous.

I do see him smearing poop all over JBRs room.

Oh really? I look forward to you posting this evidence of him smearing poop all over her room. I wont hold my breath though because this evidence doesn't exist. Its a fabrication based on LHP's mention of a poop smear three years before her murder and one supposed smear on a box of chocolates that was never seized, never tested, and could have been from any child who had been in that room and touched the box.

yet this morphs into "smearing poop all over Jonbenet's room".

I don't hate P/JDI like you do BDI.

That's funny. Even the BDI members here are laughing at that statement. I talk on a regular basis to some of the site's most vocal BDI members here in private messages as well and they certainly know I don't "hate" them.

These extreme emotional reactions and feelings I supposedly have towards any specific 'DI' exist only in your head. Me having an issue with some of them hijacking case discussions has nothing to do with how I feel about them. I've talked with many of them before BDI took over and I'll talk with them after its moved on from it.

Do you have experience in this area?

Maybe you could from now on bring the facts and evidence that prove your point and/or disprove mine. Unless you can do that its just hot air you blow.

what type of experience do you bring to your theory? Just things you've read, life experience, or a degree in any field related to crime, psychology, forensics, law etc....

Oh and as far as asking me for my qualifications, experience, and your ability to judge the temperature in the air, its funny that you don't ask people who agree with you these same questions. Why is that?

The moment you ask for and receive the resume of UK,Cotton, and a couple others, I'll send you mine.

We wouldn't want you to be hypocritical or anything...you know...like you accuse others of being.

Also look forward to you being consistent and asking BDI to bring facts and evidence that prove their points every time they post and if they cant do it, it'll be judged as hot air by you.

 

[Swirlz]

Nope court reporters don't always see the abuse and so they don't report. But come on, you seem intelligent, that many court reporters and nobody saw it? One of them was her physician, who saw her 27-30 times in 3 years. The same doctor that took the R children's records home with him. What the heck was he hiding?

Why would believing the perpetrator was Burke have cause the Ramsey's pediatrician to hide evidence of sexual abuse?

I couldn't count how many cases there have been that have been discussed right here on Websleuths that involved a child ending up dead after mandatory reporters repeatedly ignored obvious signs of abuse and most of the parents in those cases didn't have the kind of wealth and social standing that surrounded The Ramsey's as a protective shield.

From Ann Louise Bardach's Vanity Fair article (October 1997): “Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well-known forensic pathologist, has no doubt that the 45-pound child was molested. ‘If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, the father would have been arrested,’ he has said. The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. ‘The genital injuries indicate penetration,’ he says, ‘but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation.’”

Note that Wecht, one of the world's most noted and experienced forensic pathologists, refers to "the father," and not "the brother." I don't think it even occurred to him that Burke could have been responsible for those injuries.

 

[Cottonstar]

Why would believing the perpetrator was Burke have cause the Ramsey's pediatrician to hide evidence of sexual abuse?

I couldn't count how many cases there have been that have been discussed right here on Websleuths that involved a child ending up dead after mandatory reporters repeatedly ignored obvious signs of abuse and most of the parents in those cases didn't have the kind of wealth and social standing that surrounded The Ramsey's as a protective shield.

From Ann Louise Bardach's Vanity Fair article (October 1997): “Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well-known forensic pathologist, has no doubt that the 45-pound child was molested. ‘If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, the father would have been arrested,’ he has said. The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. ‘The genital injuries indicate penetration,’ he says, ‘but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation.’”

Note that Wecht, one of the world's most noted and experienced forensic pathologists, refers to "the father," and not "the brother." I don't think it even occurred to him that Burke could have been responsible for those injuries.

Your right, it never did occur to him. That’s part of the problem. That’s why he veers off track so easily, and onto the sex game gone wrong track. Which is a dead end.

Dr. Wecht, was most likely right about the father being arrested if JonBenet was taken to the hospital.

So, whether it was BR or JR, who was responsible for the ongoing abuse, it’s the motive for the cover-up.


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