CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - # 2

[CA Exile]

There has been talk about lie detectors. They are merely a tool. They are not admissible in court and for good reason. They measure the physiological responses to questions. They check heart rate, pulse, breathing, etc. They look good on tv, but as an actual investigative tool, they are near worthless. A good interrogator or a good detective is worth more than 100 tests.
The tests are easily fooled. If you are dealing with a psychotic or sociopath, a lie detector will not work. These people actually believe what they are saying and their body will not show any signs of lying. On the other hand, if you have someone who is a nervous wreck, they will be all over the place. If you try to calm them down with drugs, that will throw it off as well.
I believe lie detectors can be useful as an aid to an investigation, but I certainly would not put all my trust in one.

 

[CA Exile]

The best way to establish a window of opportunity is with the phone records of the maid. Find out what time he called her on Monday morning. That is if he actually talked to her and not someone else. She said she arrived at the house at 3:00. To me, that is the only possible way. The phone records themselves are easy to falsify. Anyone in the house can pick up the phone and call someone. But, and actual person who talked to Bob who is not part of the investigation is your best source.

 

[DollyPardonMe]

No. The SIL (the father of Bob’s grandson) - the last known person to have seen Bob alive.

Yes, I know that the SIL was the last to see Bob..But in your post #20 you insinuated that the grandson could have some way gotten hurt because of family dynamics and for us to consider that possibility is what I said..

Your post respectably snipped:

Emotions were clearly running high when Bob went missing, not only about how Bob was spending his money but perhaps a perceived slight of their son (Bob‘s grandson), who was apparently very close to Bob. A person who typically keeps feelings inside, is helpful, and non-confrontational may have exploded after a buildup of events over many months, say if a perceived harsh comment was made the morning after an argument with the daughters about finances the previous evening.

Just something to consider…

 

[dreamweaver]

I did speak with the detective in charge of Robert Harrod's missing persons case this morning.

He stated that they are not releasing information about the phone call timeline as this is an open investigation case.
I asked if they, PPD, had a poi in mind, but no evidence. He states that he could not say, as the case is complex, involving family, friends and strangers.
He said they actively investigate any lead/tips.

I did mention the hairdresser/barber lady friend of Robert Harrod's and I asked if
she did have a confirmed alibii.
He said no one has been cleared and no one is a poi at this time.

I asked if they found any forensic evidence in the house and his answer was that he could not say, as it is an open investigation.

I did mention Paul E's blog and posts on WS. The detective asked
me to email the links.
I have done so.

JMO:
I found the detective to be courteous, professional, and concerned
about Robert Harrod.

IMO: PPD is doing all they can to solve this case.

 

[dreamweaver]

Bob's NamUs link.

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/2706/0/

Wt. is listed at 160-170 error. Charley must be an error on the 140.
The NamUs case report reads like it was his daughter who entered the info into NamUs.

I know that one of the daughters entered info into NaMus.
I think that Fontelle called PPD with missing person info
and that is what is reflected on PPD missing person poster.

AMW has his case online as well.
http://www.amw.com/missing_persons/case.cfm?id=67544

 

[CA Exile]

I hope you sent him the one about the seven police cars at one accident and writing tickets in Anaheim.

IMO: They are out of their league on this one.

 

[ShowMe]

I did speak with the detective in charge of Robert Harrod's missing persons case this morning.

He stated that they are not releasing information about the phone call timeline as this is an open investigation case.
I asked if they, PPD, had a poi in mind, but no evidence. He states that he could not say, as the case is complex, involving family, friends and strangers.
He said they actively investigate any lead/tips.

I did mention the hairdresser/barber lady friend of Robert Harrod's and I asked if
she did have a confirmed alibii.
He said no one has been cleared and no one is a poi at this time.

I asked if they found any forensic evidence in the house and his answer was that he could not say, as it is an open investigation.

I did mention Paul E's blog and posts on WS. The detective asked
me to email the links.
I have done so.

JMO:
I found the detective to be courteous, professional, and concerned
about Robert Harrod.

IMO: PPD is doing all they can to solve this case.

Thank you so much.
IMHO Some faith in the police is restored with the refreshing news, eventhough they cannot divulge much, they are still actively investigating.
That's great news.
I am surprised to hear that no one has been cleared as I thought it was reported somewhere the barber and her husband were both definately cleared. Perhaps the source of that report was never connected to the police in the first place. Could it have been just another media faux pa that was taken in as fact?

Maybe the police will enhance their investigation by contacting Ca Exile.

 

[ShowMe]

I hope you sent him the one about the seven police cars at one accident and writing tickets in Anaheim.

IMO: They are out of their league on this one.

I assume you are joking, as I don't think this would be a good idea at all.

 

[ShowMe]

There has been talk about lie detectors. They are merely a tool. They are not admissible in court and for good reason. They measure the physiological responses to questions. They check heart rate, pulse, breathing, etc. They look good on tv, but as an actual investigative tool, they are near worthless. A good interrogator or a good detective is worth more than 100 tests.
The tests are easily fooled. If you are dealing with a psychotic or sociopath, a lie detector will not work. These people actually believe what they are saying and their body will not show any signs of lying. On the other hand, if you have someone who is a nervous wreck, they will be all over the place. If you try to calm them down with drugs, that will throw it off as well.
I believe lie detectors can be useful as an aid to an investigation, but I certainly would not put all my trust in one.

I've heard this too but still do not understand how a sociopath can pass a lie detector test. Do they convince themselves that they are telling the truth? In the same token, does that mean that an innocent nervous person could also fail? It seems hardly worth the effort for false readings either way. So much for that theory.

 

[ShowMe]

Exile, in Part 1 and your blog you provide new info which is thought provoking and has stimulated additional curiosity. Sorry, though I am compelled to ask, you do not have to answer unless you want to.
1 You first heard about Bob from another neighbor. Do you know if he has any theories and have you kept in touch with him or other neighbors? Their theories?
2 How did Bob's first wife die?
3 Do you know Bob's friends? Their theories?
4 Did he ever talk about places he liked to travel or people he liked to visit?
5 Now that this is practically ancient history, were there any other lady friends that you knew of, before Fontelle?
6 Was Bob religious and did he regularly attend church? Any friends from church?
7 Was Bob close with any of your fellow mason lodge people?
8 Did you ever contact sisters P or R to get updates?

 

[Cubby]

Thank you so much.
IMHO Some faith in the police is restored with the refreshing news, eventhough they cannot divulge much, they are still actively investigating.
That's great news.
I am surprised to hear that no one has been cleared as I thought it was reported somewhere the barber and her husband were both definately cleared. Perhaps the source of that report was never connected to the police in the first place. Could it have been just another media faux pa that was taken in as fact?

Maybe the police will enhance their investigation by contacting Ca Exile.

JMO, but it may be the media was told by someone other than LE that LE 'told them' the barber and her husband were cleared. I think we WS'rs have seen far too often media printing information that is poorly vetted and not clearly sourced. For all we know the info about the barber and her husband could have been given to the media by the barber and her husband themself and they could have said LE ruled us out.

I've recently started really scrutinizing media links because so often they are making it appear they are speaking on behalf of LE when LE is never directly quoted. Makes me wonder then where did the media get their info? It's aggravating but how many times have we WS'rs found contradicting info in the media? More often than not from my experience. I'm personally to the point, unless the media is directly quoting LE and LE's name is clearly printed and it is a clear direct quote I question the accuracy of the info.

I hope that makes sense.

JMO

 

[CA Exile]

Absolutely, a sociopath does not believe he/she is lying. Therefore, they will not have the autonomic reactions. It looks like they are telling the truth because in their minds they are telling the truth.

Yes, a nervous person will fail the test. This has happened. I remember that kid that was in the guest house during the Manson murders. He failed his first lie detector test. He was so freaked out that he was not murdered along with the rest he could not calm down. Steven Parent had just left him and was murdered at the front gate. Eventually, of course, he was cleared.

I am not saying they should not be used. They should be used as one tool and not the entire kit.

 

[ShowMe]

JMO, but it may be the media was told by someone other than LE that LE 'told them' the barber and her husband were cleared. I think we WS'rs have seen far too often media printing information that is poorly vetted and not clearly sourced. For all we know the info about the barber and her husband could have been given to the media by the barber and her husband themself and they could have said LE ruled us out.

I've recently started really scrutinizing media links because so often they are making it appear they are speaking on behalf of LE when LE is never directly quoted. Makes me wonder then where did the media get their info? It's aggravating but how many times have we WS'rs found contradicting info in the media? More often than not from my experience. I'm personally to the point, unless the media is directly quoting LE and LE's name is clearly printed and it is a clear direct quote I question the accuracy of the info.

I hope that makes sense.

JMO

It makes great sense and is what I have been questioning all along.
How much of our opinion and speculation has been fueled by this type of mis-info?

 

[Cubby]

I assume you are joking, as I don't think this would be a good idea at all.

IMO, I think it was just a vent. I've voiced my frustration with LE here at WS at times...... I think we all get frustrated at times with the lack of progress in an investigation and need to voice it.

JMO

 

[Cubby]

It makes great sense and is what I have been questioning all along.
How much of our opinion and speculation has been fueled by this type of mis-info?

TY. I can't say how much, but I can say for myself I try really hard to seperate the fact from fiction so to speak. For example, when something is said to be 'confirmed' who is confirming it? LE or someone saying LE told them this?

The time line in this case for example, is very contradicting, so for myself, until we can uncover what in the timeline is confirmed by LE we need to utilize the wider window in order to properly analyze the facts as we know them.

JMO

 

[Cubby]

IMO, I think it was just a vent. I've voiced my frustration with LE here at WS at times...... I think we all get frustrated at times with the lack of progress in an investigation and need to voice it.

JMO

Quoting myself to add...... I can be as persistant as a PITA. lol.... As a Cub fan ( sorry Showme ) patience and persistance is in my blood. I can wait a loooooong time.... been doing it all my life, all my grandparents life and half my great grandparents life.. IMO, we need to be that patient and persistant with LE when it comes to many of these cases. Let them know we are not going to forget nor are we going away.

JMO

 

[Cubby]

Can someone tell me, was there ever a foot search for Bob? I don't recall LE did one - which understandably so if they don't have evidence for a starting point. Did the locals ever do and unofficial search in and around the area's Bob could have made within walking distance?

Are there any locals who would be willing to pass out fliers and ask businesses to once again post fliers? And request locals - private citizens and business' to look for anything unusual - any sign of Bob?

It would be a start and something productive which can be done outside of what LE is doing.

tia

 

[Cubby]

Did anyone ever contact the media to see if they would do an anniversary story on Bobs case? Even if a short story to get this back in the media?

tia

 

[CA Exile]

Exile, in Part 1 and your blog you provide new info which is thought provoking and has stimulated additional curiosity. Sorry, though I am compelled to ask, you do not have to answer unless you want to.
1 You first heard about Bob from another neighbor. Do you know if he has any theories and have you kept in touch with him or other neighbors? Their theories?
2 How did Bob's first wife die?
3 Do you know Bob's friends? Their theories?
4 Did he ever talk about places he liked to travel or people he liked to visit?
5 Now that this is practically ancient history, were there any other lady friends that you knew of, before Fontelle?
6 Was Bob religious and did he regularly attend church? Any friends from church?
7 Was Bob close with any of your fellow mason lodge people?
8 Did you ever contact sisters P or R to get updates?

I will answer any and all questions I can. The only ones I can not answer are if I have promised not to say or do not know.

1. Not really. None of them were as close to Bob as I was except for one other. I have not talked to her since I moved. She does not want to get in the middle of it because she knows the daughters and Fontelle. I respect her for that and do not ask her.

2. Georgia was very sick. I do not know the exact cause of death, but she could not get around. She had an accident just after they moved to the neighborhood and her back was really messed up. She was pretty much bedridden for months before she died. She was a great lady all the way to the end.

3. Bob's friends were all back in Pasadena. Given their ages, there were probably not many left. We never discussed them much and I never met any.

4. No, Bob was a homebody. It was hard enough to get him to go to lodge with me the few times he did. Before Georgia died, they would go to the Indian Casinos now and then. But no real vacations or trips.

5. If you mean after Georgia, none that I know of. Unless you count the hairdresser. The only other lady I ever saw at his house was the house cleaner. I do not think there was anything going on there. The hairdresser was the only one the daughters were worried about.

6. He never went to church. Georgia was too sick to go. After Georgia passed, he was not interested.

7. He was an officer for several years. But his friends were all back at the lodge in Pasadena. Everyone knew him. When Georgia was sick, I kept them up to date on things. But, yes, he was active in the lodge.

8. I do not know R or P. I only know J. I have tried repeatedly and left messages over the past year. I have never heard back from her.

I hope this answers your questions. If you have more, don't be afraid to ask.

 

[suzyq211]

There has been talk about lie detectors. They are merely a tool. They are not admissible in court and for good reason. They measure the physiological responses to questions. They check heart rate, pulse, breathing, etc. They look good on tv, but as an actual investigative tool, they are near worthless. A good interrogator or a good detective is worth more than 100 tests.
The tests are easily fooled. If you are dealing with a psychotic or sociopath, a lie detector will not work. These people actually believe what they are saying and their body will not show any signs of lying. On the other hand, if you have someone who is a nervous wreck, they will be all over the place. If you try to calm them down with drugs, that will throw it off as well.
I believe lie detectors can be useful as an aid to an investigation, but I certainly would not put all my trust in one.

Exactly...it is an aid. Nobody puts ALL their stock into the results, however when you add it to other information/ evidence, it can certainly help the investigation.