CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #10

[cazador]

That could be a limitation

 

[firstsleuth]

Temps, Heat Index, & UV Index That Day

Noon til 2:00 .......11, in the "Extreme Category," the highest UV Exposure Category.
2:00 til 4:00 ......10 in the "Very High Exposure Category" (8-10)
Hope this helps w understanding weather that day and how it could impact RT & BT if, if, if they were out on a 1 - 2- 3 or 4 mile walk/hike that day.

@PaulR Thank you very much for this info.
post355, thread 4 has graphics for Temps, Heat Index, and UV Index that day close to turnout.
From that post: "Here are the temperatures (actual and feels like) and the UV index for nearby Kelso, CA on the day BT went missing."



^ image on right shows magenta/purple bulge w Extreme Exposure at noon for 2 hrs.
Rankings are shown on a link in CRC website.
From the CDC CDC - UV Radiation - Additional Resources - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic
a link to an EPA publication. uviguide.pdf

From media thread: Snipped by me

@sroad ’s valuable post with IMO the closest and most accurate weather information

From sroad:
CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #9

...

sroad wrote: “The Sweeney Granite Mountains Desert Research Center is scientifically calibrated yearly (and used by researchers who come to this reserve) and located just 2.6 miles (as the crow flies) from the turnout and hike. The turnout is at 3840 feet, and the hike would have gone up to about 3900 feet. The research center is at 4279 feet above sea level, so only a few hundred feet higher, so you could perhaps add a degree or so to the temperature results from the official UC Natural Reserve weather station.”

MOO: much more accurate than accuweather from Kelso or Baker

...@PommyMommy for letting me know we could

@al66pine thank you for your post. Respectfully (and, IMO) Kelso temperatures do not reflect temperatures at HH & Kelbaker roads. IMO, sroad provided a more accurate weather info tool. See above post from media thread for his reasoning and see below for weather link and my summary of the data for July 12th

TEMPERATURES JULY 12:

Low: 5-6AM 78.4
Greater than 90 degrees: 9AM - 6PM (90.2 at 9am and 93.5 at 6pm)
HIGH: 4PM 95.2

WEATHER link:

Sweeney Granite Mountains California

Clicking on Daily Summary and submitting July 12, 2019 produces a spreadsheet of weather data

IMO; it is kind of important to know it was hot that day, but not triple digits bc see my last statement

IMO: it’s important to know that the description of Barbara’s clothing that day was reported by RT as bikini, but LE reported underwear and Barbara Thomas (OAG.ca.gov...) published underwear.

IMO: underwear points to abandonment at the least, and doubts on my part that there were any boots at all..bc hard to put on shorts over boots

IMO: temperatures were not very important that day when it comes to data needed to help find Barbara, except that they cause rabbit holes unless reported accurately as possible

ETA: OAG.ca.gov...
ETA: ...unless reported accurately as possible

 

[artsy1]

Time for action.

Mojave desert temperatures, day time 64F night 43F.
The heat is no longer an excuse not looking for her.

There are maybe hundreds of people following this case, she has family, friends, neighbour's.

Let's stop talking about her bikini, beer and husband and do something, make a group or several groups, contact people with drones, contact other volunteers en search the area for once and for all now that the extreme heat is gone.

How much longer is this going to take, all the energy that goes into talking about RT not walking his dog can be spend in planning routes, walking in groups, communicating with volunteers, make a headquarter and plan all sort of ways to search for Barbara, the time is now, IMO.

BBM

I don't know where your info comes from, but I live in the desert (yes, Mojave), and the daytime temps are still mid 80's to mid 90's, and nighttime temps haven't gone below 50.

 

[LAhiker]

BBM

From media thread: Snipped by me

@al66pine thank you for your post. Respectfully (and, IMO) Kelso temperatures do not reflect temperatures at HH & Kelbaker roads. IMO, sroad provided a more accurate weather info tool. See above post from media thread for his reasoning and see below for weather link and my summary of the data for July 12th

TEMPERATURES JULY 12:

Low: 5-6AM 78.4
Greater than 90 degrees: 9AM - 6PM (90.2 at 9am and 93.5 at 6pm)
HIGH: 4PM 95.2

WEATHER link:

Sweeney Granite Mountains California

Clicking on Daily Summary and submitting July 12, 2019 produces a spreadsheet of weather data

IMO; it is kind of important to know it was hot that day, but not triple digits bc see my last statement

IMO: it’s important to know that the description of Barbara’s clothing that day was reported by RT as bikini, but LE reported underwear and Barbara Thomas (OAG.ca.gov...) published underwear.

IMO: underwear points to abandonment at the least, and doubts on my part that there were any boots at all..bc hard to put on shorts over boots

IMO: temperatures were not very important that day when it comes to data needed to help find Barbara, except that they cause rabbit holes

ETA: OAG.ca.gov...

Good point about the temperatures -- that it was hot but not insanely so. I do think that a heat-adapted desert dweller could go for a walk that day, even wearing what she is said to have been wearing. That doesn't mean she did, but if the photos show she was there on that day and the metadata had not been edited, she was probably there.

Regarding clothing & footgear, I can think of scenarios in which BT would've ended up wearing what she's said to have been wearing that wouldn't necessarily imply abandonment (though of course that's a possibility).

If for some reason BT liked walking in a bikini or its equivalent, she could've been wearing either bikini-like underwear or an actual bikini under other clothes (such as shorts, a shirt, etc.) as well as comfortable shoes in the truck. (Many hiking boots are uncomfortable to wear when you're not hiking.) When they got to the place to take the walk, she could've taken off the shorts, shirt, and comfortable shoes, and then put on the hiking boots and taken the hat.

I'm not saying it's a good idea to hike in the desert in such a get-up -- I certainly wouldn't do it -- but the boots and hat make sense and the other clothes might have been normal for her on a relatively short walk.
JMO

 

[shanadk]

Thanks to everyone for the weather charts. They confirm that the Mojave in July is no place for a senior citizen to be
hiking. I don't believe Barbara was "hiking" that day and I absolutely do not buy that he turned around and his wife had turned a corner and vanished. It's sand and brush. How did she vanish so quickly? No, that doesn't add up.

What is your gut feeling, based on what we know so far? Anyone?

 

[LietKynes]

Time for action.

Mojave desert temperatures, day time 64F night 43F.
The heat is no longer an excuse not looking for her.

There are maybe hundreds of people following this case, she has family, friends, neighbour's.

Let's stop talking about her bikini, beer and husband and do something, make a group or several groups, contact people with drones, contact other volunteers en search the area for once and for all now that the extreme heat is gone.

How much longer is this going to take, all the energy that goes into talking about RT not walking his dog can be spend in planning routes, walking in groups, communicating with volunteers, make a headquarter and plan all sort of ways to search for Barbara, the time is now, IMO.

BBM
It's not advisable to tell other members how they may or may not post.
Afaik, there hasn't been many discussions about whether or not RT walked Barbara's dog.
Just a head's up.

Although it would be interesting to know if he rehomed the dog, had a vet put it down, or if it's still in the kennel ?
After the time that's passed, some may feel she's not coming back and the dog is then a burden to the husband, we just don't know.
Actions are telling.

Since there's so little concrete information out there, we need to be talking about exactly that.
He is the last person to see her. Why has he not even told us what type of beer container ?
Here's a thought : Maybe she didn't have one in her hand ?
If she was wearing black underwear as opposed to the bikini that the husband insisted she wore --- why the change ?
Was she surprised or ambushed whilst changing her clothes in the RV ?
And chased somewhere and bludgeoned ?
If there was any sort of abduction, did the hand off occur elsewhere and not the desert ?
It's almost a certainty that some random kidnapper was not out there in that heat waiting for a woman to walk along those trails.


Although if you're not from the U.S., it'd be difficult to make a search group.
Even those who live in the U.S. but not that state may not be able to take off work to go and look.
But there are still people who make the trip just to help search.

These discussions are important as they may lead to a break in this case.
Just saying we need to keep this thread alive and keep LE interested in finding Barbara.

 

[LietKynes]

BBM

I don't know where your info comes from, but I live in the desert (yes, Mojave), and the daytime temps are still mid 80's to mid 90's, and nighttime temps haven't gone below 50.

That ^^^


It would be interesting to know exactly where RT stood and took the photos of the rock formation.
Just for starters--- it'd give a feel for where the 'corner' was that she 'turned and vanished around'.

Let's say this was my spouse who went missing.
The horror of this would stand out, every moment of that day would be seared into my mind.
I would know where I was standing and would try to bring LE and any msm media to come ; and keep giving as many interviews as they'd allow.

And would sell my fifth wheel RV, plane, boat, and house -- to post a reward, and would spend as much time as possible when not sleeping or at work to plaster flyers everywhere of my DH's photo. (We don't own those first three items --but if we did.)

I wouldn't stop searching myself unless the heat became too dangerous or I dropped from exhaustion.

Plus I'd plead with the media to publish any and all photos taken that day--- of us both.
Anything.
I could not be silent.

 

[LietKynes]

Thanks to everyone for the weather charts. They confirm that the Mojave in July is no place for a senior citizen to be
hiking. I don't believe Barbara was "hiking" that day and I absolutely do not buy that he turned around and his wife had turned a corner and vanished. It's sand and brush. How did she vanish so quickly? No, that doesn't add up.

What is your gut feeling, based on what we know so far? Anyone?

You really want to know ?
A little challenging to post some theories and stay in the guidelines.

The one person who can definitively clear up her attire, her beer container, her boots, the "corner" she went around, and where else they drove that day ---- has been silent.
No pleas and media interviews beyond the first two .
But it helps to keep discussing this case as we may be able to discover the truth.
So we all need to keep posting and speculating.
Anything to find Barbara.

 

[cazador]

BBM

I don't know where your info comes from, but I live in the desert (yes, Mojave), and the daytime temps are still mid 80's to mid 90's, and nighttime temps haven't gone below 50.

That is comfortable ..

 

[K9Enzo]

Experience and/or Preparedness?

@K9Enzo . Thanks for your post. Good point to distinguish experience & preparedness.
Altho different from ea other, I think there are wide ranges* within each.

If you were asked to do a 2-4 mi hike at that turnout in temps like that, is there any factor you can think of that would change your mind? What if it 70F instead?

-----------------------------------------------------
* Hiking Experience Continuum =
Walks to mail box-- mall walking-- 5k fun runs--- marathons--- thru-hikes Appalachian Trail, then yo-yos.
Appalachian Trail - Wikipedia

I can only answer based on what *I* would consider before stepping out.

For me, there’s no such thing as only 2-4 miles. This doesn’t sound like much but depending on several factors such as the weather and terrain it can be a big deal. The individual person matters as well.

The heat that day is an automatic NO for me. To be fair, I don’t live in this area, this is not normal for me. We were backpacking last Fall when the area all of a sudden had an unheard of 90 + degree day (normal temps 50-60 during the day). We cut our hike short and hiked out under headlamps at 2am to avoid the heat & humidity that was coming. Even well hydrated, I will feel sluggish in that type of heat. I also sweat alot, it’s a task to keep myself balanced (replacing what I’m sweating). Some people are absolutely fine and are acclimated to this environment.

I have never seen this location in person, so it’s hard for me to imagine. If it was 70 degrees, I’m not concerned but I have learned the hard way and always look at upcoming weather. Many people have found themselves in trouble with rapid changing weather, and in many cases it changes the terrain on you. Then we can talk about the trails, are they marked or not. What am I carrying, is it sufficient, etc. Those are some deciding factors, especially if the location is unknown to me.

At first glance, this stop at the turnout to casually walk and take some pics should have been straightforward, then they were back at the RV and on their way. *I* know all too well how the unexpected can happen and someone could tragically perish. Again, I never say “it was only”….. Being separated from your group or partner is always a risk too, IMO.

I truly hope she is found soon. As far as searches go, most SAR teams will NOT go out unless LE approves it. I thought there was a mention of Tim Miller of Equusearch being contacted. Not sure what came of that. I had my fingers crossed for the family on this lead.

 

[Stripehaven]

Have they searched a wider area? Where you are thinking of, is that open land or rocky like where they ended up, I was thinking that she would need to be hidden somewhere.

I don’t have a specific location in mind. I’m imagining anywhere they could have pulled off that wasn’t busy. And thinking there probably weren’t lots of people about due to the heat at that time of day so it could have been somewhere with no one at all around.

I’m thinking it could be anywhere along the route where someone might have suggested stopping to stretch their legs, or take pictures of something interesting. I don’t think she would need to be hidden; I think it could just be a ways off the road. Maybe her being found is OK with whoever harmed her. She might be found with a gunshot or some other injury that would jibe with a story of a kidnapper taking (supposedly from Kelbaker) and then disposing of her in this other location.

 

[artsy1]

That is comfortable ..

Yes, more comfortable, but definitely not the 64 degree highs reported by another WSer.

 

[firstsleuth]

BBM

BBM


Good point about the temperatures -- that it was hot but not insanely so. I do think that a heat-adapted desert dweller could go for a walk that day, even wearing what she is said to have been wearing. That doesn't mean she did, but if the photos show she was there on that day and the metadata had not been edited, she was probably there.

Regarding clothing & footgear, I can think of scenarios in which BT would've ended up wearing what she's said to have been wearing that wouldn't necessarily imply abandonment (though of course that's a possibility).

If for some reason BT liked walking in a bikini or its equivalent, she could've been wearing either bikini-like underwear or an actual bikini under other clothes (such as shorts, a shirt, etc.) as well as comfortable shoes in the truck. (Many hiking boots are uncomfortable to wear when you're not hiking.) When they got to the place to take the walk, she could've taken off the shorts, shirt, and comfortable shoes, and then put on the hiking boots and taken the hat.

I'm not saying it's a good idea to hike in the desert in such a get-up -- I certainly wouldn't do it -- but the boots and hat make sense and the other clothes might have been normal for her on a relatively short walk.
JMO

Agreed, she was out there at some point...
Good points @LAhiker

BBM
It's not advisable to tell other members how they may or may not post.
Afaik, there hasn't been many discussions about whether or not RT walked Barbara's dog.
Just a head's up.

Although it would be interesting to know if he rehomed the dog, had a vet put it down, or if it's still in the kennel ?
After the time that's passed, some may feel she's not coming back and the dog is then a burden to the husband, we just don't know.
Actions are telling.

Since there's so little concrete information out there, we need to be talking about exactly that.
He is the last person to see her. Why has he not even told us what type of beer container ?
Here's a thought : Maybe she didn't have one in her hand ?
If she was wearing black underwear as opposed to the bikini that the husband insisted she wore --- why the change ?
Was she surprised or ambushed whilst changing her clothes in the RV ?
And chased somewhere and bludgeoned ?
If there was any sort of abduction, did the hand off occur elsewhere and not the desert ?
It's almost a certainty that some random kidnapper was not out there in that heat waiting for a woman to walk along those trails.


Although if you're not from the U.S., it'd be difficult to make a search group.
Even those who live in the U.S. but not that state may not be able to take off work to go and look.
But there are still people who make the trip just to help search.

These discussions are important as they may lead to a break in this case.
Just saying we need to keep this thread alive and keep LE interested in finding Barbara.

You really want to know ?
A little challenging to post some theories and stay in the guidelines.

The one person who can definitively clear up her attire, her beer container, her boots, the "corner" she went around, and where else they drove that day ---- has been silent.
No pleas and media interviews beyond the first two .
But it helps to keep discussing this case as we may be able to discover the truth.
So we all need to keep posting and speculating.
Anything to find Barbara.

Yes! Let’s keep thinking and discussing...I believe it’s important and “Anything to find Barbara” ...keeping the ideas going; let’s not stifle the discussions

ETA:
Agreed, she was out there at some point...
Good points @LAhiker

 

[cazador]

This is what I believe..

1. Where is Barbara ? .. Dead.. Heat Stroke, could not respond to RT.. jmho

2. Where is Barbara's body ? .. Hard to tell .. She could be right there or 10 miles away or more.

3. 80 Sheriff SAR people with specialized members including a helicopter search for days..
They find Nothing .. DOJ gets involved. LE is in silent mode for investigation.

4. RT Gives an account on media that is almost impossible.
Makes a claim, a Fear Theory with no proof, that she was taken by others..
Then uses the media and asks those that have her to just drop her off no questions asked.
RT Drops out of sight and makes no further attempt to find Barbara ..
So then we have to question the man RT... Victim ? Insane ? Trying to get away with Murder ?

5. LE interviews son Matthew... He tells of their interview on social media and never deletes it.
Gets interviewed by his local media and claims that RT knows something more. That is all.
Matthew is waiting for LE special OP to make an arrest.. That is his bottom line.

6. One other family member tries to get support and answers through research from W/S online community .. We are doing our best with little or no info.. and having to treat RT as victim as LE has not named him or POI depending on how you think of it..

What is going to happen ? LE/DOJ may come in and make an arrest and prosecute..

If not..
What can we do ? .. Go there and walk, search on foot, film from above with drones.
Come back.. Dissect camera images looking for evidence of her belongings.
If found, call in LE.

If nothing is found ? We need another location to Search..
Sinister Happened and then it is a question of where her body was placed..
It is a big desert..

Never Give Up and Never Give In

 

[Kapua]

I don’t have a specific location in mind. I’m imagining anywhere they could have pulled off that wasn’t busy. And thinking there probably weren’t lots of people about due to the heat at that time of day so it could have been somewhere with no one at all around.

I’m thinking it could be anywhere along the route where someone might have suggested stopping to stretch their legs, or take pictures of something interesting. I don’t think she would need to be hidden; I think it could just be a ways off the road. Maybe her being found is OK with whoever harmed her. She might be found with a gunshot or some other injury that would jibe with a story of a kidnapper taking (supposedly from Kelbaker) and then disposing of her in this other location.

I imagine that there were people passing through, taking the shortcut to Las Vegas, for example, but not a lot of people out and about. But what do I know? As many have pointed out, just because *I* would not be out hiking in those temps doesn't mean others would not. MOO

 

[LietKynes]

This is what I believe..

1. Where is Barbara ? .. Dead.. Heat Stroke, could not respond to RT.. jmho

2. Where is Barbara's body ? .. Hard to tell .. She could be right there or 10 miles away or more.

3. 80 Sheriff SAR people with specialized members including a helicopter search for days..
They find Nothing .. DOJ gets involved. LE is in silent mode for investigation.

4. RT Gives an account on media that is almost impossible.
Makes a claim, a Fear Theory with no proof, that she was taken by others..
Then uses the media and asks those that have her to just drop her off no questions asked.
RT Drops out of sight and makes no further attempt to find Barbara ..
So then we have to question the man RT... Victim ? Insane ? Trying to get away with Murder ?

5. LE interviews son Matthew... He tells of their interview on social media and never deletes it.
Gets interviewed by his local media and claims that RT knows something more. That is all.
Matthew is waiting for LE special OP to make an arrest.. That is his bottom line.

6. One other family member tries to get support and answers through research from W/S online community .. We are doing our best with little or no info.. and having to treat RT as victim as LE has not named him *** or POI depending on how you think of it..

What is going to happen ? LE/DOJ may come in and make an arrest and prosecute..

If not..
What can we do ? .. Go there and walk, search on foot, film from above with drones.
Come back.. Dissect camera images looking for evidence of her belongings.
If found, call in LE.

If nothing is found ? We need another location to Search..
Sinister Happened and then it is a question of where her body was placed..
It is a big desert..

Never Give Up and Never Give In

BBM

The bolded ^^^

 

[Kapua]

This is what I believe..

1. Where is Barbara ? .. Dead.. Heat Stroke, could not respond to RT.. jmho

2. Where is Barbara's body ? .. Hard to tell .. She could be right there or 10 miles away or more.

3. 80 Sheriff SAR people with specialized members including a helicopter search for days..
They find Nothing .. DOJ gets involved. LE is in silent mode for investigation.

4. RT Gives an account on media that is almost impossible.
Makes a claim, a Fear Theory with no proof, that she was taken by others..
Then uses the media and asks those that have her to just drop her off no questions asked.
RT Drops out of sight and makes no further attempt to find Barbara ..
So then we have to question the man RT... Victim ? Insane ? Trying to get away with Murder ?

5. LE interviews son Matthew... He tells of their interview on social media and never deletes it.
Gets interviewed by his local media and claims that RT knows something more. That is all.
Matthew is waiting for LE special OP to make an arrest.. That is his bottom line.

6. One other family member tries to get support and answers through research from W/S online community .. We are doing our best with little or no info.. and having to treat RT as victim as LE has not named him *** or POI depending on how you think of it..

What is going to happen ? LE/DOJ may come in and make an arrest and prosecute..

If not..
What can we do ? .. Go there and walk, search on foot, film from above with drones.
Come back.. Dissect camera images looking for evidence of her belongings.
If found, call in LE.

If nothing is found ? We need another location to Search..
Sinister Happened and then it is a question of where her body was placed..
It is a big desert..

Never Give Up and Never Give In

It is a big desert, but there are few roads through it, and it was a hot day. There's a limit to how far off the beaten path someone could have gone, even "desert rats".

JMHO, but I think the SAR team did a thorough job.

I love your drone idea for openers and hope you can get permission to fly drones in the Mojave Preserve and elsewhere in search of BT.

I'd like to see more off road searching in areas not previously searched - motorcycles, ATVs, etc. I keep thinking about how the McStays were found by an off-road motorcyclist just out having fun that day. I also think of Michelle Le and her family and friends' relentless search for her. They gave up their weekends, traveled 50o miles every weekend, and searched until they found her. It was Carrie McGonigle and her dog, Amber who eventually found Michelle's body. That is a great example of your "never give up, never give in" spirit.

IMHO, BT is findable, and I hope she WILL be found.

 

[K9Enzo]

The DOJ is involved or the DOJ listed her as a missing person?

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, more comfortable, but definitely not the 64 degree highs reported by another WSer.

It's even higher than that where *I* live,.. in Canada.. in autumn..

 

[Chingaling]

Well, she didn't look too sunburned in any of her pictures, and as far as I know didn't have any type of skin cancer, so she must have done something right.

They probably expected to be back from their walk in less than two hours, so it would not have been an extended amount of time anyway.

Considering what ended up happening, I would think it's the least part about the case that's concerning.

IMO

Agree to disagree I suppose.Two hours with exposed skin in Death Valley is a recipe for disaster.Maybe that is the reason she wanted to get beck to the RV.Imagine exposed shoulders in 115 degree heat and sun.