CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

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debbiegarcia36

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'We're going stop here for a few minutes and enjoy the view. Everyone take off your seat belts and relax.' - It is my feeling that this is why the stop. I'm sure many would want to get out of the car to relieve themselves, if nothing else, but then again, if the engine was still on, the doors would have been locked and no one could get out.

I think Jen is the only one who knew what was coming - and it was planned from the get-go; hence why everyone was drugged with Benadryl - most likely unknowingly - deliberately put in everyone's water bottles - or a shared water jug.

I also think this could have long been the 'ultimate escape plan' for Jen in her mind as their lives and their minds became unraveled. There are too many excuses made along her social posts of why the children could never live normal lives, or get jobs, etc. And, there would be no income for them after they reached 18. Perhaps Benadryl was being used inside that house for a long time to sedate the family. I think Jen decided a while ago that she'd run as long as should could, until she couldn't.

I would think there was serious mental illness, personality disorders both women had - and were co-dependent. If they weren't getting medical treatment - then the symptoms and behaviors weren't managed. And personality disorders can't always be helped with medication anyhow.

In the end, it was mass murder and suicide. I don't have a theory on the missing two. However, I do believe that some may have been dead/killed/deceased before the plunge, including Sarah. Whatever those last moments were, they were filled with terror, sedated or not.
Ive thought mental illness or some type of disorder all along.

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Snflowertown

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That article on Jen is interesting. The pics are really sweet of the children.
Whatever Jen was or how she treated those kids is because she might have experienced this same kind of punishment in the house while growing up. Maybe that is why the parents are so quiet. I bet Sarah's childhood had some abuse b/c how could she stand by and see it.
Could it be possible that Jen had some type of schizophrenia since she stole from that store?
I think she intentionally was trying to stunt their growth. Keep them children. Asexual.

If the kids would never be able to be independent or work etc then why were a couple of them able to mow a lawn on a riding mower and lay wood floors? In that pic of the 2 boys playing cards there is a sander at their feet and a can of deck varnish next to them. I would think they would keep tools and toxic chemicals away from the kids. Who prescribed all of them glasses?

It's weird how she got away from her home life as a teen by moving in with her father but somehow she tried to stop her own adopted kids from getting away from her.
 

Breamworthy

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I never saw Sarah's salary before; thanks! That's quite a bit higher than I was guessing.

I believe this was just an estimate from glassdoor or similar, for a department store assistant manager's salary.
 

Mira_Eg

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Interesting thing: A child in the report stated that "all children got disciplined on Sunday." What are the chances that all children were bad? Or was that just the day they normally would be disciplined or the meaner mom was home?
Mass or collective punishment : Imo: Harsh methods of discipline were used frequently and introduced to be the norm once the adoption was finalized. It is like in some totalitarian regimes when political dissidents met by a 'torture party' upon arrival to detention centres or jails where they are completely isolated. Terrorizing them intensively at the beginning then use other methods. Same logic but different techniques. Other forms of abuse like isolation and deprivation could have been used over the next years. It is sad that both parents studied pedagogy and education. :(
 

LeighB

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After reading this new article and another FB post of Jen's where she wrote about being able to travel so far and wide for longish periods of time with just the kids, something tells me that packing these kids into the car at 3 am that fatal weekend may not have been unusual for them.

I get the sense that there was little structure, routines or schedules for these kids. Which would make it hard on both the kids and the parents. Especially if these kids had any kind of disability or special needs,which I now seriously doubt. Developmental delays, perhaps, which would have been exacerbated by the parenting of the adoptive family.

After reading this article, I can't help but think how externally similar I am to Jen. My Lord. 6 children, trumpet player, love to travel the country with the kids seeing national parks and historic sites, love music, love taking beautiful photographs of the children, hippie type, homeschooling... wow.

We really do take 3 weeks at a time every couple of years and drive cross-country with our whole bunch, camping and hiking and educating all the while (and no, it's not expensive). Again, it's important to point out that unconventional lifestyles aren't necessarily harmful to children. There's actually fairly little structure, routines, or schedules for my kids. It *is* hard on us all, but order isn't my strength. However, they're extremely well educated (oldest is currently on full tuition scholarship in a top national university), not even remotely delayed, completely prepared (on purpose, over many years) to live life independently in the "real world" once they leave home, skilled in many things, very sociable, etc.

IDK, the biggest thing I took away from the article is confirmation of my feeling that Jen was a narcissist with some other mental illness on top of it, and Sarah was a codependent enabler. And given Jen's apparent descent into paranoia and persecution complex, I think schizophrenia is a real possibility. I'd love to hear the opinion of a mental health expert.
 

LeighB

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That really was an outstandingly well-written and informative article.

Th[FONT=&quot]e family has agreed not to speak publicly until officials find the two children, including Devonte, who are still missing.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Now is not the time.”
[/FONT]

What do you make of this? My thoughts range from "I really, really have no idea" to "the kids really had serious problems that no one knew about and we don't want to say it if they're still alive."

I was glad the article explained the NZ story. It came out in 2014 and Jen was apparently the sole source, so I'm less inclined to take the "shot at before he was 4" info at face value now.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Love and light seem to be the only things in the tool box. That’s not being an ally for black lives.”[/FONT]

Wow, that's painful. Driving them off a cliff is not a great way to protect black lives. :( :(

I wonder which male child was never spanked, reported no one else was ever spanked and food was not withheld?

Huh, I read the whole article and didn't see that. Need to go back and check.
 

mtnlites

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Report was made months later.

From “fake news” on the interent, people think CPS has all kinds of big power. That is rarely true, There has to be a lot of info before they will act.

Just cuz someone calls up and says something does not mean it qualifies for investigation, A report months later is pretty much a loser.

Where I live, it does. We had to investigate every report and claim. That was another reason why we tend to burn out fast and early. I live in a sparsely populated area and I still did early investigations at least 4 times a week. At any given time I might have 25 cases or more, and those were the intensive ones. We could have just as many less intensive cases. Now, whether we proceeded to issue an intake, get LE involved, or issue ongoing caseworker and continue the investigation was not a given. But every report had to have an initial investigation. We did not get to decide that a case wouldn't be taken until we actually met and did a preliminary interview to assess whether the charges might have merit.
 

mtnlites

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One of my friends was in regular contact with Jen and they'd formed a friendship. She said that she'd even spoken to her about co-authoring a book together. (I'm not sure what it was about, but my friend writes nonfiction.) I have invited my friend to join WS and get verified because, I gotta be honest, I am dying to know more about this and I want to know what her feelings are now. It would be good to get one of their friends on here so that we could get a better feel for what they thought at the time, and what they feel now.
 

gcharlie

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IDK, the biggest thing I took away from the article is confirmation of my feeling that Jen was a narcissist with some other mental illness on top of it, and Sarah was a codependent enabler. And given Jen's apparent descent into paranoia and persecution complex, I think schizophrenia is a real possibility. I'd love to hear the opinion of a mental health expert.

My nephew is diagnosed with schizophrenia.

With what little information that has come to light, there is no way that I could or would say Jen had schizophrenia. It is a very complex set of symptoms and behaviors.

Outside of psychosis, most people diagnosed with schizophrenia tend to be very gentle and non-violent. Likewise, many of their delusions center on their symptoms or disease being a gift of or from god or higher powers.
 

human

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Well exactly. They had to work hard to catch a tiny peek, peering through a cedar hedge, and that justifies a visit from CPS.

Edit: the full story is actually far more bizarre. Her kids (both toddlers) got out of the kiddie pool. She stepped up onto the porch to get a towel, and when she turned back to come down the steps, there was a strange lady in her yard saying "I noticed your kids were unattended [which they weren't] so I came in". She then proceeded to interrogate my friend about why her kids were naked, and later that day CPS showed up. In my opinion, they would have been better off investigating the lady who happened to walk into a screened backyard with little kids in the 20 seconds their mom's back was turned.

Kids can drown in a matter of seconds. Maybe that was the impetus and your friend did not want to say that. My friend’s sister’s sister drowned in a mud puddle in the yard years ago
 

mtnlites

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I understand everyone’s hopes and positive scenarios of where Devonte and Hannah may be located, alive. Unfortunately, I am not as optimistic. It’s been what, almost a month? Unless these kids are living off the grid with friends of JH and SH (which my gut tells me is doubtful), I don’t see how they could be surviving in the woods on their own for this long. I’m sorry if my comment upsets or offends anyone, that’s certainly not my intentions. I of course would be thrilled to hear these two precious kids are alive and well, but my gut tells me they are in the ocean ☹️

I'm not optimistic about the idea, either. Frankly, I think it's pretty far-fetched. I think they're most likely in the water and, sadly, haven't washed up yet. With that being said, I've spent the past couple of weeks imagining 6 kids crashing to their death in fear. Now, at least for a little while, I am going replace that image with one of 2 children living with some nice couple and that, right now, they're outside their little container home, hanging clothes on the line and planting flowers. Sometimes false hope is just good for the soul, as illogical as that hope may be.
 

bluesneakers

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After reading this article, I can't help but think how externally similar I am to Jen. My Lord. 6 children, trumpet player, love to travel the country with the kids seeing national parks and historic sites, love music, love taking beautiful photographs of the children, hippie type, homeschooling... wow.

We really do take 3 weeks at a time every couple of years and drive cross-country with our whole bunch, camping and hiking and educating all the while (and no, it's not expensive). Again, it's important to point out that unconventional lifestyles aren't necessarily harmful to children. There's actually fairly little structure, routines, or schedules for my kids. It *is* hard on us all, but order isn't my strength. However, they're extremely well educated (oldest is currently on full tuition scholarship in a top national university), not even remotely delayed, completely prepared (on purpose, over many years) to live life independently in the "real world" once they leave home, skilled in many things, very sociable, etc.

IDK, the biggest thing I took away from the article is confirmation of my feeling that Jen was a narcissist with some other mental illness on top of it, and Sarah was a codependent enabler. And given Jen's apparent descent into paranoia and persecution complex, I think schizophrenia is a real possibility. I'd love to hear the opinion of a mental health expert.

Jen seems driven, goal-oriented, motivated, organized, able to express herself, and always appeared neat and appropriately dressed. Untreated schizophrenia at her age, and while caring for six children - she would have been a mess, and likely have an arrest record* and some hospitalizations.

I'm not a professional but I have experience in the mental health field. So far nothing about her suggests she had schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. But depression and anxiety would be possible, IMO.

*eta: Not an arrest record for violent crimes, but for things like trespassing or other minor offenses.
 

human

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Where I live, it does. We had to investigate every report and claim. That was another reason why we tend to burn out fast and early. I live in a sparsely populated area and I still did early investigations at least 4 times a week. At any given time I might have 25 cases or more, and those were the intensive ones. We could have just as many less intensive cases. Now, whether we proceeded to issue an intake, get LE involved, or issue ongoing caseworker and continue the investigation was not a given. But every report had to have an initial investigation. We did not get to decide that a case wouldn't be taken until we actually met and did a preliminary interview to assess whether the charges might have merit.

Exactly. Things are discussed and determined. Not every report gets a visit. Where I lived in MN, the average stay in CPS was two years.
 

mtnlites

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My nephew is diagnosed with schizophrenia.

With what little information that has come to light, there is no way that I could or would say Jen had schizophrenia. It is a very complex set of symptoms and behaviors.

Outside of psychosis, most people diagnosed with schizophrenia tend to be very gentle and non-violent. Likewise, many of their delusions center on their symptoms or disease being a gift of or from god or higher powers.

I had a really good friend in high school with schizophrenia. I had grown up with the stereotype that schizophrenics were scary, dangerous people. That's one of the stigmas of the illness. I tried to learn as much about it as possible, though, when he was diagnosed and sent to live in a group home for a while. We had group therapy sessions that he invited me to and the doctors always told us that schizophrenics tend to be more dangerous to themselves than to others.

I have no doubt that Jen (and probably Sarah but I know less about her) had some kind of mental illness or personality disorder. With the history of anger, stealing, outbursts, etc. I would not immediately think of schizophrenia, not from what I've learned about it. (Borderline personality disorder, bi-polar disorder, narcissistic personality disorder are a few that would come to mind. However, I cringe at the idea of internet diagnosing someone. Mental illness is complex; you need more than just a few newspaper articles about the person.)
 

bluesneakers

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I had a really good friend in high school with schizophrenia. I had grown up with the stereotype that schizophrenics were scary, dangerous people. That's one of the stigmas of the illness. I tried to learn as much about it as possible, though, when he was diagnosed and sent to live in a group home for a while. We had group therapy sessions that he invited me to and the doctors always told us that schizophrenics tend to be more dangerous to themselves than to others.

I have no doubt that Jen (and probably Sarah but I know less about her) had some kind of mental illness or personality disorder. With the history of anger, stealing, outbursts, etc. I would not immediately think of schizophrenia, not from what I've learned about it. (Borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, narcissistic personality disorder are a few that would come to mind. However, I cringe at the idea of internet diagnosing someone. Mental illness is complex; you need more than just a few newspaper articles about the person.)

I agree. Those are all difficult to diagnose even when the person is in treatment, we have no idea what her history is, what her family history is, if she was ever diagnosed with a mental illness or sought treatment for one, etc.

We could just as easily speculate she had a traumatic brain injury or frontal lobe damage, or was addicted to meth, or had mad cow disease.
 

fridaybaker

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The things she stole back in her 20s were not things she probably wanted for herself, but the kind of thing professional thieves like to fence for quick cash. I would not be surprised if she was running various cons to finance their lifestyle all along.

Excellent point.
 

mtnlites

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I agree. Those are all difficult to diagnose even when the person is in treatment, we have no idea what her history is, what her family history is, if she was ever diagnosed with a mental illness or sought treatment for one, etc.

We could just as easily speculate she had a traumatic brain injury or frontal lobe damage, or was addicted to meth, or had mad cow disease.

Well, now see, you've gone and given us all ideas! Off to search the pictures for signs of mad cow disease! ;-)

Yeah, we couldn't do any more than guess at any of that kind of stuff. I'm just kind of leaving it at the fact that something was probably not quite working the way it should in there. Unless someone from her past confirms a diagnosis, or a profiler makes a post-mortem speculative diagnosis, that's not something we'll probably ever know.
 

waschbaer

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Jen's history of shoplifting might point to an overall pattern of impulsive and reckless behavior. Might. Just a thought that crossed my mind.
 

fridaybaker

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Earlier I posted the structure of dysfuctional families. I think Hannah was the child who was the source of all problems. If it was not for Hannah, their family would be perfect.

Why she would get that role, who knows. But I believe she did.

Remember, she had the major crime of having a penny in her pocket.

Maybe Jen thought that Hannah was a liar and thief like Jen. Projection, Beat it out of her

Human, lot's of funny/interesting posts from you!
 
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