CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #5

[QueenBofOB]

If you lived in CA (or surrounding states) you would be painfully aware of the gang problems in the southern desert area. The desert provides a burial place for many brutal killings. There are many young people who are attracted to the gang life, primarily as an "easy" source of income. There are spin-off and splinter gangs working that area. It offers a fast, relatively safe (from prying eyes) route for drug running. This article specifically targets San Bernadino, but many skeletons and skulls are found along the desert highway. The most dangerous cities in America, ranked Murders, kidnappings, muggings, etc. can be commissioned easily and for ridiculously low $$$.

I actually live in San Diego and have done so, all of my life. Yes, we have gang and drug problems. But, I haven't seen any killings, by Mexican Cartels here. I would think that if such a thing happened, it would be all over the news. There were some American teenagers recently killed by a cartel, but that was down in Tijuana.

 

[QueenBofOB]

I don't disagree with you katy, but I do think that we don't know how or what Joey felt. That's the problem that I see. We have the benefit of knowing everything that we do, from before and from after. But Joey didn't, or maybe did and still trusted him.

I really can't recall because there has been so much info... but did Joey ever say anything to anyone about not trusting Chase?

I watched a Gray Hughes video on Youtube, when he was interviewing Gina in FL, JM's associate. She mentioned a convo they had in Nov., when she had urged him to cut ties with CM (he has had a bad rep for yrs, shoddy wkmnship, ripping people off, etc.). However, she said he felt that CM "needed him" and that JM "knew how to handle him." Very sad how he did so much for him and even considered the creep a real friend.

 

[missy1974]

Maybe it's just me---but I am not giving anyone my banking passwords but my husband and grown kids.

I don't think many people give out that private financial info to other people. Employees included.

There is no reason that I can think of, that Joey would tell Chase to write himself some checks, backdate a few, and delete them all. That is such a stretch.

And that the' backdate ' just happened to be on the 4th, the last day that Joey was known to be alive. Quite a coincidence.

I understand what you are saying katy, but Quickbooks was not linked to his bank account directly. Businesses allow their employee's access to QB's all the time. In fact, Elva Fonseca, Chase's former employee, had access to Chase's QB's when she worked for him.


From part of the transcript that you posted earlier tonight:

Q When you write a check from QuickBooks, does it automatically debit the money from an account?
A If the user has a credit card, a bank card, somethinglike that associated with QuickBooks, it can debit. It can be linked to Pay Pal, those type of things. But Joseph basically used these accounts for an online ledger where he created invoices, he wrote checks and kept track of his money coming and going out. But it was not actually associated to a bank.

 

[katydid23]

I don't disagree with you katy, but I do think that we don't know how or what Joey felt. That's the problem that I see. We have the benefit of knowing everything that we do, from before and from after. But Joey didn't, or maybe did and still trusted him.

I really can't recall because there has been so much info... but did Joey ever say anything to anyone about not trusting Chase?

I don't know for sure if he had told anyone he didnt trust Chase.

But he did know about Chase's past criminal history. And he did know about Chase's ongoing money problems. And I assume that he knew Chase loved to gamble.

I think the combination of the above info, would have given him pause, when thinking about giving Chase total access to his online banking info.

 

[travelbug]

I actually live in San Diego and have done so, all of my life. Yes, we have gang and drug problems. But, I haven't seen any killings, by Mexican Cartels here. I would think that if such a thing happened, it would be all over the news. There were some American teenagers recently killed by a cartel, but that was down in Tijuana.

I believe the original post mentioned a hit man/men. That doesn't mean that a hit had to be ordered from a Mexican Cartel, it could be a biker gang, a druggie, a gambling enforcer, etc. It could even be "contract" placed by a McStay enemy who left town (for an alibi). jmho

 

[katydid23]

I understand what you are saying katy, but Quickbooks was not linked to his bank account directly. Businesses allow their employee's access to QB's all the time. In fact, Elva Fonseca, Chase's former employee, had access to Chase's QB's when she worked for him.


From part of the transcript that you posted earlier tonight:

Q When you write a check from QuickBooks, does it automatically debit the money from an account?
A If the user has a credit card, a bank card, somethinglike that associated with QuickBooks, it can debit. It can be linked to Pay Pal, those type of things. But Joseph basically used these accounts for an online ledger where he created invoices, he wrote checks and kept track of his money coming and going out. But it was not actually associated to a bank.

But it did create actual checks, which could then be cashed, and taken from his account.

And just because Chase gave his QB info to someone, that isn't the same thing , imo. Chase didn't have the same funds that JM had in his account.

 

[fridaybaker]

But she'd been painting all week. Maybe she got paint on her bra on another day. Let it dry, that bra became what she painted in...

But the sideways drip?

 

[missy1974]

But it did create actual checks, which could then be cashed, and taken from his account.

And just because Chase gave his QB info to someone, that isn't the same thing , imo. Chase didn't have the same funds that JM had in his account.

I was using Chase as an example, the dollar amount is irrelevant IMO You are saying that an employer never allows an employee to access the quickbooks account, and I'm disagreeing. Again, without knowing exactly how Joey felt about Chase, it's hard for us to know if Joey trusted him enough or not. I'm like you, I wouldn't have... but I don't know what Joey would do. JMO

 

[missy1974]

Ok... I was reading an old CNN transcript and I'm curious about this comment...

KAYE: But he didn't let anything was wrong...

P. MCSTAY: No, nothing was wrong.

KAYE: ... on your last conversation.

P. MCSTAY: You know, everything is fine.

KAYE: In fact things were better than fine. Joseph had just received a big paycheck for one of his fountains, $16,000.

P. MCSTAY: He was going to go to the bank and deposit a check. There was a branch of the bank right there at Rancho Cucamonga by where Chase lived.
​

Does this mean he told Patrick that he was going to the RC bank? Does that mean that Patrick knew that he was going to meet Chase for lunch that day?

CNN.com - Transcripts

ETA: I need to go to bed, but hoping to get some opinions on this statement by the time I wake up LOL

 

[windrower]

No disrespect, but are you up to date on JM's QB accounts? Where CM fraudulently wrote and signed JM's signature on those checks, post "missing family" dates? It IS in the record and testified to so far?

We don't know that this was done "fraudulently", only that it was done. Where is the proof that Joey didn't give him permission? OR, for that matter, ask him to.

Wouldn't it be up to CM's defense team to prove Joey gave him permission or ask him to?

 

[travelbug]

Ok... I was reading an old CNN transcript and I'm curious about this comment...

KAYE: But he didn't let anything was wrong...

P. MCSTAY: No, nothing was wrong.

KAYE: ... on your last conversation.

P. MCSTAY: You know, everything is fine.

KAYE: In fact things were better than fine. Joseph had just received a big paycheck for one of his fountains, $16,000.

P. MCSTAY: He was going to go to the bank and deposit a check. There was a branch of the bank right there at Rancho Cucamonga by where Chase lived.
​

Does this mean he told Patrick that he was going to the RC bank? Does that mean that Patrick knew that he was going to meet Chase for lunch that day?

CNN.com - Transcripts

ETA: I need to go to bed, but hoping to get some opinions on this statement by the time I wake up LOL

Yes he did, in fact he also spoke frequently about his work and friendship with CM during his calls with PM.

 

[Plumeria5]

Ok... I was reading an old CNN transcript and I'm curious about this comment...

KAYE: But he didn't let anything was wrong...

P. MCSTAY: No, nothing was wrong.

KAYE: ... on your last conversation.

P. MCSTAY: You know, everything is fine.

KAYE: In fact things were better than fine. Joseph had just received a big paycheck for one of his fountains, $16,000.

P. MCSTAY: He was going to go to the bank and deposit a check. There was a branch of the bank right there at Rancho Cucamonga by where Chase lived.
​

Does this mean he told Patrick that he was going to the RC bank? Does that mean that Patrick knew that he was going to meet Chase for lunch that day?

CNN.com - Transcripts

ETA: I need to go to bed, but hoping to get some opinions on this statement by the time I wake up LOL

Hope I met the morning deadline in your timezone. Great find! That sure sounds to me like Patrick knew Joey was going to meet CM. Do we know if that check successfully got deposited on the 4th? I suppose the bank videos were long gone by the time the family was found. Wonder if JM was in the bank alone or if he ever made it to the bank. The time of the deposit would help with the timeline on the 4th.

 

[HelenK]

The owner did not allow them to?

As I recall, that was precisely the case. She had a small child/children, and was being protective of them.

 

[Tortoise]

Good point... by the 17th when that interview took place, had Chase already talked to Dan? or Mike and Susan talked to Dan and relayed that info? Had Mike already found information on the computer about the 'buy-out' to Dan?

I don't think so missy, if you look at his wording he starts by saying 'I knew that Joseph had almost paid him off', not I know. And although not in the part I posted, he also says that Joey talked about that all the time.

 

[mrjitty]

Wouldn't it be up to CM's defense team to prove Joey gave him permission or ask him to?

Exactly.

They have the relevant witness afterall.

 

[mrjitty]

But it did create actual checks, which could then be cashed, and taken from his account.

And just because Chase gave his QB info to someone, that isn't the same thing , imo. Chase didn't have the same funds that JM had in his account.

In any case, we can safely assume Joey did not give CM permission to fraudulently sign the cheques.

Furthermore, the falsification of the official business records in QB has further legal implications

It is valid to ask what can we legitimately infer from the QB evidence

However the jury may not indulge in speculation to explain away each point of circumstantial evidence in isolation.

This is specifically not allowed as it leads to logical fallacies.

 

[mrjitty]

RBBM. Was he deleting the transactions to hide them from Joey, or was he hiding them from Dan at Joey's request? I know it's reaching but the defense might claim this so it's something to think about.

Was he also fraudulently signing the cheques at Joey's request?

 

[HelenK]

None of us know what new evidence will be be, whether it will be more compelling in favor or against the defendant.

Truer words were never spoken.

 

[mrjitty]

Here's an addendum question to that. If Chase killed Joseph and wrote the checks knowing he was dead, why delete the checks at all? LE would know the checks had been written if they looked at Joey's bank statements. So it would actually be more suspicious if those checks were deleted from Quickbooks.

My thought is there is another explanation.

Well first up, this kind of fraud is hardly elite level crime wave. So anyone doing this is quite likely to be discovered as indeed it appears Joey did discovered the fraud within one day! So the whole "Chase would never be this stupid" defence doesn't stack up for me. Indeed his history seems to indicate he was a pretty blatant conman.

However, with Joey dead, there is significant added value, because there is a good chance no one will try to reconcile the accounts.

In Quickbooks, the existence of the activity won't show up - remember as far as CM knows it will be key not to have any activity after 4 Feb. Therefore deleting hides the QB account activity at least to initial inspection. This is just as important as the cheque dates. i.e. its all very well backdating the cheque but if the QB record was created/edited on 5 Feb then this will stick out like a sore thumb to the first person who logs in! So delete delete!

In the bank statements there will indeed be the deleted cheques to CM. But unless you cross check these to Quickbooks, you won't necessarily have any reason to think they are not legit cheques.

Indeed in order for this fraud to come to light, you have to look for those check numbers in QBs. When you don't find them, that is when you will start looking for explanations.

When i used to run a small business I reconciled my accounts to my bank statements once per month.

When they don't reconcile, that is when I know there is a missing expense invoice in my accounts, or a figure is entered wrong.

With Joey dead - IMO know one was ever going to do that except the police. And it took 4 years to happen!

 

[Tortoise]

She did seem certain she saw Chase on that Monday and that it was mid-morning.

Not true. Carmen testified she was unsure what time she saw him.