CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

Discussion in 'Elisa Lam' started by bessie, Feb 22, 2013.

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  1. Qrious

    Qrious New Member

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    Yes, especially in the tight gap between the tanks, and having to lay the body over the pipes at the top of the tank. Surely there have to be some body marks if indeed she was carried there.

    Which leads me to lean towards the theory that she made it there herself, either to run and hide from some real or imaginary threat, or under some drug induced hallucination. This is one likely scenario if the ladder was already by the tank. One issue though is how dark it is at the tanks in the dead of night? Anyone care to physically find out? :D
     
  2. walklikeacat

    walklikeacat New Member

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  3. littlegreycells31

    littlegreycells31 Member

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    Something that always stood out to me in relation to the video was the weird way she contorts her foot several times as she was turning around and also her (in my opinion) bracing or steadying herself on the elevator. In my mind, this shows that there was something "off" about her whether it be from drugs or alcohol intentionally taken.... or unintentionally. :twocents: I do not see it as she was playing or fooling around, but rather that she is in an altered state of some type. Her movements are just too strange. That is just me. :seeya:
     
  4. MesaVerde

    MesaVerde New Member

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    Like most people here, I have watched the elevator video over and over again looking for any clues.

    There are many things in the video that remain unclear to me regardless of how many times I watch it. However, there are several things that I am 100% certainty about. These are:

    1. The item being noticed by people at the 2:28 part of the video is absolutely Elisa Lam's own left foot. I understand why people questioned whether it is another person's hand or another person's foot because to be her foot, she would have to have her feet positioned in a manner that most of us would find awkward.

    However, I would like you to please pause the video at 1:30 or 1:31, you will see her do this same thing with her feet reversed. Therefore, what is not contestable is that she does this with her feet when she is turning.

    What can be disputed of course is why she does this. It is odd if you use the average person as your gauge for normal. My personal opinion is that she is very loose jointed. Commonly, people call this double jointed. All it means is that her joints are held together more loosely than the average person. I am more loose jointed than average myself, although not as much as Elisa Lam I believe.

    There are other indications that she is loose jointed besides the video. There are at least two pictures that indicate this as well. I assume everybody here is familiar with the picture in which she is wearing a black hooded coat (with hood up); under the coat is the same flannel jacket as in the released police photo of her; she is holding a baby blue camera in front of her face. In this photo, you can see that her thumb is positioned strangely on the camera. As soon as I saw this photo, I knew she was "double jointed."

    Another photo where she appears to be possibly double jointed is one in which she is flashing the peace sign in a black and white photo where she has piggy tails. Her fingers that are flashing the V curve backwards at more than a straight angle. Most people's fingers do not do this.

    I have no doubt that she (like me) could easily all her life bend over and touch the palms of her hands to the floor with her legs straight at any time without stretching, practicing, warming up, gymnastics training etc. If the police asked any school p.e. coach of hers this or anyone else who would have had cause to ask her to touch her toes, I know they will find this to be the case.

    2. The second thing that is clear is that it is her. I have a hard time understanding people who claim that it does not look like her. All of the particular details of her face match including the slope of her eyebrows, proportions of the face, shape of the nose and chin, etcetera.

    The fact that it is her is further confirmed by the fact that none of her family has come forward to state that it is not her. They would know best.

    3. The next clear fact, that I think most people have concluded by now but just in case...the door to the elevator stayed open for so long because she pushed the DOOR HOLD button. You can clearly see her do this in the video. Numerous close up photos of the elevator button panel are available on the internet so it is rather easy to match up what she was pushing to what the actual buttons were.

    Many people have said that a DOOR HOLD button shouldn't keep a door open that long. I think they are wrong. First evidence is the Chinese boys who traveled to the Cecil to investigate. They confirmed that the door stays open for exactly two minutes.

    The second piece of evidence is weaker, however, I found a webcache on the internet entitled, "Hydraulic Elevator Data Forms," I don't know if I can post the url because I don't understand the details of the user rules for this forum. But on that webpage, which is a form that a professional elevator company has its clients fill out with their information and elevator setting preferences, there is a specific reference to the DOOR HOLD button.

    The DOOR HOLD option gives two choices, switch or button. With the choice of button, it states, "max hold=120 seconds." Of course, this does not directly tell us anything about the elevator that Elisa rode in. However, it does add further evidence that two minutes is either industry standard or common or at least a possible amount of time for the DOOR HOLD button to keep an elevator door open. This sheet also indicates that the customer can choose how long they would like this button to keep the door open with two minutes being the maximum and no minimum being noted.

    Elisa pressed this button once at 0:12 and then again (repeatedly) between 1:35 to 1:49.

    This easily explains why the door wouldn't close. The Youtube video timer then shows the door beginning to close at about the 2:58 mark. Assuming the elevator was operating independently, this could mean one of two things. First, the hotel had the DOOR HOLD button set for about a minute. Or second, the elevator camera is motion activated.

    If you watch the elevator door as it begins to open at 2:58, you will see that it seems to go from completely closed to several inches open. This probably indicates that the camera is motion detector activated and did not engage until it saw motion, so it missed the intial opening of the door for long enough that the first inch or two of the door opening were not recorded.

    So the camera could have been inactive for a period of about a minute. The police will know this for sure if they are doing their jobs.

    It is not necessary to postulate that somebody was nefariously controlling the elevator for their own amusement or to commit a crime against Elisa Lam.

    4. I do not know if Elisa Lam was under the influence of alchohol or drugs. However, I think if you watch the video clearly, you can see that she was not drunk or drugged to a high degree.

    I say this because of the movement she does at 0:57. She has her back to the elevator door. She steps quickly to position herself perfectly at the center of the open elevator door. She begins the motion of stepping backwards into the elevator and then (after she begins to step back) she quickly glances over her left shoulder to confirm where her body is relative to the open door, then she surely completes her motion.

    Most people who are severely compromised by drugs or alcohol do not even have a clear grasp of area/depth of their surroundings in front of them which they can see, not to mention if they could have that much understanding of where they are relative to objects behind them which they are not looking at.

    Of course, I think she would have had either direct or peripheral reference because of the mirror to her left front. However, even using that as a reference, her movements are too sure to be that of a severely compromised individual.

    So I think that in fairness to her, I would like to see discounted the suggestions that this video shows that she crawled into the water tank because she was high or drunk.

    5. The roof was accessible at all times to anyone who can climb a fire escape. Elisa Lam weighed 115 pounds. Most American men are strong enough to carry her up a fire escape if they want to.

    I think that it is possible as well that the alarm was off for the roof. A long term resident could certainly have acquired a master key over time. I was in a museum last year and found a key on the floor. I turned it in to the front counter. They said it was a master key to for the museum and could open every door to the museum. I knew it was a museum key because it was very heavy duty and not like a regular house key.

    Let's put it this way, if Elisa Lam could figure out how to get to the roof and into the tank (which is some people's hypothesis) then another resident or person could easily do the same thing with her dead body.

    6. This ends the things I am sure about so far. In sum, there is no evidence from this video that there is anybody INTERACTING with Elisa Lam or visible to her.

    What I still have questions about are:

    a. Why did she push all of the buttons on that row? It is not fair to her to make assumptions about that. There could be any number of reasons. Maybe she has OCD. Maybe she is stupid (plenty of people are) about practical functioning of technical things like elevators. Maybe she read or heard somewhere that very day you should push a lot of buttons when you are a woman traveling alone so she decided to implement it. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I am not going to conclude any of these is the case without evidence, including the conclusion that she is crazy or high/drunk.

    b. Why did she turn toward the elevator and make the strange hand gestures? I will say on this that when I am alone and something inanimate is not functioning like I would like it to, I often start yelling at it and gesture as well. It is just a way to release tension and frustration. I also open my hands, fingers splayed and move them around while saying things like, "Why won't you work. What the hell is wrong with you?" That doesn't make me crazy. I know the computer, remote control, riding lawn mower, dead car battery, etcetera can't actually hear me. It just makes me feel better to say it. My boyfriend often actually hits items that aren't working and breaks them. He broke his computer because he punched it because it wasn't cooperating with him. I don't hit stuff I am mad at because that just makes the situation worse. But regardless, neither of us would crawl into a 10 foot water tank. I think it is unfair to assume that she is crazy when it is an obvious option that she could have just been blowing off a little steam complaining to the elevator about why it wasn't working for her. This isn't the only option to explain her hand gestures and talking, however, it is the simplest. And she was directly looking at the elevator door or control panel while she did it.

    You've never yelled or even cussed at a bolt that was stuck/fused on your brake pad or something like that? I never dated a guy who didn't cuss and yell at a vehicle at least once while he was working on it. Does that make you a crazy person who would kill yourself in some bizarre manner?

    c. Why was she hiding in the corner of the elevator? I don't know. Maybe she heard something?

    Something I would like to know is if the DOOR HOLD causes the elevator to make a chiming sound. She has her hands up to her head at 1:22 and I can't tell why. Was she covering her ears? Was she holding her head in consternation? Was she admiring herself in the mirror?

    My greatest wish for Elisa Lam is that the police do not conclude that she put herself in the tank. I think somebody else put her there. I do not believe that she was (at least at the time of the video) drunk or high enough to put herself there. I don't think she was likely depressed enough (when she first walks in the elevator, she seems to be in a pretty good mood). And I don't think her history indicate that she is a crazy person.

    It is also not common sense for the average woman to kill herself this way.

    When you find a woman's body dead in a sealed space, the chances are 99.999999% that somebody else put her there to conceal their crime. It would be very unfair to her to assume otherwise out of convenience or ineptitude.

    This leads me to another thing which bothers me, and that is the competence of medical examiners and coroners. Did anybody else watch the Frontline expose about the necessary certifications to be hired to be an m.e. or coroner? Please watch it. It is frightening that a completely incompetent idiot could be the person who has the legal right to make important official pronouncements about a person's death.

    There is this similar report from NPR...

    http://www.npr.org/2011/02/02/133403760/coroners-dont-need-degrees-to-determine-death

    In my opinion, it would be a disgusting insult to every human being who has to rely on the authorities for justice not to investigate her death as a homicide unless somebody comes up with extremely firm evidence that it was a result of her own misadventure or suicide. If it were me, I would hope that if I was found dead in a sealed container, that people wouldn't just blow it off as my own doing.

    We are not permitted to take the law into our own hands. This means that we are required to rely on law enforcement and courts to protect us and administer justice. This system regularly puts convicted criminals back on the streets to prey on all of us again. We are all at the mercy of this system. This girl was staying in a hotel with convicted predators. Released predators walk every street in every city in our country. Given this, the least they can do is give this girl the benefit of the doubt that she didn't crawl into a water tank and close the lid over herself considering the more likely scenario that somebody else put her there. That just adds insult to injury, doesn't it?
     
  5. Norwegian

    Norwegian New Member

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    Hi,

    If I remember the police said there was no known medical/mental issues? So we are basing bipolar and all her medicines on her Tumblr post?

    Getting to know someone's diagnosis can be very dangerous as it alteres the way we see them and we get biased. I think many of us here at WS lean towards suicide because of her diagnosis.

    I don't think she committed suicide, because if she had wanted to do that, she would have chooses a much easier method.

    To be inside of a watertank itself just screams "not to be found". As in covering up a crime.

    I am leaning towards accidental death/homicide.

    I have watched the video from the elevator several times, even before reading discussions about it. I really wish I remember what my first thought was!! Because now I have read so many different opinions and I think my own analysis of it is worth nothing anymore :(
     
  6. samevo8

    samevo8 New Member

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    Around Christmas time 2012, I had assumed that EL was around her home (Vancouver area.) Some reasons being:

    0. Dec 10: "So it’s my final 48 hours in Ontario before returning to home."
    http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/37604546455/the-end-is-near-more-so-its-my-final-48

    She plans on going "home."

    1. Dec 21: "I figured out where I caught the goddamn flu from. THE BLOODY AIRPLANE RIDE HOME. Stuck inside a tiny little room with recycled air means I damn well will pick something up." (bold added by me)
    http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38458710384/insomniasss-more-i-figured-out-where-i

    Thus implying that she had flown home.

    2. Dec 18: She celebrates her grandmother's 87th birthday perhaps at home ("the dinner table")
    "Tonight was my grandma’s 87th birthday and it was nice because I was able to sit down at the dinner table and it was not a big deal for me. Yeah….a family dinner where I willingly sat down, made conversation and it was all very good. This is if anything, a miracle, and an indication I am doing much better. "
    http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38216201949/finally-finished-writing-my-postcards-and-theyll

    This assumes, of course, that grandma and "family" are back around the Vancouver area/home.

    3. Jan 5: "I just found a copy of A Farewell to Arms that my mom probably bought in the 80s for $1 or something."
    http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/...st-found-a-copy-of-a-farewell-to-arms-that-my

    I'm making a guess that just finding a book EL's mom bought means EL was at her parents' place.

    4. Dec 23: This isn't as strong, but on Dec 23 she talks about finishing 9 hours of retail hell (I think she worked in a women's shoe store) http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38603317176/i-just-got-off-a-horrible-9-hour-shift-of-retail

    This job apparently started on Dec 20th (this posting on Dec 19th mentions she's starting work "tomorrow" http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38288453259/of-course-its-not-a-competition-to-see-who-ends)

    She works until at least Dec 28th: She mentions being tired from work on the 28th of December (http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/39049710741/more-im-a-bit-down-these-days-might-just-be).

    5. She goes with some friends (including a very good close friend) to a dance club http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38629989538/a-night-at-da-club-more-the-group-of-people

    This sounds less touristy and more like things one may do (work, hang out with a very close friend) in one's hometown.



    I see the posting about her travel plans that start off in Vancouver:
    http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/40401259146/planning-planning-planning-for-the-west-coast

    http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/39940752951/i-just-got-my-flightbookd-vancouver-jan-18

    Seems to me she was at her parent's home. Perhaps her home and Vancouver aren't that close? If Vancouver is her home, then perhaps some time after Jan 5th, she left the area? Anyway, perhaps if people knew what city her parents lived in, everything would make more sense.


     
  7. seamaster

    seamaster New Member

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    [ame="http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTIwMTcxNjYw.html"]蓝可儿命案·专访洛杉矶警方有关负责人:警方澄清网络传言 透露案件进展[新闻早报]—在线播放—优酷网,视频高清在线观看[/ame]

    Hey guys, just came across the above video published on one of the Chinese website.... forget about the Chinese stuffs. According to the LPAD (Andrew Smith):

    1. The body was pretty much the whole time in the tank (not hidden for two weeks and placed into the tank afterwards)

    2. The lid was closed when the body was found

    3. And he also thinks the body was floating
     
  8. MesaVerde

    MesaVerde New Member

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    Thanks for posting that. I only watched it once but I think what I heard him say was only that, " I'm not sure if her body was on the bottom or on the top but certainly a body on the bottom would be difficult to see." I might be wrong but I don't remember him saying that he thought the body was floating. There is a big difference between saying those two things. The devil is in the details as they say.
     
  9. samevo8

    samevo8 New Member

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    According to the interview, sounds like the officer wasn't sure if the body was at the bottom or the top and that "certainly a body at the bottom would be difficult to see."

    If the lid was closed then I'm thinking EL didn't close it, although I wouldn't rule that out unless I saw how the lid operated. That'd make me think that either:
    1. Someone closed the lid knowing EL was inside.
    2. Someone closed the lid not knowing EL was inside (esp if EL was at the bottom and hard to see), most likely:
    a. a maintenance worker during the time EL was missing, noticing a lid open (I'd assume open lids for water supply should not be open.)
    b. the maintenance worker responding to the low water pressure complaint closes the lid after seeing EL in the cistern.

     
  10. kingsway

    kingsway New Member

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    You've mistaken his conclusion. He said that it's nearly impossible to carry 115lbs on a wall ladder, not the one beside the water tanks. He said the tight space and the pipes actually lends itself better to carry a body up the water tank.

    "Hiding in a water tank from a threat" is idiotic, even if you are psychotic. Has she ever "hidden" in weird places before? Has she had a past history of doing moronic things? Other than the reason, "she's crazy, therefore she'll do stupid things that I wouldn't do", why would you hide in a water tank? Why not hide in your room? Or the lobby? Or scream at the top of your lungs down the hallway? Maybe she was on the roof already and was in danger - so instead of heading for the 3 fire escapes or the rooftop door, she heads for the water tanks knowing there's a ladder for her to climb, knowing the lid is unlocked, and thinking that she'll be able to get out again, or that she wouldn't drown. It puts you at more danger, because you've trapped yourself. I would rank suicide as more likely.

    Getting back to the ladder and the dead weight - what if someone had a backpack that weighed 120lbs? Since the weight is evenly distributed, and you have both hands, wouldn't it be possible to carry someone up a wall ladder?
     
  11. sillybilly

    sillybilly WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    <snip>

    I've been through the lambetes Twitter tweets and have not seen one RIP message there. I have been through numerous of her "followers" tweets and have yet to see any RIP messages there (although I have a few left to check .. just haven't had time to do all 54).

    Please provide a specific date on the lambetes twitter account where you see an RIP and some verifiable information.
     
  12. seamaster

    seamaster New Member

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    Very true, he didn't say that, thats my own interpretation.
     
  13. sillybilly

    sillybilly WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    <snip>

    Her parents' home and business is in Burnaby which is basically part of Vancouver. Whether she lived at home with her parents in Burnaby or lived by herself in either Burnaby or Vancouver, she would have had to have flown into Vancouver International.
     
  14. Conductor71

    Conductor71 New Member

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    Please see the "List Facts Sticky" all pertinent info and the links provided by Bessie.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200698"]Elisa Lam - **LIST FACTS ONLY -- Non Discussion** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
     
  15. bobmeier

    bobmeier New Member

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    I'm sorry, I've just checked all the links posted in that thread and I couldn't find anything about her glasses. I might have missed something though.
     
  16. samevo8

    samevo8 New Member

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    Does anyone know if there's information on how the cistern's top opening cover works? That is, is it on a hinge that one can lift (on a pivot) or is it a cover that one has to lift off?

    On the pics I see with the fireman on the wooden ladder, standing above the opening, I don't see the cover. I was wondering if it was simply removed (whether hinged or lift up and off type) as part of the procedure for removing the body (although ultimately the body was removed from a hole cut out the side.)

    The reason I ask is that if it were hinged, in my mind that would increase the possibility of the opening cover falling to a closed/covered position if EL lifted the cover and slipped into the cistern. Not saying she did, but I would be slower to discount that possibility if indeed the cistern was covered when the police arrived. I still do think that more likely (assuming closed cover), someone else outside the cistern closed the cover, however.
     
  17. Qrious

    Qrious New Member

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    Thanks. I did not put it well. I was referring to his last remark about "leaving no obvious marks on the body." My thinking was that carrying the body up through the tight gap between tanks and placing the body over the pipes on top would likely result in some body marks from abrasions etc. Though I'm not 100% sure here.

    And I wasn't saying she was running or hiding from some threat on the 14th floor or any floors. I'm just thinking she might have been on the roof and then something made her feel threatened. Probably she was near the tanks so that was the first place she hid. And the perceived threat to her got so strong she took the chance of slipping into the tank to hide. It may seem idiotic but we don't really know what a person under a very strong perceived threat in that situation might do.

    It is just a theory given that it is possible. I'm not really comfortable with it myself because I believe it was too dark there to see. Also we do not know whether she was a swimmer or was comfortable with water.

    As for the backpack idea, can't be sure whether it's possible until someone tested it.
     
  18. MesaVerde

    MesaVerde New Member

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    I am Elisa Lam's size almost exactly. Pretty much any guy not elderly, grossly obese, or in a wheel chair can easily carry me around. So obviously her weight would not be an issue. As to carrying her up a ladder, it is nearly impossible for me to conceive that somebody would believe that a human being could not easily think of a solution to carry a weight like that up a ladder.

    I can think of several easy ways just off the top of my head right now and I haven't even spent time thinking about it. Get me in a situation where I really HAVE to get something done and see how ingenious I can be. So here are my NONingenious ideas that I just thought of in two minutes...

    Here is one: Buy plastic sheeting from Home Depot. Wrap duct tape around it. Put a rope around it. Fix it with duct tape. Climb each ladder, afterwards pulling the body up by the rope. Cut the plastic off of her. Drop her in the tank.

    Or:

    Wrap plastic around her. Secure it with duct tape. Create duct tape handles to create two straps. Slip an arm through each strap. Put her on your back. Climb the ladder. Cut the plastic off dump her in the tank.

    Or. Put her in a suitcase. I would easily fit in a regular checked luggage suitcase. So would she. Climb the ladder. Pull the suitcase up by a rope.
     
  19. MesaVerde

    MesaVerde New Member

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    Now that I think of it, I have myself carried weights that are relatively heavy for me up ladders by myself. Notably very large boxes of books. How I have done it is that I carry it up to the ladder, then I place one foot up on the ladder so that leg is bent at 90 degrees at the knee. I place the box of books on that thigh and hold the box with my left arm. I hold onto the ladder with my right arm. Then I scoot up the ladder one step at a time. I scoot the left leg holding the weight of the books up one step, then I move my right leg (which is lower down on the ladder) up one step and then I get my balance by leaning in to the ladder and move my left arm up to a higher hold on the ladder. I do this one step at a time until I get to the top.

    I could easily carry a child up a ladder that way if I had it in a box or if it wasn't squirming or shifting. That is why the body would need to be in a container or wrapped to get it up the ladder. To stop the shifting and concentrate the weight into a smaller area. Elisa Lam's weight to an average man would be the same as a child's weight for me. If a man had her in a suitcase or box, he could easily bring her up a ladder the same way.

    A guy getting her onto the top of the water tank would be even easier than my situation because I have a small hole only the width of the ladder in the ceiling above me so once I get to the top I have to turn precariously and lean back to hold the box under the hole.

    If you told me you would pay me $10,000 to do it, I would fly out to LA tomorrow and carry any 115 pound female up that ladder myself. You should never doubt human ingenuity.
     
  20. catatonia

    catatonia Member

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    To begin with, I was wondering about that, too (somewhere in thread #3, I guess), but the Coroner stated her body had no physical trauma.

    Is it possible to squeeze something, as big as a human body, into a suitcase or plastic bag (secured with duct tape) without leaving any marks?

    The more I think about it, the less likely it becomes, that there was only one killer (if it was homicide), as sillybilly already suggested. Maybe an accomplice worked as a lookout, OR the killer knew when the roof was going to be empty/secure, but again: how could he possibly knew?

    Someone who isn't familiar with the hotel's daily routine had to have tremendous luck not being caught (in flagranti), as previously asserted, the roof seems to be a quite popular place.
     
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