CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #11

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10ofRods said:
But we do have some idea where SAR started many of its searches, based on whatever it was RT had already said. SAR was out there for days after the polygraph. They went as far as the first boulder field (about .3 miles) and helicopters can be seen flying just beyond the uplift that's about .5 miles from the RV parking). They also walked out Hidden Hills.

The reason there are no mines nearby is that there is granite bedrock, so I agree with RT that there would be no mineshifts in the near vicinity. In the larger area, there are thousands of separate mine shafts (gold was found out there at one point, people still try to find it).

RT places Barbara not far from the RV, is the plain fact that's been distributed. Even if they were .5 miles away from the RV and he was mistaken about distance, we're only talking .25 miles and only so many trails. For those of us who think there's a chance that Barbara wandered further on the wrong trail before doing whatever she did next, the place to search would be south of the intersection in the cholla garden.

I just wish we knew what "corner" RT could have been speaking of, in terms of this landscape

Imgur

(Tried to get a good quality screenshot; lower right hand corner is the "intersection" in the cholla garden; note the various "rock formations" that RT could have been photographing). None of this is much more than .5 miles from the parking.

The trail heading out of picture to the south at lower right goes for about a mile parallel to Kelbaker. RV was likely "in sight" for part of that walk, so perhaps a bit confusing, as if Barbara came to that intersection alone, she might not have remembered which direction they came from - if RV was more visible, short term, from the southbound trail, it would be so great to know. RV was taller than most cars, though, so cars/SUV's might not be visible whereas an RV would be.

@cazador, you'll get to be our eyes and ears on the ground!
Click to expand...
BBM
May be nothing....but i'm interested as to RT's knowledge of where or where not there are mineshafts?
Maybe his hiking experience?
Just wondering.....MO
ETA...BBM
 
Jenz said:
BBM
May be nothing....but i'm interested as to RT's knowledge of where or where not there are mineshafts?
Maybe his hiking experience?
Just wondering.....MO
ETA...BBM
Click to expand...
The family did say that he and Barbara had done a lot of hiking and camping in that area, although not necessarily in actual campsites.
Also, just living in that area for so long and knowing their love of the outdoors and experience in the desert, I would think they would be aware of the mines and their history. There are almost 12,000 of them in the Needles area!

Imo
 
Jenz said:
BBM
May be nothing....but i'm interested as to RT's knowledge of where or where not there are mineshafts?
Maybe his hiking experience?
Just wondering.....MO
ETA...BBM
Click to expand...

It's pretty obvious when there's granite around (there are granite peaks/mountains on this walk, even an amateur geologist would notice it, most of us who love the outdoors can recognize granite; it has to be underfoot if it's poking up out of the ground). In fact, there's a lot of granite under the Mojave, which is why the Mojave River can flow under ground the way it does. I don't know when I learned that, but it seems to me I've known it all my life (we would travel through the Mojave to see my dad's family every year, and when I was really young, out to see my mom's family and where my mom first lived in California).

Anyway, trails like the Granite Peak trail would not be cleaned and supported by the Preserve if there were open or available mining shafts there. This trail is on a main paved road, it's used all the time.

I'm guessing that RT would know more about it, due to the fact that some of the mines can be found and people hike to them, sometimes equipped to go inside, often hoping to find stuff. I know people who collect old mining tools and equipment who go out there. There are rock hounds in every desert community and usually rock shops, and the rock hounds frequently go to mining areas. I've been to the Arizona Rock Shop (30 minutes from where Barbara lived) many times and talked to the owner and to other rock collectors about where they find stuff. It's one of the few things worth stopping for (and it's at higher altitude that BHC, which is so hot most of the year).

Anyway, they had been out there before (which is why there's been so much discussion of whether Barbara's picture was from that day or not), and Barbara was a rock collector. It would be strange to me if they didn't have an overall map in their heads about where mines/rock collecting opportunities were, and actual caves, as well.
 
10ofRods said:
It's pretty obvious when there's granite around (there are granite peaks/mountains on this walk, even an amateur geologist would notice it, most of us who love the outdoors can recognize granite; it has to be underfoot if it's poking up out of the ground). In fact, there's a lot of granite under the Mojave, which is why the Mojave River can flow under ground the way it does. I don't know when I learned that, but it seems to me I've known it all my life (we would travel through the Mojave to see my dad's family every year, and when I was really young, out to see my mom's family and where my mom first lived in California).

Anyway, trails like the Granite Peak trail would not be cleaned and supported by the Preserve if there were open or available mining shafts there. This trail is on a main paved road, it's used all the time.

I'm guessing that RT would know more about it, due to the fact that some of the mines can be found and people hike to them, sometimes equipped to go inside, often hoping to find stuff. I know people who collect old mining tools and equipment who go out there. There are rock hounds in every desert community and usually rock shops, and the rock hounds frequently go to mining areas. I've been to the Arizona Rock Shop (30 minutes from where Barbara lived) many times and talked to the owner and to other rock collectors about where they find stuff. It's one of the few things worth stopping for (and it's at higher altitude that BHC, which is so hot most of the year).

Anyway, they had been out there before (which is why there's been so much discussion of whether Barbara's picture was from that day or not), and Barbara was a rock collector. It would be strange to me if they didn't have an overall map in their heads about where mines/rock collecting opportunities were, and actual caves, as well.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there's a lot of granite in New York State, and thus I have no problems identifying it after my earth science classwork in high school; even though I'm far from being an outdoorsy type. My parents probably even identified it earlier than that for me on nature walks aged 10-ish.
 
10ofRods said:
But we do have some idea where SAR started many of its searches, based on whatever it was RT had already said. SAR was out there for days after the polygraph. They went as far as the first boulder field (about .3 miles) and helicopters can be seen flying just beyond the uplift that's about .5 miles from the RV parking). They also walked out Hidden Hills.

The reason there are no mines nearby is that there is granite bedrock, so I agree with RT that there would be no mineshifts in the near vicinity. In the larger area, there are thousands of separate mine shafts (gold was found out there at one point, people still try to find it).

RT places Barbara not far from the RV, is the plain fact that's been distributed. Even if they were .5 miles away from the RV and he was mistaken about distance, we're only talking .25 miles and only so many trails. For those of us who think there's a chance that Barbara wandered further on the wrong trail before doing whatever she did next, the place to search would be south of the intersection in the cholla garden.

I just wish we knew what "corner" RT could have been speaking of, in terms of this landscape

Imgur

(Tried to get a good quality screenshot; lower right hand corner is the "intersection" in the cholla garden; note the various "rock formations" that RT could have been photographing). None of this is much more than .5 miles from the parking.

The trail heading out of picture to the south at lower right goes for about a mile parallel to Kelbaker. RV was likely "in sight" for part of that walk, so perhaps a bit confusing, as if Barbara came to that intersection alone, she might not have remembered which direction they came from - if RV was more visible, short term, from the southbound trail, it would be so great to know. RV was taller than most cars, though, so cars/SUV's might not be visible whereas an RV would be.

@cazador, you'll get to be our eyes and ears on the ground!
Click to expand...

This has been the most useful post I’ve seen as a late comer to this case in catching me up and understanding topography as well as what RT said, to the fact there are no mines in the area. I understand so much more about this case now, Thank you.
 
Has SBSD "Ruled Out'"Foul Play?
Seajay said:
Question: Has LE ruled out foul play or not? I read that right away when I got here but I don’t know the source and I don’t know for sure it’s true. TIA
Click to expand...
Another member posted this: "LE have also ruled out an abduction -- in their own words -- they said they don't have 'evidence of an abduction'"

In response, at Post 990, the wonderfully patient, always kind, and infinitely wise SillyBilly Moderator & Administrator, responded:
"Not finding evidence of something is not the same as ruling it out. To my knowledge, LE has not "ruled out" anything at this time.

I could come home and find my precious gold widget has disappeared from my home ... door unlocked, no forced entry, no footprints, no fingerprints, no video, etc. There is just no evidence; doesn't mean it didn't disappear or that someone didn't take it."

^ Not just my opinion.^
 
Seajay said:
Question: Has LE ruled out foul play or not? I read that right away when I got here but I don’t know the source and I don’t know for sure it’s true. TIA
Click to expand...

It seems to depend on who you ask. MOO.

We heard this statement in July:
A spokeswoman for the sheriff’s department told ABC News there is no evidence at this time suggesting foul play.
Click to expand...
69-year-old woman missing after hiking with her husband in California desert

Then in Sept an article came out with the following quotes:
Family members suspect foul play and are seeking answers.
Click to expand...
"My mother and I were close. ... (We) spoke on the phone often (and) she loved my children, C ,13, and N, 11. ... I wish my children and I lived out there. (Her disappearance) would not have happened," he added."
Click to expand...
In a statement written by several members of Barbara Thomas' family based in Hong Kong, she is described as an avid and regular desert explorer along with her husband, Robert.
"The chances she became lost or disoriented in the five minutes between her husband reporting last seeing her, and him (realizing) she was missing, are highly improbable," the family said in the statement shared with The Republic.
The statement was provided to The Republic by Derek Bullen, Barbara Thomas' nephew.
Click to expand...
Cindy Bachman, a sheriff's spokeswoman, said that investigators were looking into all leads.
The agency's Specialized Investigations Division has assumed the investigation into Thomas' disappearance, according to Bachman. The department's website states that the Specialized Investigations Division is composed of homicide detail, crimes against children and technology crimes.
The Sheriff's Department declined The Arizona Republic's request for public records, including an initial police report and 911 recording, stating that they are considered investigatory documents and are exempt from disclosure under California law.
Click to expand...
Bachman said more searches would be held as new information develops.
Click to expand...
Family suspects foul play in disappearance of Bullhead City woman

Family seems to feel strongly there was foul play. LE said there was no evidence of FP in July but then LE did not take an opportunity in Sept to make another statement dismissing foul play. Some have speculated that the case being handled by SID means it's a homicide investigation. Others have stated that unsolved missing person cases going to SID is standard procedure. Apparently 911 calls are also not released until cases are solved under CA law.

It's anybody's guess what is going on. IMHO I don't think FP has been ruled out but on the other hand LE have not said they are investigating this as a case of FP either. The lack of clarity from LE makes for a very frustrating case to discuss. MOO.
 
Seajay said:
Question: Has LE ruled out foul play or not? I read that right away when I got here but I don’t know the source and I don’t know for sure it’s true. TIA
Click to expand...
Well, in the beginning they said they found no evidence of foul play but since then, or at least in the last three months or so they have not given any updates to the media or stated that they have ruled anything out so it's hard to say what they believe. They did say they would do another search if they uncovered any new evidence but so far we have heard nothing.

Imo
 
Gardener1850 said:
It seems to depend on who you ask. MOO.

We heard this statement in July:

69-year-old woman missing after hiking with her husband in California desert

Then in Sept an article came out with the following quotes:





Family suspects foul play in disappearance of Bullhead City woman

Family seems to feel strongly there was foul play. LE said there was no evidence of FP in July but then LE did not take an opportunity in Sept to make another statement dismissing foul play. Some have speculated that the case being handled by SID means it's a homicide investigation. Others have stated that unsolved missing person cases going to SID is standard procedure. Apparently 911 calls are also not released until cases are solved under CA law.

It's anybody's guess what is going on. IMHO I don't think FP has been ruled out but on the other hand LE have not said they are investigating this as a case of FP either. The lack of clarity from LE makes for a very frustrating case to discuss. MOO.
Click to expand...
Thank you. And I remember reading in an interview with RT that he said he was a suspect. If it wasn’t for FP, what would he be a suspect of?
 
Seajay said:
Thank you. And I remember reading in an interview with RT that he said he was a suspect. If it wasn’t for FP, what would he be a suspect of?
Click to expand...

Again, it depends on your interpretation of things. LE have not told us RT is a suspect. RT said he was their "prime suspect" while talking about being interviewed and taking a polygraph. "Prime suspect" is not a phrase police usually use. I doubt LE sat down with him and said, "Your our prime suspect." That tends to make people stop talking. I think RT meant that police were treating him like a suspect or he felt he was being treated like a suspect. Anyone questioned for several hours and asked to take a polygraph after their wife goes missing may feel they are being treated as a suspect. On the other hand, police have to do their due diligence while investigating. RT also claimed LE told him his polygraph showed deception. Telling someone they failed a polygraph is a common LE tactic used to see if someone will admit to lying. When asked about it, LE declined to comment to the press on the results of RT's polygraph (or even admit that he took one). So again, we are left not knowing the truth of the information we have been told-- did he lie in the polygraph and admit to it on TV? Was he truthful in the polygraph but lied to about his results by LE doing their jobs? Did he even take a polygraph? We don't know the answers because LE isn't sharing any info. Bottom line is that since LE haven't told us RT is a suspect (nor have they said he is a POI) the MODS have warned us that we are not allowed to sleuth him or accuse him of FP. MOO.

ETA: When discussing Foul Play scenarios we are pretty much limited by the TOS to speculating that an unknown suspect may have harmed Barbara.
MOO.
 
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Gardener1850 said:
Again, it depends on your interpretation of things. LE have not told us RT is a suspect. RT said he was their "prime suspect" while talking about being interviewed and taking a polygraph. "Prime suspect" is not a phrase police usually use. I doubt LE sat down with him and said, "Your our prime suspect." That tends to make people stop talking. I think RT meant that police were treating him like a suspect or he felt he was being treated like a suspect. Anyone questioned for several hours and asked to take a polygraph after their wife goes missing may feel they are being treated as a suspect. On the other hand, police have to do their due diligence while investigating. RT also claimed LE told him his polygraph showed deception. Telling someone they failed a polygraph is a common LE tactic used to see if someone will admit to lying. When asked about it, LE declined to comment to the press on the results of RT's polygraph (or even admit that he took one). So again, we are left not knowing the truth of the information we have been told-- did he lie in the polygraph and admit to it on TV? Was he truthful in the polygraph but lied to about his results by LE doing their jobs? Did he even take a polygraph? We don't know the answers because LE isn't sharing any info. Bottom line is that since LE haven't told us RT is a suspect (nor have they said he is a POI) the MODS have warned us that we are not allowed to sleuth him or accuse him of FP. MOO.

ETA: When discussing Foul Play scenarios we are pretty much limited by the TOS to speculating that an unknown suspect may have harmed Barbara.
MOO.
Click to expand...
LE put a tremendous amount of resource against the search for BT. I doubt they would have gone to the extent and expense they did in that blistering heat if they didn’t believe she was in that vicinity. The interrogation, and pressure testing RT’s story would be standard procedure IWT. The last person to see the Victim, and the Spouse are always viewed with special scrutiny. It can seem cruel, especially when dealing with an elderly man such in this case, but it’s a necessary and standard step in the investigatory process.

amateur opinion and speculation
 
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