CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #4

[Yvettea]

In most cases a body is released to the mortuary immediately after autopsy.
Imo after autopsy—before tox’ analysis the coroner has been briefed by pathologists and has a pretty good idea on CoD and spoken with next of kin. I had a situation requiring a death investigation and was able to proceed with celebration of life arrangements the moment the autopsy was completed. I had to wait appx 90 days for the final autopsy report.
The reason I referenced “those people” was to use as an example of length of time between death and CoD if tox’ analysis was performed.

Have you (or anyone) heard if the family has been cremated?

You are our only local responder.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

If people are swarming the areas where JG and EC hiked it seems someone else would have encountered some difficulties from heat, exhaustion, algae toxins.

Environmental causes? Maybe not after all.

Well, it's not 109*F there anymore.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

If people are swarming the areas where JG and EC hiked it seems someone else would have encountered some difficulties from heat, exhaustion, algae toxins.

Environmental causes? Maybe not after all.

Other than public safety alerts there is simply no way to keep everyone out of a large forest.
If you are so inclined you can see the rentals available and how easily one can walk from their yard deep into the woods.
Moo

 

[PerplexedPatty]

You are our only local responder.

I’m not in Mariposa at this time, I’ll be back there 10-18.

 

[everybodhi]

If people are swarming the areas where JG and EC hiked it seems someone else would have encountered some difficulties from heat, exhaustion, algae toxins.

Environmental causes? Maybe not after all.

Closer to the day they were located, the following day, one of the SAR team had to be evacuated due to heat exhaustion and the dogs were pulled out due to burned paw pads. This is linked early in the threads.
Here are two temperature graphs, the first includes the day of their hike, Aug 16, the second includes today.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/mariposa/95338/august-weather/332014?year=2021

 

[rahod1]

Was the carrier new?

Also, did the witness that reported seeing the family at 7:45 have a camera that verified the precise time?

Why would someone have a camera handy when there would be no reason to take a picture in the first place? After all, this is all in retrospect, so they would have no reason to take photo, or any recording for that matter, at the time. <modsnip>

 

[PerplexedPatty]

What is the difference between an autopsy and a toxicology report?


An autopsy is an external and internal examination of a deceased person's body to determine cause of death. A toxicology report is an analysis of the decedent's bodily fluids to determine whether that person had any poisons, drugs or alcohol in her system when she died
Autopsy Report Vs. Toxicology Report -


Some of the tests take days, weeks, months," says Alan Hall, MD, a board-certified toxicologist and consultant in Laramie, Wyo. The final toxicology report, he says, draws not only from multiple test results and confirmation of the results, but also on the clinical experience of the toxicologists and pathologists involved in the investigation, as well as field work.

Here is what toxicology tests include, why they take so long, and why they can be tricky.

The Truth About Toxicology Tests

 

[everybodhi]

Other than public safety alerts there is simply no way to keep everyone out of a large forest.
If you are so inclined you can see the rentals available and how easily one can walk from their yard deep into the woods.
Moo

The closures were lifted Sept 17.

Federal officials close river after mysterious deaths of California family and their dog

 

[PerplexedPatty]

The closures were lifted Sept 17.

Federal officials close river after mysterious deaths of California family and their dog

It was extended, linked upthread.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

Why would someone have a camera handy when there would be no reason to take a picture in the first place? After all, this is all in retrospect, so they would have no reason to take photo, or any recording for that matter, at the time. MOO>> Why is *Precise time* of the sighting important? If it's 15 min...give or take?? Just asking.

lol ever hear of trail cams or RING motion system?
Moo, LE prefer preciseness when possible.

 

[rahod1]

lol ever hear of trail cams or RING motion system?
Moo, LE prefer preciseness when possible.

Thanks for the response. Reason I posted is that your question was about the WITNESS, not other external systems that may be in place. I assume the witness was someone other than LE???

"Also, did the witness that reported seeing the family at 7:45 have a camera that verified the precise time?"

 

[everybodhi]

What is the difference between an autopsy and a toxicology report?


An autopsy is an external and internal examination of a deceased person's body to determine cause of death. A toxicology report is an analysis of the decedent's bodily fluids to determine whether that person had any poisons, drugs or alcohol in her system when she died
Autopsy Report Vs. Toxicology Report -


Some of the tests take days, weeks, months," says Alan Hall, MD, a board-certified toxicologist and consultant in Laramie, Wyo. The final toxicology report, he says, draws not only from multiple test results and confirmation of the results, but also on the clinical experience of the toxicologists and pathologists involved in the investigation, as well as field work.

Here is what toxicology tests include, why they take so long, and why they can be tricky.

The Truth About Toxicology Tests

From your link: The Truth About Toxicology Tests

"Toxicology testing is part of the autopsy report, Robin says. "A complete autopsy should have some level of toxicology studies.""

 

[PerplexedPatty]

From your link: The Truth About Toxicology Tests

"Toxicology testing is part of the autopsy report, Robin says. "A complete autopsy should have some level of toxicology studies.""

Exactly, when performed it becomes part of the report.
I find nothing stating tox’ is Required in all autopsies as I assume all to. It be “complete” autopsies. Moo

 

[Auntie Cipation]

The closures were lifted Sept 17.

Federal officials close river after mysterious deaths of California family and their dog

It was extended, linked upthread.

In addition to the algae-related closure, there were regionwide forest closures due to fire risk and lack of resources to fight new fires. They overlapped in time IIRC. I think the fire closures were cancelled for most forests (including the Sierra NF) on 9/15. I don't recall an extension beyond that for algae/hazard reasons -- can you bring forward the post or say who posted it so I can search the thread? TIA

 

[PerplexedPatty]

In addition to the algae-related closure, there were regionwide forest closures due to fire risk and lack of resources to fight new fires. They overlapped in time IIRC. I think the fire closures were cancelled for most forests (including the Sierra NF) on 9/15. I don't recall an extension beyond that for algae/hazard reasons -- can you bring forward the post or say who posted it so I can search the thread? TIA

#721

 

[Auntie Cipation]

#721

Thank you. Bringing forward (if you click the up arrow next to sfinkz' name, to go to the actual earlier post, you can see the attachment that is the forest's closure order):

Yes, the extension of the Merced River South Fork trailhead closures in vicinity of Hites Cove was extended yesterday, the day it was to expire, until October 29.

eta: well, couldn’t upload file of order extending closure, talked with SNF info officer who spent a long time confirming extension, hidden under ‘alerts’ on SNF home page.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

That's not true though.
LE did release a few information in regards to footprints found near the trailhead, and that premise led to the whole investigation believing that the family may have almost went around the whole loop.
I haven't heard anything else since then, nothing, nada to learn about anything like what kind of situations they were in or by informing the public about their activity with any additional clues found.

This lack of information is giving the wrong impression and added confusion to the public because as it seems for now, the family just appeared out of nowhere because there's not a single sign of activity surrounding them or the path they've taken all along?

Other cases like PK mentioned here had GPS device to prove heatstroke as the cause.
JG had a phone equipped with GPS quite definitely, why not provide any more new clues? It's been over a whole month now.

We know some tox’ tests have been returned, Sheriff B declined to identify returned tests. His refusal to elaborate leads me to believe a non-environmental “toxin” was found in the water the family had and at the time of his comment tests had not been confirmed by a second or third party lab OR they had not narrowed down the toxin.
Moo

 

[jonjon747]

We know some tox’ tests have been returned, Sheriff B declined to identify returned tests. His refusal to elaborate leads me to believe a non-environmental “toxin” was found in the water the family had and at the time of his comment tests had not been confirmed by a second or third party lab OR they had not narrowed down the toxin.
Moo

I highly doubt that there is any kind of non-environmental poisonous substance in their bladder or in the water bottles they were carrying.
Just if, that turns out to be the case, it'd most likely be a homicide, not a suicide though.

But the problem with that is, say they were all poisoned knowingly or not, there would be plenty of indications all over at the scene.

How likely is that a man stays seated and dies as if had gone asleep?
Why is the woman goes further out in front and lies dead while looking like she was in motion?

Nothing here makes any sense. Idk what type of substance you have in mind,
but if they were drugged, wouldn't they be feeling tired and lethargic, how were they able to hike so much in such a hot weather?

I think they would've turned around, returned to their vehicle very early.

MOO

 

[RedHaus]

I too can think of arguments against @Parsnip 's scenario.

I can't imagine an illegal grow on slopes so steep, nor so near to popular (except for July/Aug heat) trails. I think there would be plenty of places more hidden, both from the public and from land management activities such as trail maintenance etc, where illegal operations could go undetected or at least more so.

Second, an illegal grow would not put a plane in the air to aerially spray anything, as the plane would be visible and trackable. They would spray by hand or atv, or apply "whatever-cides" using their irrigation system, IMO.

Lastly, while I'm a staunch environmentalist opposed to all sorts of toxic stuff that others use on the regular in their landscaping and lawn care, I'm not aware of any "whatever-cide" that would kill instantly like that. I think more of increased cancer rates etc.

Someone earlier in the thread talked about trip wires that spray poison -- I suppose that's possible and I know nothing about what poisons might be used, but again I would fall back on a well-used road and trail system not being a likely location for illicit activity, combined with the idea that the poison would have to have been undetectable in the autopsy (or on the ground around the victims, assuming LE tested nearby soil and plants for poisons, which I think we read they did, given the river algae toxin focus at the beginning of the case).

I'm trying to come up with a scenario other than heat that makes sense to me, but so far have drawn a blank.

Well, @Auntie Cipation there is always Carbofuran. A very small amount can kill a human instantly. It is used widely among grow operators and is devistating to animal / bird populations. It was I who posited a spray trap scenario off trail way back. This audubon article stoked that.

This Brutal Pesticide Creates a 'Circle of Death.' So Why Is It Making a Comeback?

p.s. many pesticides can kill quickly at the right dose and duration of exposure. That is by design, right?

 

[Parsnip]

One thing is very clear to me. In evaluating the hypothetical scenario I proposed, multiple responders have been able to point to prior posts and discussions to poke holes in it. Speaking for myself, I don’t see much if any ground that hasn’t already been covered, given the information we have. MOO