CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #1

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ShayHay!

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More about the child abuse/ domestic assault sitution in MN:



http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/03/devonte_harts_little_sister_to.html

BBM. What?? Now which mother did the abuse? Did Sarah take the blame for abuse by Jen??

This story is getting more convoluted by the minute.

There was a LOT of stress inside that home, IMO.
When I first read about the abuse, I just had a feeling that Jen was the perpetrator and Sarah took the blame for it. Frankly Sarah looks like she's a little cowed and more apt to obey orders than administer punishment.
 

K_Z

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I think any system where people are inflexible and adhere to rigid beliefs can attract people who may have "issues". However, studies have definitively shown that child abuse, sexual assault and domestic violence are high in strict religious patriarchies when compared to any other types of cultural groups. Religious or secular.

BBM. I completely agree with this. Especially the first sentence, and as my long post rambles about, I think that inflexible and rigid belief systems are not limited only to fundamentalist/ extremist religious people, or religious patriarchies.

I think these women had inflexible and rigid belief systems that were not based on religion, but on social activism and political beliefs. That doesn't make them "bad" parents in and of itself--but it is how much those beliefs influence parenting and lifestyle decisions that make the beliefs worrisome. IMO, they believed that their kids came first, but their actions belie that, and demonstrate that the women's need to express and indoctrinate the kids with their socio/ political ideology came before the needs of each individual child's emotional and social growth and development.

This family is no different, IMO, than any of the religious child abuse cases we read about. Their socio/ political ideology was their equivalent of extremist or fundamentalist religion, IMO.
 

ShayHay!

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[video=youtube;DbDF5zkjKVI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=107&v=DbDF5zkjKVI[/video]

The DeKalb neighbors. The wife is really broken up. I think they really tried their best to help and encourage the kids, and liked the kids a lot, and the family, but were confused about what was going on next door. This was not a "knee jerk" reaction to call CPS, IMO.

Really heartbreaking to see them talk abut the kids..

I so feel for these folks. They did the right thing, and a terrible thing happened.

Lest anyone see this and think, "Well I'm not going to call on anyone because something really bad might happen to the kid(s)": As a mandated reporter (twice over), I can assure everyone that this situation is quite the exception, not the rule. Many many children (and the elderly and adults with disabilities) continue to be abused or wind up dead because folks are afraid to get involved.

If you see something, say something. If there's smoke but no fire, then the parents and guardians have nothing to fear. If there's smoke AND fire...your call may save a life!
 

KaaBoom

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As far as "making" the kids dress alike-- I cut the Hart women a serious amount of slack on this, and don't feel we have enough information to make that a valid criticism, or imply it's part of a coercive lifestyle.

All the family photos released to the news are posed, from one of their trips to rallies, etc. Many families who never dress alike, will wear matching t-shirts to a family reunion, or a theme park, a festival, a cause like a breast cancer support marathon, etc. It's both a way to announce your "cause", and a way to quickly identify your group members. It's also a camaraderie thing.

These women have a lot to criticize about their parenting and behavior, IMO-- but matching t-shirts isn't something I can condemn.

The only other case I can think of, where an entire large family all wore the exact same shirts was the Turpin family, and we know how that went. Normally in a family that large you would expect at least one family member to go against the tide, and refuse to wear the same shirt, unless they didn't have a choice. Large families who all dress in the same clothes I would expect is either for religion or other ideology reasons. But it not just coincidence.
 

BIC

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I’m thinking, maybe they went into the woods somewhere, and left the 3 Kids and the dogs there. It’s too much of a coincidence to me, who was found at the crash site, and who wasn’t. I’m still holding out hope that they are lost, and will be found alive. IMO
 

katydid23

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The only other case I can think of, where an entire large family all wore the exact same shirts was the Turpin family, and we know how that went. Normally in a family that large you would expect at least one family member to go against the tide, and refuse to wear the same shirt, unless they didn't have a choice. Large families who all dress in the same clothes I would expect is either for religion or other ideology reasons. But it not just coincidence.

I have seen many families that dress their kids in the exact same shirts, but only when going to a large, crowded venue.

How can 2 adults keep track of 7, or more kids, if all of them are wearing totally different colors? They'd get lost in the huge crowd very quickly.

But put all of them in bright red t-shirts with yellow stripes----BINGO. You can scan the crowd head and pick out the missing kids instantly.
 

SouthernCutie

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I so feel for these folks. They did the right thing, and a terrible thing happened.

Lest anyone see this and think, "Well I'm not going to call on anyone because something really bad might happen to the kid(s)": As a mandated reporter (twice over), I can assure everyone that this situation is quite the exception, not the rule. Many many children (and the elderly and adults with disabilities) continue to be abused or wind up dead because folks are afraid to get involved.

If you see something, say something. If there's smoke but no fire, then the parents and guardians have nothing to fear. If there's smoke AND fire...your call may save a life!
I second this. DCS or CPS try to do what they can within the law. My BFF had 2 calls made on her in retaliation to things going on within her family over 10 yrs ago. They investigated and closed the case when it was proven unfounded her kids are now grown and 1 is in the service. CPS worked and investigated. She had a case around 6 months IIRC and I'm sure if they'd received additional calls they'd investigate fully. It's a very rare situation IMO that people have multiple calls to CPS and there isn't truly something going on behind closed doors. It happens I'm sure but in most cases multiple calls for no apparent reason is not true
In this case it wasn't just one child it was multiple and can you imagine what happened after she was caught abusing the one child. How terrifying to realize you told and still have to go home with them. They reached out and had to go right back in there. I know it's the law but something has to change IMO we have mandatory DV cooling off periods. Founded or proven abuse/ neglect needs something MOO

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debbiegarcia36

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As far as "making" the kids dress alike-- I cut the Hart women a serious amount of slack on this, and don't feel we have enough information to make that a valid criticism, or imply it's part of a coercive lifestyle.

All the family photos released to the news are posed, from one of their trips to rallies, etc. Many families who never dress alike, will wear matching t-shirts to a family reunion, or a theme park, a festival, a cause like a breast cancer support marathon, etc. It's both a way to announce your "cause", and a way to quickly identify your group members. It's also a camaraderie thing.

These women have a lot to criticize about their parenting and behavior, IMO-- but matching t-shirts isn't something I can condemn.
Exactly!

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msphilosopher

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You would think that if the dogs were in the car and drowned that they would have been washed up on the rocks by now?

I’m really holding out hope the others are alive. And they’re with the dogs, that’s why the dogs haven’t been found.

I have no sympathy for child abusers, however I’m not convinced this was murder/ suicide yet. Although suspicious.

The only explanation for an accident that I can come up with is if she fell asleep at the wheel. Which does happen more often than people think.


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KaaBoom

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You would think that if the dogs were in the car and drowned that they would have been washed up on the rocks by now?

I&#8217;m really holding out hope the others are alive. And they&#8217;re with the dogs, that&#8217;s why the dogs haven&#8217;t been found.

I have no sympathy for child abusers, however I&#8217;m not convinced this was murder/ suicide yet. Although suspicious.

The only explanation for an accident that I can come up with is if she fell asleep at the wheel. Which does happen more often than people think.

Do you have sympathy for these two women? Because if you do, you are sympathising with a convicted child abuser. If you do there is nothing wrong with that, but it contradicts your statement.
 

msphilosopher

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Do you have sympathy for these two women? Because if you do, you are sympathising with a convicted child abuser. If you do there is nothing wrong with that, but it contradicts your statement.

How does it contradict my statement?

I have NO sympathy for child abusers.

Saying that it COULD be an accident, doesn’t mean I have sympathy for them.

I’m following the facts, is there not a possibility she fell asleep at the wheel due to lack of sleep from potentially being on the run from CPS?

The crash is suspicious and could be murder / suicide. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case. Just saying I’m not jumping to that conclusion just because they were child abusers.

I know two different people who fell asleep at the wheel. One died along with the passenger. The other one lived but everyone else in the car died.




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SouthernCutie

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I haven't used FB in months but I just quickly peeked and saw only 1 of I'm sure tons of posts about the Hart family on a news page and it saddens me that "friends " of the couple are basically calling the kids and neighbors liars in order to defend the women. No doubt at one time they may have been as loving as people suggest. I'd like to think so or they wouldn't have adopted to begin with. But something happened or overwhelmed them along the way and instead of asking for help they abused those children and if it indeed turns out this was deliberate then she murdered them and possibly her wife as well.
Times like this I wish my parents had not already passed away I'm not sure if I ever adequately thanked them for adopting me and loving and protecting me the way they did. Seems like I've read far too many horrific accounts of abuse lately

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everybodhi

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They are still searching for the three missing children today, on the rocks and in the ocean around the area, as investigators must have some evidence they were in the car at the time .
Search team, cadaver dog comb through area where family's SUV plunged off cliff
the search continued Friday for three more children believed to have been in the vehicle when it went over the edge and landed on the rocks below the Pacific Coast Highway.

LE has stated they don&#8217;t think it is a murder/suicide, for some reason. They have more information than we do, we should listen when they tell us something. Why would they lie?
Why don&#8217;t we wait for more information before we string these ladies up in the court of WS public opinion?
The investigation is ongoing.
That model of Yukon was presumably equipped with a black box recorder that would show its speed and use of the brakes, said Marcus Mazza, an engineer and accident-reconstruction expert with Lancaster, Pennsylvania-based Robson Forensic.

I live nearby and drive this coast frequently.
It would be easy enough for someone to get confused in the dark and fog on one of those cliffs and back or pull too close to the edge, while pulling out to leave.
 

Breezie

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How does it contradict my statement?

I have NO sympathy for child abusers.

Saying that it COULD be an accident, doesn&#8217;t mean I have sympathy for them.

I&#8217;m following the facts, is there not a possibility she fell asleep at the wheel due to lack of sleep from potentially being on the run from CPS?

The crash is suspicious and could be murder / suicide. I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if that was the case. Just saying I&#8217;m not jumping to that conclusion just because they were child abusers.

I know two different people who fell asleep at the wheel. One died along with the passenger. The other one lived but everyone else in the car died.




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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lesbian-couples-SUV-determine-fast-going.html

It should be possible to determine if this was an accident or not because the SUV has the equivalent of a black box.

I also wondered if she could have fallen asleep at the wheel due to fatigue and stress.
 

KaaBoom

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How does it contradict my statement?

I have NO sympathy for child abusers.

Saying that it COULD be an accident, doesn&#8217;t mean I have sympathy for them.

I&#8217;m following the facts, is there not a possibility she fell asleep at the wheel due to lack of sleep from potentially being on the run from CPS?

The crash is suspicious and could be murder / suicide. I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if that was the case. Just saying I&#8217;m not jumping to that conclusion just because they were child abusers.

I know two different people who fell asleep at the wheel. One died along with the passenger. The other one lived but everyone else in the car died.

You kind of just avoided answering my question.
 

msphilosopher

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The question was, do you have sympathy for these two women? If you don't want to answer it that is fine.

No sympathy for these woman. These woman are child abusers.

I already stated, I have no sympathy for child abusers. I am referring to these woman as child abusers.

I’m not sure how I can make that any more clear. :)


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JanetElaine

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The images that have been posted show the car was in the ocean, not in the creek. That would mean that the car went over the edge of the cliff, not off the bridge. The only way I could see this being an accident would be if the driver mistook the gas for the brake. That type of thing usually only happens to senior drivers, not to someone this age.

I wasn't saying they drove off the bridge. The road curves after the bridge, and the straight line goes to the end of the first turnout where they went off. So if thy kept going in a straight line after passing over the bridge, they'd go exactly to where they went off. Hope that helps.

(Not that I think they went off in that manner by accident. I was just pointing out the curvature of the road in relation to the point they went off at the end of the turnout in response to another poster).
 
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