CA - 3 dead, including gunman, Saugus High School, Santa Clarita, 14 Nov 2019

Discussion in 'Rampage Killings and Terrorist Attacks' started by dotr, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. IQuestion

    IQuestion Well-Known Member

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    Oh DEB I just had the feeling this would be very close to you, ugh. I know you are a popular person in your community and would know some of the families. Just having you stopping to post in the middle of all this makes me feel less anxious. OT Yes, it was so odd as we waited out the night together 2 years ago on Websleuths wondering if our homes were going to survive. Still trying to rebuild, so many road blocks still to overcome.
    My heart goes out to all the parents in Santa Clarita....gunshots at a school....too much unfathomable grief.
     
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  2. debbiegarcia36

    debbiegarcia36 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again IQ. :) I too was very anxious yesterday and needed to do something to distract me. Helicopters were in the air above us for 14 hours and the sirens of the first responders were non-stop for 45 minutes! It was nerve wracking. I can't imagine the grief of the victims parents and how they are feeling today. Anyway don't want to make this about me. I'll be in touch to see how your rebuilding is going.
     
  3. debbiegarcia36

    debbiegarcia36 Well-Known Member

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    Yes your niece and nephew are at a very impressionable age to learn about this kind of violence especially in a school setting. Hearing the helicopters and sirens all day yesterday probably didn't help. When this kind of thing happens close to home it affects your inner core. Prayers your niece and nephew will quickly heal.
     
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  4. Crazyjster

    Crazyjster Well-Known Member

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    @debbiegarcia36 @IQuestion ya know I just kept thinking what’s next...another fire? Yesterday...I feel so bad for everyone that has been affected by yesterday”s events and those over the past month in that area.
     
  5. debbiegarcia36

    debbiegarcia36 Well-Known Member

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    Yes! I feel like I'm sitting on pins and needles when it starts to get windy! Just waiting to hear another fire has started. Now I feel when I go out in public there might be an evil person out there with a gun. I think this generation will have to be pretty strong not to suffer from PTSD.
     
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  6. Crazyjster

    Crazyjster Well-Known Member

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  7. Crazyjster

    Crazyjster Well-Known Member

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    Although it doesn’t seem to me that it was still all that planned...more like he brought a loaded gun to school and something set him off and he started shooting...still more impulsive...unless there is more info (which there probably is) that LE has...

    just because he was a gun enthusiast does not predetermine he will become a school shooter. There is a shooting range nearby, people shoot up there and are taught to do it for sport. His dad did it and I’m sure plenty of other kids do as well at that school. Granted there was an unstable home life but lots of kids have one...I have yet to see anything alarming that would make people think WOW we should have seen this coming...

    not saying he wasn’t suicidal or depressed but I’m not thinking he went in planning to shoot up the courtyard at 7:30 either...he was set off and committed suicide right after because he knew he was screwed. Initially the reports here said 7 victims and then it changed to 6. They knew they had the killer much sooner then they let the public know.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  8. debbiegarcia36

    debbiegarcia36 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there is probably more info that they are not revealing. He was at the school grounds very early --- before classes started. Shooting started at 7:30. I suspect he was waiting for more kids to assemble in the quad or work up his nerve. The search of his house yesterday may have revealed a plan as well.
     
  9. NJSleuth91

    NJSleuth91 Former Member

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    I hope I don't get too much hate for posting this, but what do you think of this epidemiologist's take on violence prevention? I came across this a few weeks ago and find it to be a very interesting and compelling theory. (This guy also runs an NGO which is getting some pretty good results using this theory as an anchoring point for violence interventions.)

    I can definitely see how the type of dynamic described in this theory might have been at play here, given the background information we know so far.

    VIOLENCE IS A CONTAGIOUS DISEASE - Contagion of Violence - NCBI Bookshelf

    I think your link is broken...here is the link, also gives a good deal of background info:
    Sheriff Says Shooting Was Planned, But Victims Were Random at Saugus High
     
  10. Crazyjster

    Crazyjster Well-Known Member

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    It’s an interesting theory but I think, being a psychologist, I agree there is some violence in individuals that is biologically based (some mental illness is organic that causes violent behavior, chemical induced violence), however we are socially oriented and that is a big motivator behind why we do what we do both good or bad...

    I don’t think violence itself is something you can catch like a disease however the acts might be “contagious” because people for some reason are drawn to the social aspect.
     
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  11. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Saugus High School Shooting: 15-Year-Old Girl ID’d as One of Two Students Killed in Santa Clarita
    The L.A. County coroner's office on Friday has identified one of the two students killed in a shooting at Saugus High School in Santa Clarita.

    [​IMG]
    Gracie Anne Muehlberger is seen in a photo posted to a ******** account.

    Gracie Anne Muehlberger, 15, died after being rushed to Henry Mayo Hospital following Thursday morning's shooting. The Los Angeles County Department of Medical Examiner-Coroner released her name and age Friday.

    She had just turned 15 years old last month.
     
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  12. NJSleuth91

    NJSleuth91 Former Member

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    He actually does discuss this more in the article itself, ie. theorizing on what the "infectious agent" might be, so to speak.

    There are also similar theories about suicide being "contagious" in a similar way which seem to be more widely accepted and I think have even been used in suicide prevention programs.

    EDIT: I think what he describes in his theory is kind of similar to the epidemiological mechanism of prion based diseases. They can arise spontaneously, be passed down genetically/epigenetically(?), or be passed between unrelated individuals from contact with the infectious agent.

    In any case research and just common sense seems to indicate that the #1 risk factor for someone becoming violent is having been exposed to previous violence, that trauma can manifest in the form of violence years/decades after the fact, and that violence spreads through communities and social networks. So I feel like he's onto something, whether the epidemiological approach is considered to be metaphorical, or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
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  13. Dawookie

    Dawookie Well-Known Member

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    I had to shake my head reading her some of her comments. They didn't really surprise me though
     
  14. MimosaMornings

    MimosaMornings Well- Known Member

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  15. Dawookie

    Dawookie Well-Known Member

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    The SSRI angle never really gets talked about despite all the evidence of the role they play. I've done quite a bit of reading into it and it's eye opening. A lot of the shooters who were off their meds had recently gone off of them which is a time period where's there's known to be issues with behavior and emotional changes.
     
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  16. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    That and look at the ages. We're talking about brains which have not fully formed yet, plus the other changes which happen on the transition into adulthood.

    Another issue I have is the 3 stages American public schools went through in the last 30 years, the last being No Child Left Behind (NCLB). I was in high school when the first stage happened, the schools were forced to accept students who would have been institutionalized by government agencies for various reasons, and/or had been in programs run by non-profits. Nowadays, they just take anybody, and it's obvious why: There's a lot of money to be made in public education, safety be damned.
     
  17. Dawookie

    Dawookie Well-Known Member

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    Most definitely the age and lack of brain maturation play a part. It never made sense to me to give drugs to teenagers already struggling that may make their issues even worse being on them or stopping taking them. And then when they unfortunately crack and get set off, everything else is looked at besides what drugs they were on or had just come off of.

    The money issue is a huge thing and another angle that doesn't get talked about. Admittedly, this is the first time I've seen it brought up and it made me think. How many of these kids are actually in the schools?
     
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  18. Falling Down

    Falling Down Well-Known Member

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    Latest from the LA Times 11.15.19 3:44 PM Pacific:

    Santa Clarita shooting: Unregistered guns found in home of Saugus suspect; motive a mystery

    What prompted Santa Clarita shooting? Detectives search for a motive

    By Brittny Mejia,
    Ruben Vives, Richard Winton, Hannah Fry, Alejandra Reyes-Velarde
    Nov. 15, 2019
    2:40 PM
    Investigators are still trying to determine what led to a deadly attack at Saugus High School on Thursday in which police and witnesses say a 16-year-old student opened fire in the campus quad, killing two classmates and injuring three others before turning the gun on himself.

    Detectives have conducted 40 interviews and still have six to go in their efforts to piece together what led up to the shooting in Santa Clarita. It is not clear how the shooter got the weapon, a .45-caliber handgun. However, authorities say that at this point, they do not think the shooter targeted specific students.

    Authorities seized several unregistered firearms from the home of the teenage suspect, but the Sheriff’s Department is working with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to trace the origins of the handgun used in the shooting, Los Angeles County Sheriff Alex Villanueva said.

    “We are chasing all the leads available,” Villanueva said. “At this stage, we don’t know the motive.”

    Just before the start of second period on Thursday, authorities and witnesses say Nathaniel Berhow pulled a .45-caliber pistol from his backpack and began shooting his schoolmates. The attack was launched on his 16th birthday.

    A school surveillance camera recorded the 16 seconds of violence, investigators said. The gunman apparently knew how many shots he had fired and reserved the final bullet for himself, Villanueva said.

    “He seemed very familiar with firing the weapon,” Villanueva said. He added that the shooting was not a “spur-of-the-moment act,” but officials have not determined a motive.

    It was all over too quickly for anyone to intervene, although law enforcement was on the scene within minutes.

    A 15-year-old girl, identified by coroner’s officials as Gracie Anne Muehlberger, and a 14-year-old boy died at Henry Mayo Newhall Memorial Hospital in Valencia soon after. Three other students also were hospitalized. One teen was later released. Two girls, ages 15 and 14, remain in the hospital but are recovering, doctors say.

    Friends and neighbors were stunned, saying the teen suspected in the shooting showed no signs of aggression. He ran junior varsity cross-country and helped younger members in his Boy Scout troop.

    “He would have fun with the team and was a good kid,” 11th-grader Aidan Soto said. “The younger Scouts really looked up to him. He was there when they needed him with anything. I’m bewildered and looking for answers.”

    Brooke Risley, a 16-year-old junior at Saugus High, has known the teen since elementary school. Last year, the two were together in a group for their engineering class and grew to become close friends.

    “He was very smart and really good at history,” she said.

    In AP European history class, she said, he would help her study and would often get the highest test scores in the class. She said the teen often planned Boy Scout trips during their free time in class last year.

    “He was pretty funny too,” she said. “He had a higher-level type of humor that often I couldn’t even get the joke cause it was above my head.”

    When word began to spread, a friend reached out and let her know. In shock, she began texting a mutual friend.

    “Please tell me it’s not Nathaniel,” she said.

    “I heard that too,” he responded. “I don’t want to believe it.”

    A senior in their class last year reached out to her Friday, asking whether it was the same Nathaniel who was on their group project “because he couldn’t believe he would do this,” Risley said.

    “Everyone who has heard about him being the shooter has said this wasn’t typically him,” she said. “All those who know him are really wondering what the motive was.”

    Public records and a high-ranking law enforcement source indicated signs of trouble at home.

    His family life in Santa Clarita was upended by his father’s sudden death in December 2017, acquaintances said. More recently, a source told The Times that the boy — a high academic achiever — was having problems with his girlfriend, who was his emotional anchor.

    The teen’s father, Mark Berhow, was arrested for driving under the influence in 2013 and 2015 and pleaded no contest twice. The second time, he was sentenced to 45 days in jail and five years’ probation.

    According to jail records, he was also booked in 2015 on suspicion of attempted battery of a spouse. The Los Angeles County district attorney’s office declined to file charges in that case, citing insufficient evidence.

    A judge granted physical custody of the boy to his mother in August 2016, even though both parents still appeared to live in the family’s small ranch home on Sycamore Creek Drive.

    “He would tell me that he missed his father and that he loved him,” said neighbor Jared Axen, 33.
     
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  19. NJSleuth91

    NJSleuth91 Former Member

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    All sounds like a very typical history for school shooters -- sudden loss of a parent (with the additional trauma of being the one to find the body), history of parental substance abuse and possible domestic violence, relationship problems and loss of a support system shortly before the event, easy access to guns in the home, etc. I even read in some FBI study that school shooters tend to be above-average students.

    Also I could be wrong, but I'm kind of getting the impression that he was somewhat isolated over the past few years. Like he was friendly with people on a surface level but maybe not really close to many people...the comment from his friend about how he was "doing his own thing" and all that.

    Also I have to say, after following a certain spree killing case over the past few months, it's very refreshing in a way to see the police being this transparent with information even just one day after the shooting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
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  20. Dawookie

    Dawookie Well-Known Member

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    If it was one of his father's guns, that could open up a legal can of worms for his mother in the end because of the state laws. With the way the law is written, it's kind of hard to what may happen.

    On another note, the unregistered firearms is interesting. Are they guns that were bought before background checks started, were they 80% guns, were they bought out of state private party or were they old guns passed down through the family that were bought before serial numbers were required?
     
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