CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #4

Discussion in 'Elisa Lam' started by bessie, Feb 22, 2013.

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  1. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Please continue the discussion here in Thread #4

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  3. corvxdetimor

    corvxdetimor New Member

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    I've been following this case for the past week or so and wanted to begin by saying this forum has been the hands down greatest resource for info. and possible theories. Nice work.

    I stayed at the Cecil on August 15, 2008 - so my info. is possibly dated since they were apparently just beginning the "remodel" when I was there so what I saw and remember may have changed in the 4+ years since.

    Our room was on the 10th floor in the back left corner of the building.

    Again, this may have changed in the years since, but our room key had a 4 digit number starting with "10" (can't remember the exact number any longer) so it seems plausible to me the first digit(s) of the apartment numbers people are finding for the RSOs likely, at least at one time, did indicate floor # - ie. 14xx = room on 14th floor, etc.

    Security seems to be arbitrary. I've read reviews online that complain about their "strict no guests" policy, but when I stayed, there were 5 people in our room for the night despite only two people officially checking in at the front desk. No one in our group was questioned using the elevators and I personally never saw any hotel staff (security or otherwise) anywhere other than behind the front desk.

    That was just my (limited) experience with the Cecil.
     
  4. LaborDayRN

    LaborDayRN Well-Known Member

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    I would think it's because the LAPD was investigating a crime scene and didn't want additional feet and hands to contaminate it before they were done.
     
  5. Figuring

    Figuring New Member

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    She visited Toronto in Dec, the show is filmed here. Easy to get tickets.
     
  6. houndstooth

    houndstooth New Member

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    Thanks. Now why in the world would a maintenance man call the Fire Department and not the police 911 upon finding a body in their water tank?
    And then in turn, why would the Fire Department not let police in first to the scene in case it's a crime scene?

    This makes no sense to me that they would have been informed 3 hours later.
    If that is the case.
     
  7. Qrious

    Qrious New Member

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    The police have been saying/hinting that it could be a "very strange accident" in their own words. They also also said they had interviewed all the residents in the hotel. They are not considering foul play although they have not ruled it out yet.

    Also, the video has generated many opposing views - some see threat and fear, some see calm and playfulness - I think mainly because of its poor resolution. For example, some said they cannot see the smile at 1:58-1:59 no matter how hard they look. To them, I suggest they re-play the video on a much smaller screen size (not larger) and watch the video real close.
     
  8. houndstooth

    houndstooth New Member

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    She is sitting on the set though, where guests sit. Not in the audience.

    Do you think they allow people to do photo ops on the set of his show?
    Just curious.
     
  9. jennydreadful

    jennydreadful New Member

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    I think you could be right--I'd missed Anasie's translation of the Chinese forum post where someone actually went and looked down from the maintenance building. I'd imagined the tank being close enough to drop a body on top of it, then climb down and put it in the opening (I didn't really imagine lowering it perfectly). But since they've been there and I haven't, I'm not too sure. It's because of the "no trauma" finding that we're assuming she couldn't have been dropped, isn't it? I've really been wondering if "no trauma" really means absolutely no trauma, or if it means that they couldn't find any trauma that would have led to her death. It seems like in the process of moving a body, it would pick up some post-mortem bruising. It's so weird, and I often wonder if all of our assumptions are off because we're missing key information.

    I do still think that it's not impossible that she could have been murdered with minimal trauma that was obscured by the fact that she was in water so long, as in the case I linked above. I don't think it happens too often, and I suspect that EL was in better condition than that woman, but I'm not really ruling it out either.

    Elisa's death really bothers me...she's so many girls I've known, and to a lesser extent a girl I've been.
     
  10. medsleuth

    medsleuth New Member

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    I know someone with bipolar disorder who became entirely delusional and irrational. Couldn't stop talking and gesticulating. Her family was able to talk her out of running down the street naked but that's where her mind was going. And that's what makes me think that this could a case of someone off their meds or their condition was triggered by alcohol or other drugs in combination with prescription medications for the treatment of bipolar.

     
  11. Figuring

    Figuring New Member

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    Yes, they do. Especially if you say you're visiting from out of town. I had two friends from BC say they were visiting to the person seating them, and George S came over to take his picture with them on the set and moved them to the front row. There's alot of horsing around with the producers and host before the taping.
     
  12. Ruth&Montgomery

    Ruth&Montgomery New Member

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    Its frustrating to know that we, and maybe even the police, wouldn't have to be guessing about her emotions / facial expressions, if the hotel simply used some HD security cameras installed in more places. I mean.. it seems the very least they can do with all the hotel's previous history. In the long run, probably cheaper and more efficient than hiring a bunch of shady security guards too. According to my friend who works at an HD camera company, all the banks around here use low-res cameras. Same with our transit system. And yet many art galleries and sports stadiums use the hi-res ones. Where are the priorities? Ridiculous!
     
  13. Figuring

    Figuring New Member

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    Yes, I agree. I've worked in a mental hospital for a while so have seen this too. I feel quite firmly that it's possible she went off her meds, either because they were lost or stolen. A sudden stoppage, coupled with any external stressors, is a very bad recipe.

    What's interesting though, is if they perform toxicology tests, they won't be able to tell if she missed doses of what she was prescribed, only if she was given something illicit. So I am afraid this might be hard to detect/prove/disprove.
     
  14. broccoli

    broccoli New Member

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    How long would she have to have been off an antidepressant for them to tell she'd stopped taking it?
     
  15. Peace777

    Peace777 New Member

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    It gave me an eerie weird feeling watching the video 2X that I quit after that as I think if ya watch it too much it will get on a person's mind, kind of mesmerizing you could say. Gives me the heebeegeebees, so sad as this was likely the last time she was alive :( LE I hope is on the case night and day to find out what caused her death, following up on leads etc
     
  16. Ruth&Montgomery

    Ruth&Montgomery New Member

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    I'll be the third to agree with the extreme things that can happen when a bi-polar person goes off their meds. A guy I went on a date with once was bi-polar. I later heard from our mutual friend he had stocked his basement with hundreds of gas masks imported from Europe. During one particular manic stage, he stayed up 4-5 nights in a row posting hundreds of pages of conspiracy theories about the U.S. gov't in a blog. Then he spent the next day running through town, jumping on and off the skytrain, to get away from the KGB, who he believed were chasing him.

    In a last ditch effort he called our mutual friend to come rescue him. He pointed out the two KGB members 'following him' yet our mutual friend saw they were just normal pedestrians who didn't even care about them. Mutual friend said 'I know a place where you can hide where the KGB will never find you.' And he drove him straight to the hospital where he informed the nurse to play along with the whole thing to get his friend to stay there. The doctors later discovered that he had only been prescribed half as much medication he needed, and doubled the dosage.

    Hope that helps illustrate the extremes bipolar disorder can arrive at if unmedicated!
     
  17. Figuring

    Figuring New Member

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    This is an excellent question. Most anti-depressants have a short half-life, maybe 24 hours or so, which is why stopping suddenly is dangerous. Effexor is 99% out of the system within 1 day, but Prozac takes 25 days. I can't remember precisely what she was taking, I believe it might have been 5 different pills.

    I don't know what happens with pharmaceuticals with someone deceased, though. That's a very good question, how these drugs would be distributed in someone deceased. And also, with her found possibly up to three weeks later. I wish I knew!


    There's more info on this here:
    http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsl...Watch/2010/November/going-off-antidepressants


    But I just wanted to post symptoms of going off antidepressants for people to consider in relation to behaviour:

    Sleep changes. You may have trouble sleeping and unusual dreams or nightmares.

    Balance. You may become dizzy or lightheaded or feel like you don't quite have your "sea legs" when walking.

    Control of movements. You may experience tremors, restless legs, uneven gait, and difficulty coordinating speech and chewing movements.

    Unwanted feelings. You may have mood swings or feel agitated, anxious, manic, depressed, irritable, or confused — even paranoid or suicidal.
     
  18. littlegreycells31

    littlegreycells31 New Member

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    I have been reading the threads and trying to keep up. Depending on what time this video was taken, it makes me wonder where she could have been coming/going dressed like she was. It just seemed she was kind of in pajama type or sleeping type clothes and she did not have anything with her...no purse, bag or anything (so she most likely was not coming in from clubbing or something). It almost seems if she had just got up out of bed, no glasses, put her shoes on and wandered around in a dream like state. I too have wondered if she might have taken extra doses of Ambien or something and then just got attacked or harmed in the process of wandering around the hotel alone (most likely late at night).
     
  19. Hotspotch

    Hotspotch New Member

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    What I don't get is why the initial report said her body was found 'wedged in a water tank' and now the story has changed to her body being found floating face up in the water.
    If she had just dived on in, why would they need to cut a hole in the tank to get her out? Why not just drain the tank and go in and retrieve the body?
    Maybe someone has already answered that one, sorry if I missed it.

    Another thing I noticed is Elisa's gesture in the elevator video right before her one last attempt to take the elevator down. She puts her hands up beside her head in a gesture that I've seen people do when they have heard enough in an argument. Its a common gesture that people make before walking away in exasperation, they motion as if about to cover their ears as they walk away. It basically says to the other person "I don't want to hear any more of this from you. This argument is over, I'm not going to listen to it or speak to it any more"
    see what I mean at 1:26
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tma5vPe6EQ

    It appears as though she could be arguing with an imagined ghost.
    If she truly is bipolar, she could have a split personality (MPD/DID) with alter personalties or identities present in her mind, and a schizophrenic
    tendency to 'hear voices' and carry on arguments between the differing 'alters' in her mind, which is said to be commonplace for people with the condition.

    Please bear with me , I will try to be brief and not bore you all with an overly lengthy analysis. This could be important though.
    The way she pressed all those buttons could have accidentally jammed the elevator open or triggered a security feature which prevents people from
    sabotaging the elevator by pressing multiple floors. Maybe the elevator is equipped with a weight sensor in the floor, and if too many floors are pressed in a nearly empty elevator, it senses the emptiness of the elevator by weight, and the elevator is programmed to not move in that event.
    Could this be an option in places where pranksters habitually play with the elevator to victimize others trying to use the elevator? The elevator freezes service automatically for the offender of that particular body weight. If someone of another weight enters, they are able to use the elevator normally.
    Or maybe the elevator just jammed due to some odd combination of button pressing.

    The reason that I mention this is that the elevator's freezing seems to have really spooked Elisa.

    When the door does not close she immediately peeks out to see if anyone is out there holding the button and keeping the elevator door from closing.

    When she sees no one there, she may think its an invisible person holding it, and she gets scared, so she hides in the corner of the elevator. She seems to reason that it must be a ghost holding the elevator door button or holding the door itself. Since the ghost is invisible, she wonders if it might even be blocking the door or coming in to get her. Then she reasons that if it can 'get her' it would have to be an 'invisible man' type of entity, with a solid body which is invisible to they eye. If it is solid, she might be able to touch it without seeing it. Hence her tentative exploration of the entrance to the elevator and then the little hop toward where 'invisible man' might be, half an attempt to defy the ghost by jumping toward it and see if she can bump into the 'invisible man', and half an attempt to scare it away and show that she is not afraid of it.

    Her behavior is that of a little girl playing haunted house.. If she has multiple personality disorder, then one of her alters may be that of a little girl of about six or seven. Anything disconcerting or unexpected might be all that it takes to trigger her alter personality, and make her become the little girl.

    She seems to perhaps begin arguing with the invisible man or ghost or whatever she imagines to be there, and then when her fear subsides she snaps out of it and realizes she's been talking to thin air. Hence her gesture of reaching for her ears in the 'I've heard enough of this' motion.
    She tries once more to commandeer the elevator as her escape, and the failure at getting it to move once more seems to possibly trigger one more episode of speaking to the ghost. She goes back out , possibly again demands that the ghost show himself or to answer her and then counts off on her fingers what could be a 1, 2......3 -looking command to the imagined ghost.
    Could she be saying something to the effect of "Ooh, I'm soooooo scared. (sarcastically) ....OK. you don't want to talk? I'm giving you three seconds to show yourself or answer me or I'm done with you. You've got nothing you can do to me but play your little elevator trick. One, two, three".
    You can see her hand motions of counting.
    Nothing happens, so then she leaves and maybe says as she is leaving something like "Nice try, ghost" , as an attempt to end the episode and calm her nerves. Her exaggerated body language throughout her dialogue with 'the ghost' suggests that she is attempting to communicate with it in every way possible. Or it could be that since she has this disorder for almost all of her life, dealing with imaginary ghosts, arguing internally with herself among alters, she has adapted to using body language to communicate with ghosts instead of speaking aloud, because in the past speaking to imaginary ghosts aloud has landed her in the doctors office etc. This could explain her odd hand and body motions, which may have included 'haunting' , 'counting' , 'challenging' etc. in silent dialogue with the imagined ghost.

    The 'little girl' alter idea brings to mind this:

    [​IMG]

    the above screenshot is from the original 2002 Japanese film 'Dark Water'.

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Water_%282002_film%29[/ame]

    The following insight is chilling.....

    The movie Dark Waters features a little girl who is haunted by a little girl who died in the water tank on the roof of her building. The movie came out in 2002, which means that 21 yr. old Elisa would have been around nine or ten years old if Elisa had seen it when it first came out. The fllm was available in North America with English subtitles. If at that time Elisa had already been experiencing MPD with a younger little girl 'alter personality' , then seeing the film Dark Water may have been extremely traumatizing for her.

    [​IMG]

    In the film Dark Water, the mother and daughter hide from the ghost of the little girl in the corner of the elevator.

    For Elisa , the elevator incident may have triggered a flashback to the movie Dark Waters.

    In Dark Waters, the oriental mother and daughter are terrorized by the ghost of the dead girl, which tries to murder the woman's daughter by drowning her in the bathtub. The mother and daughter only free themselves of the haunting (by the ghost of the dead girl ) when the mother sacrifices herself by agreeing to die and to join the dead girl as her 'mother' in the ghost world, so that her daughter might live. In the end, the mother is drowned instead of the daughter, becomes a ghost, and walks away hand in hand with the ghost of the dead girl. The mother's daughter is allowed to live.

    So this gets fascinating when you consider what Elisa did right after hiding from the ghost in the elevator. Don't forget , Elisa may be MPD, with two identities. One a 21 year old woman (mother) and one the little six year girl alter personality. Maybe Elisa is not sure which of them she really is.
    If she ever 'gets better' and rids herself of the MPD, she will have to face the reality that she is 21 years old , with one identity, and so her 'alter' personality, the little six year old Elisa, will have to go, in other words the little girl alter will have to die.

    So maybe she has this internal battle going on between her alter personalities. There is the real , mortal , aging 21 year old Elisa who wants to be normal and function normally and rid herself of her MPD (multiple personality disorder), and then there is the immortal forever six years-old alter-ego which she reverts to whenever she is scared or traumatized.

    Elisa has recently left home permanently, so the pretense of childhood is over, as the realization hits her that she is 21 and on her own. Losing her cell phone breaks the final bond of contact with home, and since she cannot speak to her mother on the phone, she realizes finally that she is really on her own, and that lifes circumstances will force this reality on her from then on , and that she has to start functioning as a responsible adult.

    But the problem is that there are two people living inside of Elisa. The little girl is going to have to go. Maybe Elisa has to choose which one of them will live and which will die.

    In the end she follows the script of the movie. Elisa will have to die (21 year old Elisa) so that the little girl (six year old Elisa) can live. Maybe little alter Elisa, in her dissociative state, and traumatized by the memory of the film, comes up with a plan to drown 21 year old Elisa.
    Little Elisa is rejecting adulthood (and rejecting mortality), by killing off the adult 'alter'.

    MPD Elisa may have seen her own adult sensual needs and sexuality as a nagging reminder of adulthood and mortality, as she shifted back and forth between alters.

    This would explain why 'little Elisa' may well have scrawled the insulting epitaph on 'Big Elisa's' water tank grave, Latin Harry Potter style:
    FECTO C**T HER SUMA

    [​IMG]

    Translating from Latin as something to the effect of

    'She was a total c***. actually'


    So little Elisa hardens herself to the role of the killer ghost in 'Dark Water; and follows the script of drowning 'mother Elisa'

    while 'mother Elisa' follows the script of sacrificing herself so that 'little Elisa' may live on.

    In this way both alters are so engaged, to the same purpose:

    drowning 21 year old 'Big Elisa'.

    The message of the film Dark Water is that mother will live on in the after life anyway, even if she sacrifices herself to save her daughter.

    If this seems out of the realm of possibility, consider that Elisa may have had a fairly severe psychiatric disorder. She didn't end up on all that medication by accident. Further, as a previous poster just pointed out , she was on hallucinogenic antidepressant medication which has been proven to make people susceptible to extreme acts of violence or self harm.
    In this case it appears that it may have been a case of both. One alter inflicting extreme violence on the other, and the other alter offering no resistance in an act of self harm (suicide).
     
  20. Handslueth

    Handslueth New Member

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    Her foot movements are quite unusual, at times moving in box-like fashion. other times like at 1:27 her feet pivot with such flexibility.

    Regarding what people say is a hand or someone else's foot, I'm of the opinion it is her OWN left foot, but there is an extra "placed" step if she was planning to go to the left. Looking at her non-hip movements, it's almost like she wanted to step into the middle of the hallway, but someone tugged at her gently to change her direction to the left.

    Anyway I have my theories as to what happened and don't think the autopsy will show anything significant towards foul play. There will not be the evidence that LE will need to close this case unless the far left corridor rooms on the 14th, and manifests/hotel operations for the 15th are carefully investigated. Time is of the essence.

    Elisa was too trusting of people, combine that with her sense of adventure and other traits, there will be some who would take advantage of her. By the way for hotels which I stay multiple days, I like to take the 1st and last days to explore the entire hotel usually when everyone is asleep, and on many occasions press 4 sequential elevator buttons at a time but usually not more than that. And you could see me walking the hallways at 3am, or opening my room door at 2am without hesitation if I heard noises in the hallway. Would I go up alone to the roof though.......90% no.

    Respectfully RIP

     
  21. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    February 20, 2013 8:48 AM

    (CBS/AP) LOS ANGELES - A woman's body found wedged in a water tank on the roof of a downtown Los Angeles hotel was identified as that of a missing Canadian tourist, police said Tuesday.

    Lam traveled to California alone on Jan. 27 from Vancouver, British Columbia. She was last seen by hotel employees on Jan. 31.


    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...rist-found-in-la-hotel-water-tank-police-say/

    [​IMG]

    Friday, February 22, 2013

    DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES (KABC) -- It could take several more weeks before we learn how a Canadian tourist, found dead in a hotel water tank, died.
    A toxicology report and other tests on Elisa Lam's brain and other organs have been ordered.


    http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=9002570


    By Alan Duke, CNN
    updated 7:07 AM EST, Fri February 22, 2013


    The decomposing body of Elisa Lam floated inside a water tank on the roof of the Cecil Hotel while guests brushed their teeth, bathed and drank with water from it for as long as 19 days.

    A maintenance worker, checking on complaints about the hotel's water, found the 21-year-old Canadian tourist inside one of four water cisterns Tuesday morning, Los Angeles Police Sgt. Rudy Lopez said.

    An autopsy was completed, but the cause of death is deferred pending further examination, assistant chief coroner Ed Winter said Thursday. That may take six to eight weeks.


    http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/21/us/california-hotel-water-corpse/index.html


    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198048"]Thread #1[/ame]

    [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199663"]Thread #2[/ame]


    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8948751"]Thread#3[/ame]
     
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