katydid23
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I have a hard time believing much of what mike m says. I think he talks to hear himself talk sometimes.
CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #13
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My thoughts on Provecho.
1. The ins and outs of the Provecho dispute as between Joey and Laurel is irrelevant to the murder case.
2. The importance of Provecho is that Chase has admitted 2x that he got the 19K but then Maline attempted to mislead the Court about it. This proves the defence is lying. This is very critical. Maline is not just trying to elicit and alternative view from a witness. He is using a witness to construct false testimony. This is what Chase was organising in the jail house tape and what he means when he says Maline will "lead". This is a breach of attorney ethics and duties to the court
3. Receiving an email from a missing/dead man is obviously freaking key. If Chase didn't send it, of course he should have reported it! If Mikey sent it and told Chase - the defence need to explain!
4. As a lawyer, and someone who has gone through a number of $$ disputes with clients down the years, I think we need to be careful of Joey's side of the story. Yes he had a tight contract, but a number of the claims he makes are dependent on assertions from Chase - not Joeys direct knowledge. IMO this shows how careless Joey was about operations/delivery. Keep in mind Laurel won the chargeback of the deposit. That suggests to me she had at least some hard evidence of non-deliver. Paypal don't just charge back 14K out of Joey's account on Laurel's say so.
IMO the significance of Provecho is in how Chase is so focussed on it. The defence is hell bent on proving the $19K was a "non balance sheet item" and not a real debt. But we know it IS a real debt because we have Chase admitting it beyond any doubt.
Is Chase inadvertently revealing his guilty knowledge here?
Yes Provecho was 2 years earlier, but we know by 2010 Joey was looking to recoup the 19K and more besides. Then Chase starts stealing.
I think Joey finally realised how bad the bleeding was and decided to tighten up the cash. Whatever his plans were, this is also the time when MSM were apparently telling him that Chase was a bum and that a payment was missing. According to David Sequeida the arrangement whereby MSM provided the workshop, machinery and all fabrication while Chase took most of the money for doing not much was not sustainable. Whether or not Joey would have gone with MSM doesn't matter. The point is they told him how he was getting played.
I think in the last months of his life Joey was maturing as an entrepreneur. He had been very sales oriented but he showed signs of actually working on his business. It was growing. I suspect he realised he had outgrown Chase. Too much hard work. Too unreliable. Too untrustworthy.
Chase's focus on whitewashing Provecho reveals it mattered. I think they fought about it, in the context of the first fraudulent cheque.
1. The ins and outs of the Provecho dispute as between Joey and Laurel is irrelevant to the murder case.
2. The importance of Provecho is that Chase has admitted 2x that he got the 19K but then Maline attempted to mislead the Court about it. This proves the defence is lying. This is very critical. Maline is not just trying to elicit and alternative view from a witness. He is using a witness to construct false testimony. This is what Chase was organising in the jail house tape and what he means when he says Maline will "lead". This is a breach of attorney ethics and duties to the court
3. Receiving an email from a missing/dead man is obviously freaking key. If Chase didn't send it, of course he should have reported it! If Mikey sent it and told Chase - the defence need to explain!
4. As a lawyer, and someone who has gone through a number of $$ disputes with clients down the years, I think we need to be careful of Joey's side of the story. Yes he had a tight contract, but a number of the claims he makes are dependent on assertions from Chase - not Joeys direct knowledge. IMO this shows how careless Joey was about operations/delivery. Keep in mind Laurel won the chargeback of the deposit. That suggests to me she had at least some hard evidence of non-deliver. Paypal don't just charge back 14K out of Joey's account on Laurel's say so.
IMO the significance of Provecho is in how Chase is so focussed on it. The defence is hell bent on proving the $19K was a "non balance sheet item" and not a real debt. But we know it IS a real debt because we have Chase admitting it beyond any doubt.
Is Chase inadvertently revealing his guilty knowledge here?
Yes Provecho was 2 years earlier, but we know by 2010 Joey was looking to recoup the 19K and more besides. Then Chase starts stealing.
I think Joey finally realised how bad the bleeding was and decided to tighten up the cash. Whatever his plans were, this is also the time when MSM were apparently telling him that Chase was a bum and that a payment was missing. According to David Sequeida the arrangement whereby MSM provided the workshop, machinery and all fabrication while Chase took most of the money for doing not much was not sustainable. Whether or not Joey would have gone with MSM doesn't matter. The point is they told him how he was getting played.
I think in the last months of his life Joey was maturing as an entrepreneur. He had been very sales oriented but he showed signs of actually working on his business. It was growing. I suspect he realised he had outgrown Chase. Too much hard work. Too unreliable. Too untrustworthy.
Chase's focus on whitewashing Provecho reveals it mattered. I think they fought about it, in the context of the first fraudulent cheque.
It's a smoking gun.
Not Provecho itself but the $19K. That is why Maline specifically confronts the witness with that line item in the spreadsheet - trying to claim it wasn't a "real debt"
But we know Chase got the 19k. Why is he so desperate to trick the court into thinking he didn't get it?
Why doesn't the defence just admit it was a bad debt from the client that led to Chase owing this money back to Joey (less expenses?)
Why did Chase agree he owed this money to Joey when allegedly he did nothing wrong?
Exactly
So why doesn't the defence just say that? After all the defence have direct knowledge of exactly what happened right?
Or just maybe, Provecho provided good documentation to justify the chargeback and Chase really did owe Joey 19K - as `Chase himself admitted in the jail house tape
Sooner or later Missy, you have to confront the fact that the defence is simply lying here.
Tortoise
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The bigger picture is being lost here.
It's what Chase thought on February 4th that matters, if his motive was financial. He's told Cathy a month ago what he believed at the time of the murders, even if his experts can find a way of showing in 2019 he shouldn't have agreed to it or didn't legally owe it. In 2010 he may have thought Joey was wrong to claw it back from him in installments, or not, but either way it's still motive.
Joseph got stiffed for $32000 and he was doing a lawsuit against them but him and I had decided that if our lawsuit, if he lost or you know if he didn’t get the money back, that him and I would each, we, we would split it. Well I was supposed to, I was supposed to give him back $19000 over a period of time.
My thinking on it regarding liability to Joey is that Chase installed it before he had the cheque in the bank, knowing that this was their business practice to prevent situations of this nature happening. He left them exposed to it.
JMO
This is from Prosecution Opening statements, and i think because this is information the Jury will be deliberating on to make the determination if the prosecutors proved their case in this regard via evidence.
(quote)
This is the email he provides San Diego and it’ll become important here in a little bit as well - February 1st at 11.42 am. What he doesn’t mention as he’s trying to explain this to these I’m sure very tired detectives who’ve been working two days trying to find this family, is he never mentions that the total that he owes Joseph is $42,845. Not Joseph owing him $11,000.
Chase paid $173,255, owed $158,000 has been overpaid $15,045, plus $27,800. He doesn’t mention that when he’s explaining and what he ends up saying is Joseph’s gonna owe me $11,000 after these two projects. Because 26K minus 15K is about 11K.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/opening-statements.413276/
(quote)
This is the email he provides San Diego and it’ll become important here in a little bit as well - February 1st at 11.42 am. What he doesn’t mention as he’s trying to explain this to these I’m sure very tired detectives who’ve been working two days trying to find this family, is he never mentions that the total that he owes Joseph is $42,845. Not Joseph owing him $11,000.
Chase paid $173,255, owed $158,000 has been overpaid $15,045, plus $27,800. He doesn’t mention that when he’s explaining and what he ends up saying is Joseph’s gonna owe me $11,000 after these two projects. Because 26K minus 15K is about 11K.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/opening-statements.413276/
Yes. And Laurel must have had some hard documentation that justified the chargeback too. I guess this is why he agreed to pay Joey the 19k back.
Do we have this spreadsheet?
It's been referred to a few times but I have never seen the exhibit
BBM, I don't know if we have the spreadsheet? I gather the prosecution have it though, because this was all referred to in OS.
This also from audio of Chase Merritt
Audio of CM;
“right now behind, well actually right now we’re pretty much even because these two projects …$173,000 is what he has paid me $158,000 is what he owed me before these two projects, came to I owe him $15,000. [inaudible] with these two projects ..$26,000. So he was then owing me a little over $10,000, somewhere almost $11,000.”
Audio of CM;
“right now behind, well actually right now we’re pretty much even because these two projects …$173,000 is what he has paid me $158,000 is what he owed me before these two projects, came to I owe him $15,000. [inaudible] with these two projects ..$26,000. So he was then owing me a little over $10,000, somewhere almost $11,000.”
Tortoise
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LOL at the judge excluding the discussion about Provecho from the jailhouse tapes at the earlier motion hearing. He wasn't on to the defense's game yet, remember him saying he couldn't see the relevance, but we didn't hear the defense scrambling to explain the relevance, even though it was them that needed to get that photo into evidence.
JMO
JMO
Tortoise
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I have a copy of the email but not the spreadsheet attachment to the email, we've only been able to see portions of it from the bad L&C coverage.
Yes I use EBay and PayPal so i have experience of both and eBay will screw the seller over as soon as look at you. But PayPal is not like that at all.
I had sometime try to rip me off for $2000 on a charge back and I will give PayPal their due they took all my evidence and after 8 weeks sided with me. It was long and drawn out as I had to prove my case so Laurel would of had a case or they wouldn’t of sided with her.
Thanks mate I forgot about that.
So Chase's back of a *advertiser censored* packet 26-15=11 calculation makes no sense unless Joey were to actually withhold 15K cash in payments to allow the two tallies to sync up
Otherwise you just add 26K to both ledgers and Chase still owes Joey 15
This is really quite fascinating because within 45 mins of that Chase is creating a fraudulent cheque and the next day creates a cheque for 2495 which he cashed bringing his total Joey debt to over 45K
I wonder if Joey threatened to withhold all the Saudi and Mitchell money? So knowing there was no cash inbound - he went over there and killed him so he could create more cheques. it's really that immediate and obvious
Agreed - i recently had the opposite where I had a monthly subscription service but my credit card expired. Yet stripe still put through 2 more payments (somehow) for the vendor. As i hadn't be using the service recently i had lost track of it and not updated the card.
Sometime later my bank charged back the vendor because the card was not valid. The vendor contacted me but there was not much I could say as they had charged an expired card when they should not have done so.
But in general to charge back the underlying credit card there has to be a good reason with documentation/evidence.
Joey had a signed contract and proof of delivery. So in order to charge back the actual deposit (not the completion) i suspect Laurel had some very good evidence. Likely witnesses and emails.
Thanks for posting it up Tortoise.
And there it is by Joey, sent to Merritt on the 1st, of Feb. 2010, making the date 3 days before the McStay family were murdered, that Merritt owed Joey $42,845.
Did that cause a problem?, i would say definitely, yes it did.
I think the million pound question is why did Joey tolerate Chase?
This goes beyond being a nice guy from what i am seeing.
For example did Joey pay Chase in instalments when he got paid , nope he got the whole lot. So then why on earth would he say “‘ok you owe me this much give it to me over a period of time”. Just imagine if Joey had tried to pay Chase like that I don’t think it would of gone over well
This goes beyond being a nice guy from what i am seeing.
For example did Joey pay Chase in instalments when he got paid , nope he got the whole lot. So then why on earth would he say “‘ok you owe me this much give it to me over a period of time”. Just imagine if Joey had tried to pay Chase like that I don’t think it would of gone over well
Mica
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Somebody was in Joey’s computer. The passwords to his accounts were posted online.
Because he was in an abusive relationship
I've seen a similar thing between siblings. I suspect Joey was also scared of Chase.
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