CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

[SarahW]

Dana Dekalb infuriates me, fair or unfair. I can't imagine, as her father couldn't either, not calling about Hannah (which Dana never did, and waited an entire week, with the context of the first incident, to call after another child came begging for food, telling them that Hannah was telling the truth, and that he and the others were being starved to death.
Put that in the context of no normal activity in the interim.

How head in the sand or slow on the uptake does a person have to be to wait so long, and to wonder if the kid is trying to get one over on her instead of deciding to let people with the authority to check, check it out?

I just have not been able to wrap my head around their slowness to respond. Early stories mentioned her father actually argued with them about Hannah but they still didn't call. It makes no sense.

 

[waschbaer]

If the starvation was intensifying, tiny little scapegoat Hannah would have likely felt it the hardest. She had no reserves. One horrific possibility is that she had expired from malnutrition already before they left.

 

[fridaybaker]

I know with my own self when I find out something startling, my mind goes into freak,out and trying to absorb. It is only later that I figure out what I should have done or said.

The neighbors are not used to reporting or seeing abuse so I am sure it is a first time.

I was a mandated reporter and I think of things I saw out in public that I should have reported but it was out of context of work, so I was not thinking the same.

For example, I was in a different state eating at a restaurant and a father was haranguing his two little daughters. I told them that their father should not talk to them like that. I should have called it in because he may have had other reports on him, but I didn’t. It has bothered me forever.

He told me to,**** the eff up and mind my own effing business. But not eff . F

Human, thanks for the response. I realized after I wrote that post that I was pretty critical of the neighbors, and I shouldn't have been. I think when things get reported in the news, they often just lack details.

Also, I agree: I'm always amazed at people who keep their wits about them and seem to know the right thing to do at the moment in any given situation. I've looked back many, many times and said to self: "Self, where was your mind?"

 

[human]

This is an excellent article. It talks about all of the difficulties in trying to get children examined for child abuse.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/hart_family_deaths_show_--_aga.html

Friends say Jennifer and Sarah Hart made sure none of the children had cell phones or a social media presence and kept them from surfing the Internet. Even close friends of the Harts did not visit them at their home, several said in interviews after the deaths. The closest neighbor to the family’s final home, in rural Woodland, Washington, told child protective workers the blinds were kept closed at all times, the children would literally run from the car into the house and one son told them his parents purposefully hid their children. The boy said his and his siblings didn’t speak up about their parents’ abuse because they feared the six of them would be split up, neighbor Dana DeKalb told child welfare workers.

 

[SarahW]

I honestly cannot understand why you think that, so it doesn't make sense to me at all. I fear they are not alive but they certainly deserve to be IMO.

Indeed. Dum spiro, spero. It is much better to have a chance to learn and love and be loved, and be valued for oneself and not as a personal accessory/circus performer. How horrible for Jen to deny them a chance for a better life.

 

[human]

Re the drinking . The Hart friends said that they sid not drink, That they even ordered Pepsi with pizza. It is reported in a news article that was posted on here.

To me , it shows another lie.

Jen posted pics of two boys drinking and had some comments on them being drunk.

So where did the get the alcohol if not at the home?

 

[PearlClutcher]

Indeed. Dum spiro, spero. It is much better to have a chance to learn and love and be loved, and be valued for oneself and not as a personal accessory/circus performer. How horrible for Jen to deny them a chance for a better life.

In her mind, she thought that she was giving them a better life...:moo:

 

[LeighB]

When in doubt, call and ask to speak with a CPS screener anonymously.

I think a word should be said about what that level of doubt is. I personally have many friends who have had CPS called on them for a range of "infractions," and not one of them was a child abuser. I know that because I know how the cases turned out, the evidence CPS submitted, what the judges ruled, etc. And I also know that every one of those children was subjected to many hours of invasive interviews that were inherently invasive, inappropriate, and even abusive in themselves, asking questions like, "Does your Daddy put his penis in your mouth?" EVERY CPS intervention does harm to a child, to parents, and to a family, and in every case the caller must ask, "What are the chances that the harm I'm calling about is more harmful than the likely CPS intervention?"

Keep in mind when deciding whether to call, or to promote a National Child Abuse Registry, that the parents of the accused will have no Constitutional rights preserved. There will usually be no presumption of innocence, no right to a speedy trial by a jury of their peers, no due process, no right to face their accusers, no right to avoid self-incrimination. Even if a judge finds the case should be closed, they will likely have to take parenting classes and will have a "record" with CPS that will be held against them if any other kind person in the future calls "just to be safe," even if no charges are ever brought against them. Keep in mind that unjust taking of children happens *daily* and happens disproportionately to families of color and disadvantaged families. Keep in mind that for these families, being able to escape an unjust CPS worker by going to another county or state can be life-saving.

In the Hart case, there's no question in my mind that the neighbors should have called. Certainly Texas, for as long as it continuing paying the Hart women, should have kept tabs on the medical and legal interactions with the children. But how about these cases, involving people I personally know?

- Young single poor black mother had breastfeeding newborn, 3yo with CP, and several other children removed dramatically & traumatically off the school bus without even a hug good-bye on Halloween after the mother took the 3yo to the ER for feeding problems that her doctors already knew she had. Forced to sign TPR on 3yo to get the other kids back, 3yo adopted out to Russian couple, never saw her 3yo again.

- Kids playing in front yard barefoot in the summer. Yes, CPS was really called over this. Yes, they really came out and did invasive interviews, trying to search the house and look into every nook & cranny of their lives to find some kind of abuse somewhere.

- Child accidentally hurts himself; CPS spends 8 hours interrogating children, trying to convince them to give up some dirt on sexual and physical abuse by their parents.

- Parents leave restaurant in two cars and accidentally leave one child behind. Dad is arrested and kept in jail overnight.

- Poor black child lives in motel with his mother. Drug dealers and prostitutes also live there. Mother keeps child fed, clothed well, in school, doing his homework, and completely away from the criminals at the complex. CPS puts the child in foster care.

Google Justina Pelletier, Sammy Nikolaev, the Stanley family, the Kenny A lawsuit, and the $10M Orange County had to pay out when CPS workers lied under oath about one of their cases.

I have many more I could list. CPS intervention is *not* benign. It always harms children (at a minimum by the invasive interrogation and the undermining of trust in their parents). Sometimes the harm done by CPS is less than the harm they're escaping, and thank God they're around for that. Sometimes it's not. But every time someone calls them for a child playing unsupervised in his own upper class suburban yard, the caller and the workers who bother to respond to such trivial accusations are taking resources away from the very children who so desperately need intervention the most. Calling CPS is serious business. Not calling is serious business. Think, reflect, weigh.

 

[goldluxe]

There's also the possibility that the children my have been so malnourished that a normal grip on their wrist would result in bruising. Does anyone know if that could at all be possible? I do agree she may have taken her frustrations out on those poor children.

 

[Shiressleuth]

FWIW - regarding why the women ran. When I wanted to kill my daughter (earlier comment; she's alive and well and so am I) I didn't know I'd been abused as a child. But I had this overwhelming compulsion to "SAVE" my daughter by killing her. That sounds so crazy, and it is. I didn't know what I needed to save her from, just that death would be a mercy. If these women-- who I won't call mothers or by their names-- felt driven to "save" these children, from their birth families, from their cultures, from school and society, and them from themselves, it would make sense to me. I keep thinking of the movie GET OUT. Imagine a black family adopting a white child. We would think that odd or bizarre. Yet we hand children of color to any white person who'll take them, and that alone is racist and perverse.

It can't be racist and perverse because it wouldn't be permissable would it? But if a black homosexual male couple wanted to adopt 6 white boys and girls, presumably that would be permissible too. Neither scenario (same sex parents or interracial adoptions) makes any common sense IMO. In this particular case, one adoptive parent was also drinking and driving which could even have contributed to the tragedy (she had a crash previously too). She may have mistakenly put the car in drive instead of reverse.

 

[human]

I think a word should be said about what that level of doubt is. I personally have many friends who have had CPS called on them for a range of "infractions," and not one of them was a child abuser. I know that because I know how the cases turned out, the evidence CPS submitted, what the judges ruled, etc. And I also know that every one of those children was subjected to many hours of invasive interviews that were inherently invasive, inappropriate, and even abusive in themselves, asking questions like, "Does your Daddy put his penis in your mouth?" EVERY CPS intervention does harm to a child, to parents, and to a family, and in every case the caller must ask, "What are the chances that the harm I'm calling about is more harmful than the likely CPS intervention?"

Keep in mind when deciding whether to call, or to promote a National Child Abuse Registry, that the parents of the accused will have no Constitutional rights preserved. There will usually be no presumption of innocence, no right to a speedy trial by a jury of their peers, no due process, no right to face their accusers, no right to avoid self-incrimination. Even if a judge finds the case should be closed, they will likely have to take parenting classes and will have a "record" with CPS that will be held against them if any other kind person in the future calls "just to be safe," even if no charges are ever brought against them. Keep in mind that unjust taking of children happens *daily* and happens disproportionately to families of color and disadvantaged families. Keep in mind that for these families, being able to escape an unjust CPS worker by going to another county or state can be life-saving.

In the Hart case, there's no question in my mind that the neighbors should have called. Certainly Texas, for as long as it continuing paying the Hart women, should have kept tabs on the medical and legal interactions with the children. But how about these cases, involving people I personally know?

- Young single poor black mother had breastfeeding newborn, 3yo with CP, and several other children removed dramatically & traumatically off the school bus without even a hug good-bye on Halloween after the mother took the 3yo to the ER for feeding problems that her doctors already knew she had. Forced to sign TPR on 3yo to get the other kids back, 3yo adopted out to Russian couple, never saw her 3yo again.

- Kids playing in front yard barefoot in the summer. Yes, CPS was really called over this. Yes, they really came out and did invasive interviews, trying to search the house and look into every nook & cranny of their lives to find some kind of abuse somewhere.

- Child accidentally hurts himself; CPS spends 8 hours interrogating children, trying to convince them to give up some dirt on sexual and physical abuse by their parents.

- Parents leave restaurant in two cars and accidentally leave one child behind. Dad is arrested and kept in jail overnight.

- Poor black child lives in motel with his mother. Drug dealers and prostitutes also live there. Mother keeps child fed, clothed well, in school, doing his homework, and completely away from the criminals at the complex. CPS puts the child in foster care.

Google Justina Pelletier, Sammy Nikolaev, the Stanley family, the Kenny A lawsuit, and the $10M Orange County had to pay out when CPS workers lied under oath about one of their cases.

I have many more I could list. CPS intervention is *not* benign. It always harms children (at a minimum by the invasive interrogation and the undermining of trust in their parents). Sometimes the harm done by CPS is less than the harm they're escaping, and thank God they're around for that. Sometimes it's not. But every time someone calls them for a child playing unsupervised in his own upper class suburban yard, the caller and the workers who bother to respond to such trivial accusations are taking resources away from the very children who so desperately need intervention the most. Calling CPS is serious business. Not calling is serious business. Think, reflect, weigh.

I have read these kinds of things, but my experience and the experience of teachers I worked with was that trying to get someone to look at a child was nearly impossible unless the child was practically dead.

People say all kinds of things to try to cover . I know there have been abuses reported where parents have been wrongly accused.

This article is one that I feel more accurately reflects the reality of CPS.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/hart_family_deaths_show_--_aga.html

 

[musemoon]

It can't be racist and perverse because it wouldn't be permissable would it? But if a black homosexual male couple wanted to adopt 6 white boys and girls, presumably that would be permissible too. Neither scenario (same sex parents or interracial adoptions) makes any common sense IMO. In this particular case, one adoptive parent was also drinking and driving which could even have contributed to the tragedy (she had a crash previously too). She may have mistakenly put the car in drive instead of reverse.

I don't see how the above mentioned scenario has any baring on good or bad parenting or whether a parent will eventually end up driving off a cliff. I personally know two gay men, one black and one Latino who have three adopted kids: two girls, one black, one white and a biracial boy and they are doing amazingly well with their incredible kids who each play instruments, speak three languages and live in a very diverse environment....so I really don't think that the family race dynamics or sexual orientation or religious/spiritual views predicts murder. This is a case of one family...where all the evidence is not entirely known being used as an example for reasons why diverse families shouldn't exist....especially in adoption, this is what I'm having a hard time swallowing. Abuses in adoption happen, but to truly prove that our families are "racist and perverse" and don't "make common sense" one would have to conduct an extensive study (over years) of our families and the outcomes of our children's lives to make a true, fact based assessment.

 

[disgruntled]

This is what I think happened too. I think they would have tried to con CPS, so I don’t believe they fled to avoid losing the kids. But if anger caused death, nothing could cover that up. I imagine the other children were witnesses and feared for their lives...too much to try to escape. There is probably blood evidence at the house. Hence LE saying a crime was committed (other than driving off the cliff).
JMO

I tend to agree. Something worse than a routine CPS check made them flee like that.

 

[flourish]

I think a word should be said about what that level of doubt is. I personally have many friends who have had CPS called on them for a range of "infractions," and not one of them was a child abuser. I know that because I know how the cases turned out, the evidence CPS submitted, what the judges ruled, etc. And I also know that every one of those children was subjected to many hours of invasive interviews that were inherently invasive, inappropriate, and even abusive in themselves, asking questions like, "Does your Daddy put his penis in your mouth?" EVERY CPS intervention does harm to a child, to parents, and to a family, and in every case the caller must ask, "What are the chances that the harm I'm calling about is more harmful than the likely CPS intervention?"

Keep in mind when deciding whether to call, or to promote a National Child Abuse Registry, that the parents of the accused will have no Constitutional rights preserved. There will usually be no presumption of innocence, no right to a speedy trial by a jury of their peers, no due process, no right to face their accusers, no right to avoid self-incrimination. Even if a judge finds the case should be closed, they will likely have to take parenting classes and will have a "record" with CPS that will be held against them if any other kind person in the future calls "just to be safe," even if no charges are ever brought against them. Keep in mind that unjust taking of children happens *daily* and happens disproportionately to families of color and disadvantaged families. Keep in mind that for these families, being able to escape an unjust CPS worker by going to another county or state can be life-saving.

In the Hart case, there's no question in my mind that the neighbors should have called. Certainly Texas, for as long as it continuing paying the Hart women, should have kept tabs on the medical and legal interactions with the children. But how about these cases, involving people I personally know?

- Young single poor black mother had breastfeeding newborn, 3yo with CP, and several other children removed dramatically & traumatically off the school bus without even a hug good-bye on Halloween after the mother took the 3yo to the ER for feeding problems that her doctors already knew she had. Forced to sign TPR on 3yo to get the other kids back, 3yo adopted out to Russian couple, never saw her 3yo again.

- Kids playing in front yard barefoot in the summer. Yes, CPS was really called over this. Yes, they really came out and did invasive interviews, trying to search the house and look into every nook & cranny of their lives to find some kind of abuse somewhere.

- Child accidentally hurts himself; CPS spends 8 hours interrogating children, trying to convince them to give up some dirt on sexual and physical abuse by their parents.

- Parents leave restaurant in two cars and accidentally leave one child behind. Dad is arrested and kept in jail overnight.

- Poor black child lives in motel with his mother. Drug dealers and prostitutes also live there. Mother keeps child fed, clothed well, in school, doing his homework, and completely away from the criminals at the complex. CPS puts the child in foster care.

Google Justina Pelletier, Sammy Nikolaev, the Stanley family, the Kenny A lawsuit, and the $10M Orange County had to pay out when CPS workers lied under oath about one of their cases.

I have many more I could list. CPS intervention is *not* benign. It always harms children (at a minimum by the invasive interrogation and the undermining of trust in their parents). Sometimes the harm done by CPS is less than the harm they're escaping, and thank God they're around for that. Sometimes it's not. But every time someone calls them for a child playing unsupervised in his own upper class suburban yard, the caller and the workers who bother to respond to such trivial accusations are taking resources away from the very children who so desperately need intervention the most. Calling CPS is serious business. Not calling is serious business. Think, reflect, weigh.

I'm well too aware of how awful CPS can be, from my own personal experience (hell). So I'm very careful, but thank you for pointing that out. Of course reports should only be in good faith.

As a teacher, I once had CPS reach out to me because there was a gaggle of moms at one of the apartment complexes that fed into my school who were making spiteful and untrue allegations about one another and they wanted my take on the child and family who was being reported that week.

In any case, it's not the fault of the good faith reporter if CPS doesn't handle a situation appropriately.

 

[bears10]

It can't be racist and perverse because it wouldn't be permissable would it? But if a black homosexual male couple wanted to adopt 6 white boys and girls, presumably that would be permissible too. Neither scenario (same sex parents or interracial adoptions) makes any common sense IMO. In this particular case, one adoptive parent was also drinking and driving which could even have contributed to the tragedy (she had a crash previously too). She may have mistakenly put the car in drive instead of reverse.

Regarding her perhaps putting the car into drive by accident. Idk, it seems unlikely to me considering the distance from where the car was to the edge of the cliff, and the speed at which the car was apparently moving. Even if she was drunk (and imo he BAC wasn’t off the charts despite it being over the legal limit), I feel like she would notice the instant she put her foot on the gas “holy $!&*^, here is a cliff, I need to slam on the brakes!” She was driving a big SUV, not a sports car, so it would take longer to accelerate, therefore likely giving her more time to slam on the brakes. Due to the lack of tire marks, I think the chances of this being an accident are slim.

 

[flourish]

It can't be racist and perverse because it wouldn't be permissable would it? But if a black homosexual male couple wanted to adopt 6 white boys and girls, presumably that would be permissible too. Neither scenario (same sex parents or interracial adoptions) makes any common sense IMO. In this particular case, one adoptive parent was also drinking and driving which could even have contributed to the tragedy (she had a crash previously too). She may have mistakenly put the car in drive instead of reverse.

I must have misunderstood, so can you clarify regarding same-sex couples adopting? Certainly I'm misunderstanding.
ETA the "common sense" comment.... Can you please clarify?

 

[Shiressleuth]

I don't see how the above mentioned scenario has any baring on good or bad parenting or whether a parent will eventually end up driving off a cliff. I personally know two gay men, one black and one Latino who have three adopted kids two girls one black, one white and a biracial boy and they are doing amazingly well with their incredible kids who each play instruments, speak three languages and live in a very diverse environment....so I really don't think that the family race dynamics or sexual orientation or religious/spiritual views predicts murder. This is a case of one family...where all the evidence is not entirely known being used as an example for reasons why diverse families shouldn't exist....especially in adoption, this is what I'm having a hard time swallowing. Abuses in adoption happen, but to truly prove that our families are "racist and perverse" and don't "make common sense" one would have to conduct an extensive study (over years) of our families and the outcomes of our children's lives to make a true, fact based assessment.

I said it wasn't racist or perverse or it wouldn't be permissable. I believe children should ideally be placed with parents most like their own race, religion or biological parents. I don't need a study to have that belief or opinion.

@ flourish - hope this explains what I meant.

 

[Snflowertown]

I've been quiet but reading everyone's comments closely!

I just wanted to comment on the Benadryl situation...Police said "large amounts" were present--imo, that does imply more than necessary for any given condition. It implies "unusual," to me. (Large > standard)

But even more generally, the widespread ingestion of Benadyl--it looks nefarious, logically. Everyone in the family (except the driver of the car) has allergies &/or sleeping problems etc, concurrently???

I feel that if you intend to drive 6-7 other non-consenting people off a cliff, & they're not seat-belted in, drugging them seems necessary. Otherwise there'd be screaming, jumping out of the car & so on. It also explains them NOT having been seat belted--if they were marched &/or loaded in, drugged, then Jen Hart knew seat belts weren't necessary either for safety or to ensure the act would be completed.

These poor, pure children. I am so heartbroken for their suffering.

It has crossed my mind that she sedated them, gave them too much intentionally/unintentionally and killed them that night. Then she got their bodies in the car and drove around until she could not anymore. I think the text on the phone was a cover and the purchase of food was a cover. Maybe the police knew it was a crime because the bodies were in rigor. They were probably dead before they hit the rocks. Sorry to be so macabre.

 

[LeighB]

In any case, it's not the fault of the good faith reporter if CPS doesn't handle a situation appropriately.

Absolutely no disagreement with anything you said in this post, this included.

I have read these kinds of things, but my experience and the experience of teachers I worked with was that trying to get someone to look at a child was nearly impossible unless the child was practically dead.

People say all kinds of things to try to cover . I know there have been abuses reported where parents have been wrongly accused.

This article is one that I feel more accurately reflects the reality of CPS.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/hart_family_deaths_show_--_aga.html

After speaking with several caseworkers, I think the reality is this: Because of human nature, it's easier to go through all the follow-through on a case you think is going to be easier (not risking your life or sanity) than one you think may involve dangerous places, dangerous people, etc. There are also areas where caseworkers don't have many real cases of abuse or neglect and are just waiting for something to dive into.

They rarely think of the inherent harm in their interventions, mostly focusing on "saving the children." They are focused on reunification sometimes, but not enough (hence the Kenny A lawsuit which class, ironically, my dear friend whose CP child was stolen from her, was part of as a former foster child in that system/time, but was never informed of). Massive government incentives are paid out when adopting kids out of foster care, but not when reunifications happen. The reunification meetings I've attended were an absolute joke. One guy was an absolute gem, but absolutely nothing he insisted in the meetings ever happened in reality. One judge was a gem who really focused on the true best interest of the child (not just childless social workers' misconceptions of what that entailed) , but he died mysteriously a few weeks later.

The ones who do a glorious job are overwhelmed with a huge workload made worse by trivial and false reports, so the children who really need help rarely get it.

 

[Gardenista]

This is an excellent article. It talks about all of the difficulties in trying to get children examined for child abuse.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/hart_family_deaths_show_--_aga.html

Friends say Jennifer and Sarah Hart made sure none of the children had cell phones or a social media presence and kept them from surfing the Internet. Even close friends of the Harts did not visit them at their home, several said in interviews after the deaths. The closest neighbor to the family’s final home, in rural Woodland, Washington, told child protective workers the blinds were kept closed at all times, the children would literally run from the car into the house and one son told them his parents purposefully hid their children. The boy said his and his siblings didn’t speak up about their parents’ abuse because they feared the six of them would be split up, neighbor Dana DeKalb told child welfare workers.

Didn't the Turpin kids do this too?