CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #4

[FiveFelines]

She likes well-dressed men. Further evidence she's a good girl.

Not sure I see the connection there.

 

[FiveFelines]

Don't judge a book by its cover.

Agreed. Ted Bundy seems like he was probably a decent dresser....

 

[jetsetsam]

Profile:
If she was indeed murdered her killer was somewhat organized. He had a dump site in mind in advance or has thought about the water tank for sometime.
Lives or works at the Cecil Hotel or close by.
One or two organized offenders, possibly young and/or strong to carry the body up the ladder or a flight of stairs or a fire escape.
Intelligent to clean up leave a clean crime scene and dump site. Is knowledgeable about DNA and chlorine in the water.
Has some college education, graduated high school.
Possible superstitious? Put her in a sealed tank of water to prevent her spirit from seeking revenge? Not many cases in involve a body in a water cistern on top of a hotel only in Asian countries, some by gangs and they call it a "planted lotus."
Watched Dark Water was obsessed with Asian horror/ghost movies?
Worked at the hotel in the past? Was a former discharged military vet?
20-30's?
Dosed or lured by killer onto roof, suffocated later before deposing?

Another thought lured by a friendly young couple?

There is another asian movie about a body in a water tank.

I watch a lot of asian movies, but am limited to ones where I can find english subtitles. I have never heard of this movie, probably because there aren't english subs, even though it has some big name asian actors.

Made in Hong Kong 1994

"Chung ngon sat luk ji shui seung chong see"

Water Tank Murder Mystery

A body is found inside a water tank a top of an apartment building. It's not a hard case to solve for Danny Lee and company.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121859/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

Knowledge of this move would be limited, somewhat, to people who understand cantonese.

 

[KellyConQueso]

They're not doing drugs and committing crimes.

Have you been to Wall Street? :floorlaugh:

I be here all weekend, folks!

 

[tarabull]

There is another asian movie about a body in a water tank.

I watch a lot of asian movies, but am limited to ones where I can find english subtitles. I have never heard of this movie, probably because there aren't english subs, even though it has some big name asian actors.

Made in Hong Kong 1994

"Chung ngon sat luk ji shui seung chong see"

Water Tank Murder Mystery

A body is found inside a water tank a top of an apartment building. It's not a hard case to solve for Danny Lee and company.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121859/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

Knowledge of this move would be limited, somewhat, to people who understand cantonese.

snipped...She spoke Cantonese as well as English and was known to use public transportation such as trains and buses.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...n-found-in-water-tank-at-a-los-angeles-hotel/

 

[Xavier]

There is another asian movie about a body in a water tank.

I watch a lot of asian movies, but am limited to ones where I can find english subtitles. I have never heard of this movie, probably because there aren't english subs, even though it has some big name asian actors.

Made in Hong Kong 1994

"Chung ngon sat luk ji shui seung chong see"

Water Tank Murder Mystery

A body is found inside a water tank a top of an apartment building. It's not a hard case to solve for Danny Lee and company.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121859/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

Knowledge of this move would be limited, somewhat, to people who understand cantonese.

JetSetSam -- Given it's LA with tons of movie fans, people who probably watch all kinds of films, foreign, new releases, etc

There are too many suspicious links of Elisa's death/murder to plots in different movies, like the Dark Water film everyone's on this thread's discussing

I do believe it's very possibly a copycat murder, mimicking the Dark Water movie

I lived in LA, Toluca Lake, around 25 years ago and EVERYONE seemed to want to be in the movies...One funny story, a police officer was talking to me one time and he showed me his "head shot" photos album he had ready for any extra part in a movie..he kept the photos in his crusier in case he met a Hollywood producer, casting agent!! LOL

 

[x_files]

There is another asian movie about a body in a water tank.

people who understand cantonese.

Not that I am aware of. I am only familiar with both versions of Dark Water.
Interesting point about Cantonese Chinese only.
Do we know for a fact Elisa Lam was Cantonese Chinese? and spoke the language?

The Asian movie might be something the killer watched and gave him the idea of a dump site. He might collect horror movies. Dark Water would resonant with me if I lived at The Cecil Hotel both creepy tall buildings that look/feel haunted.
The movie is just so sad and creepy.

 

[x_files]

JetSetSam -- Given it's LA with tons of movie fans, people who probably watch all kinds of films, foreign, new releases, etc

There are too many suspicious links of Elisa's death/murder to plots in different movies, like the Dark Water film everyone's on this thread's discussing

I do believe it's very possibly a copycat murder, mimicking the Dark Water movie

I lived in LA, Toluca Lake, around 25 years ago and EVERYONE seemed to want to be in the movies...One funny story, a police officer was talking to me one time and he showed me his "head shot" photos album he had ready for any extra part in a movie..he kept the photos in his crusier in case he met a Hollywood producer, casting agent!! LOL

If she was indeed murdered Dark Water could have given the killer the idea, whether he would acknowledge the movie or not as the inspiration is another question. The person maybe delusional. Are they a psychopath or insane? They however are aware of the water-tank, how to sneak past security undetected, and no how to clean up a crime scene and leave zero evidence on the body.
That's pretty organized person to me not random, nor chaotic disorganized. They have their emotions somewhat under control. Have they killed before?
JMOO

 

[Xavier]

A couple of things my mind keeps coming back to:

1. Her arm swing when she first comes in the elevator.

If that was yourself, it would be indicative about feeling up or good about some recent or impending experience or event.

For Elisa, maybe she'd recently met or spent some time (I don't necessarily mean sexual) with someone she liked, or she'd just had a positive experience, like interacting with one or more people on the roof, or she was on her way to meet one or more people that she liked, or she was looking forward to going to a speakeasy in a little while. Or the cocktail of drugs in her were affecting her emotions, and she was feeling up for no reason, except for the drugs.

Or maybe she's just come back from the roof, after finding a good way to off herself? When she is 3/4 blind without her glasses? Not.

2. No glasses, on the 14th floor?

Was her vision as bad as her behavior in the elevator would lead us to believe? Or was it impaired even further than normal by something in her? If her vision was as bad as it looked, it's really hard to believe that she would leave her room without wearing her glasses.

I'm sure I saw a news report that all her belongings were in her room, including her glasses and computer.

And I haven't seen anything to confirm the floor she was staying on. So what's she doing up there by herself?

3. The splayed hand movements.

They initially look really, really strange, even when considering her overly, and overtly, expressive nature.

So come on everybody, close your eyes, or turn off the lights, and make those motions yourself. Let's do it all together. And what are you doing? You're searching around in the dark for something. Glasses maybe? Room key/card?

4. Why did the maintenance guy go to the roof, climb up the ladder, lift the lid and look into the tank when there was a problem/complaint about water pressure?

He would probably have taken a flashlight too, because there wouldn't be enough natural light from the lid opening to see to the bottom of the tank.

It wasn't because the water was black or stinky. Those comments came up later, only after the body was found. Probably from people looking for a law suit.

It was initially reported that he looked into the tank because of the low water pressure issue.

In a hotel that historically has had complaints about low water pressure?

In a hotel where one resident reported flooding 2-3 weeks before he looked into the tank?

Maybe there had been earlier events where someone had put something into a tank and it had blocked or obscured the outlet.

Maybe because he knew that people regularily went up to the roof and the lids on the tanks weren't locked (they are in big trouble with the health authority on that one, and the law suit will be successful).

If he was long-term, he would be aware of the graffiti, the bottles, and either knew residents who went up there or had encountered people up on the roof himself. And yet he told, or didn't contradict other hotel staff who told the police that the only way up to the roof was through a locked and alarmed door.

Or maybe because the maintenance guy had heard a rumour amongst hotel residents, or knew himself, that there was something in that tank.

JetSetSam -- i'm very suspicious of the maintenance worker too

I posted earlier that the main water lines/grids facilities for a hotel are in the basement/catacombs as we called it when I worked as a hotel manager for Hyatt

Every hotel has them located in the basement and this is where the main shut off/on valve are located

The roof water tanks are, IMO water holding tanks

I'm very curious, suspicious why the maintenance worker went to the water tanks to look for low water pressure, and did he only check one of the 3-4 tanks Elisa was found in?

If I'm LAPD I'm having a vigorous interview with the maintenance worker to see if his/her story jives

Was this worker on the clock Jan 31?

 

[Conductor71]

They're not doing drugs and committing crimes.

Well dressed men can even use their appearance to commit crimes. See Ted Bundy.[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy"]Ted Bundy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] Could EL have been duped in this manner?

I am beginning to wonder if the perp was charming, nattily dressed and seemed needy or asked for her help with something. I do not see her as changing her travel plans or being in an elevator in the early hours of the morning for a hookup of any sort. To say she was partying at night or having a psychotic episode in elevator contradicts what LAPD has released on the case.

I do agree with what you are saying though. Based on pics I have seen of EL and family/friends and any statements released, we have no reason to believe she would have been on drugs or had any medical condition.

It was reported that EL was never seen with other people, so it is a stretch to say she was going out alone to bars at night. If EL were out at any sort of club or bars at night or carousing with staff, etc. where are all these people now? Why are there absolutely no people coming forward to say they saw her or sat next to her at XYZ. Also, why would it take 19 days to find her body? This says to me she was reserved, kept to herself and looked like any other college age kid travelling frugally via Amtrak and busses/subways.

However, she stood out to someone, somewhere or else she would not have disappeared. This says to me she was targeted; it could have been someone from the train in San Diego?

 

[Qrious]

What you write sounds very good and convincing, but partly inaccurate.

Nothing is conclusive? Not true. I can conclude that Elisa was in the elevator at the time of the video. I can conclude that she pressed the elevator buttons and waited for the doors to close. I can conclude she went missing on February 1st.

There are no stupid and uninformed posts here? It may sound good and appease people here, but it's not true either.

I don't think a few people are trying their best at "unravelling this great mystery". I think some people are using it to indulge in their fantasies. A coincidence is not enough to postulate a theory. Sure, you can argue that it resembles the movie "Dark Water", or that the numbers in the middle are similar to passages in the Bible that pertain to water. But it is a HUGE leap to imply that she killed herself based on these premises. In fact, you need to check your theories with known facts, think about the underlying assumptions, and to decide how likely these assumptions are. If she wanted to kill herself at that particular time in the video, why did she wait for the elevator doors to close? You can't explain everything away with, "She was crazy" (or pyschotic, or on drugs, and so on). In fact, I think it's an insult to Elisa's memory to do so, not to mention what her parents would think of people calling their child's death a hoax, or somehow they were responsible. A coincidence is not "reasonable basis".

Rather than posting whatever you can think of for "critical examination" from others, I think people need to use their own critical thinking skills before posting. Like I said, it's fine to post a coincidence for what it is - but leave it at that. If more facts come out that she was obsessed with bible passages and was suicidal, then posting a theory becomes better received.

This isn't to say foul play theories are better. There have been many conspiracy theories such as Asian triads, CIA, and so on that are technically foul play, but also fall into the "wide side". I think most people in the thread can handle the occasional far-fetched theory, but there's been so many lately that it's become cluttered. Perhaps a separate forum can be created, "Alternate Theories", and a thread created for the Elisa Lam case. I'm sure it would be popular.

There is one positive thing about the wild theories - I now have a greater understanding of how some juries can screw up verdicts.

Yes, I think you've made a good point. And it is easy to be carried away with the coincidences and "wild" theories. In fact, I was also thinking that a separate thread is the solution. At least it would make it more manageable and easier to follow, given the tremendous interest in this case. Can Mod please look into this? Thanks

 

[morphee]

Not that I am aware of. I am only familiar with both versions of Dark Water.
Interesting point about Cantonese Chinese only.
Do we know for a fact Elisa Lam was Cantonese Chinese? and spoke the language?

The Asian movie might be something the killer watched and gave him the idea of a dump site. He might collect horror movies. Dark Water would resonant with me if I lived at The Cecil Hotel both creepy tall buildings that look/feel haunted.
The movie is just so sad and creepy.

We know for sure she spoke Cantonese, it was on her Missing poster.

 

[FutzBucket]

Profile:
If she was indeed murdered her killer was somewhat organized. He had a dump site in mind in advance or has thought about the water tank for sometime.
Lives or works at the Cecil Hotel or close by.
One or two organized offenders, possibly young and/or strong to carry the body up the ladder or a flight of stairs or a fire escape.
Intelligent to clean up leave a clean crime scene and dump site. Is knowledgeable about DNA and chlorine in the water.
Has some college education, graduated high school.
Possible superstitious? Put her in a sealed tank of water to prevent her spirit from seeking revenge? Not many cases in involve a body in a water cistern on top of a hotel only in Asian countries, some by gangs and they call it a "planted lotus."
Watched Dark Water was obsessed with Asian horror/ghost movies?
Worked at the hotel in the past? Was a former discharged military vet?
20-30's?
Dosed or lured by killer onto roof, suffocated later before deposing?

Another thought lured by a friendly young couple?

I think you're on the right track. Consider the tank was for containment, and not for murder.

 

[Conductor71]

Yes, I think you've made a good point. And it is easy to be carried away with the coincidences and "wild" theories. In fact, I was also thinking that a separate thread is the solution. At least it would make it more manageable and easier to follow, given the tremendous interest in this case. Can Mod please look into this? Thanks

Thank you, for suggesting this! It has become impossible to keep up with what is based on LAPD based info; really that is all we should be using to inform our ideas.

Is there a way to create stickies of info released by police or other third party authoritative sources like LA Times or other major news reporting services? We could update if any more info is officially released. Some questions expressed even as late as this morning were addressed by LAPD before LE was found. It might be handy for people to refer before posting.

 

[x_files]

I think you're on the right track. Consider the tank was for containment, and not for murder.

I think the 15th Floor is a strong possibility for many options for containment as well. Empty rooms, closets, abandoned unmonitored space with no security cameras.
I do feel she was placed in the cistern either knocked unconscious by drugs or already deceased. I tend to lean to already deceased since there was no water found in the lungs (that we know of).
I am anxiously awaiting the toxicology report .

 

[Xavier]

Well dressed men can even use their appearance to commit crimes. See Ted Bundy.Ted Bundy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Could EL have been duped in this manner?

I am beginning to wonder if the perp was charming, nattily dressed and seemed needy or asked for her help with something. I do not see her as changing her travel plans or being in an elevator in the early hours of the morning for a hookup of any sort. To say she was partying at night or having a psychotic episode in elevator contradicts what LAPD has released on the case.

I do agree with what you are saying though. Based on pics I have seen of EL and family/friends and any statements released, we have no reason to believe she would have been on drugs or had any medical condition.

It was reported that EL was never seen with other people, so it is a stretch to say she was going out alone to bars at night. If EL were out at any sort of club or bars at night or carousing with staff, etc. where are all these people now? Why are there absolutely no people coming forward to say they saw her or sat next to her at XYZ. Also, why would it take 19 days to find her body? This says to me she was reserved, kept to herself and looked like any other college age kid travelling frugally via Amtrak and busses/subways.

However, she stood out to someone, somewhere or else she would not have disappeared. This says to me she was targeted; it could have been someone from the train in San Diego?

The bookstore staffer down the street from the Cecil did recall meeting, talking to Elisa and some of the hotel staff recalled seeing her around

The West Coast trip was probably her biggest adventure, a big leap for a 21 yr old woman, out exploring the world alone

She was very engaging, even to strangers, from what friends said about her

I wish the edical examiner can give a fairly precise time of death and also cause of death

No marks, wounds were on her body, but I'm wondering if someone killed her by suffocation which is really hard to detect and only a very thorough autopsy would reveal this

There's no clean up and if done by a pillow, the sounds could be muffled

Or the killer might've used a Glad Bag or Glad plastic wrapping?

Just some thoughts, I hope they find something more and some people who saw her

 

[Borris]

Doesn't the "hold door" button work as long as it's not manually deactivated/disabled? You would have at least to push it twice, one time to actually hold the door and a second time to close it again.

I'm speaking from my own experience with "Hold Door" buttons living in big apartment complexes over the years. They would work for me only as long as I kept the button pressed. Then when I'd let off, the door would close.

 

[FiveFelines]

Thank you, for suggesting this! It has become impossible to keep up with what is based on LAPD based info; really that is all we should be using to inform our ideas.

Is there a way to create stickies of info released by police or other third party authoritative sources like LA Times or other major news reporting services? We could update if any more info is officially released. Some questions expressed even as late as this morning were addressed by LAPD before LE was found. It might be handy for people to refer before posting.

There is a separate thread for media/LE info: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200039"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200039[/ame]

 

[summer_breeze]

Yes, I think you've made a good point. And it is easy to be carried away with the coincidences and "wild" theories. In fact, I was also thinking that a separate thread is the solution. At least it would make it more manageable and easier to follow, given the tremendous interest in this case. Can Mod please look into this? Thanks

Thanks Qrious! And all....

We are discussing options amongst the Administration and Moderators as I type. Patience with us please, for an answer!

 

[Xavier]

Thank you, for suggesting this! It has become impossible to keep up with what is based on LAPD based info; really that is all we should be using to inform our ideas.

Is there a way to create stickies of info released by police or other third party authoritative sources like LA Times or other major news reporting services? We could update if any more info is officially released. Some questions expressed even as late as this morning were addressed by LAPD before LE was found. It might be handy for people to refer before posting.

Thanks Conductor -- This is a stretch...LOL.. but one of the Chinese rituals for burial is a long cleansing of the naked body in water

If she actually was killed, as I strongly believe, the killer/perp is someone very witty, very clever and obviously evil, sinister

And knows about the hotel and its facilities, places to hide someone undetected dead or as a hostage

I do not believe at all Elisa climbed a fire escape ladder -- with bad vision and incredibly dangerous - to get into the tanks

She was placed in the tanks completely nude, I seriously doubt she took off her clothes unless instructed to do so

I believe she was suffocated, not strangled, which is why it's been so hard to detect a formal, valid cause of death or someone injected something into her, therefore a little harder for the coroner to detect too

Suffocation usually leaves no markeings on the body