CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #5

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HannahJJJ

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LE has ruled out exposure to illicit drugs or alcohol, so I don't think fentanyl would have been a factor in their deaths.

Certain forms of fentanyl are not illegal/illicit. Powder form may be...analogs are.

I may not be recalling accurately: based on the recent LE release a couple of days ago and regarding what has and hasn't been ruled out, I also wonder about legal pesticides but ones used in this case not for insect control.

In my view, life is almost always not simple, but making your way through the complicated maze, one starts with the most "simple" known: the fact that a baby girl and another baby, a thick furred-one, were found dead...I cannot see a mother and father under normal circumstances taking them there. Yes, I'm one of the people who does not believe that accidental/innocent-occurring HS is COD. Moo. All Moo.
 
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Pumphouse363

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It’s comparable in terms of venturing to a dangerous area without fully either calculating or appreciating the risks or conditions, imo.
No - I don’t consider going to a beach a risk unless it is considered a very dangerous one - in which case I wouldn’t take my dog or my children.
 

Pumphouse363

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It’s comparable in terms of venturing to a dangerous area without fully either calculating or appreciating the risks or conditions, imo.
No - I don’t consider going to a beach a risk unless it is considered a very dangerous one - in which case I wouldn’t take my dog or my children.
It’s comparable in terms of venturing to a dangerous area without fully either calculating or appreciating the risks or conditions, imo.
And this is exactly why I don’t believe Jon and Ellen would have done that hike.
 

MsBetsy

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Certain forms of fentanyl are not illegal/illicit. Powder form may be...analogs are.

I may not be recalling accurately: based on the recent LE release a couple of days ago and regarding what has and hasn't been ruled out, I also wonder about legal pesticides but ones used in this case not for insect control.

In my view, life is almost always not simple, but making your way through the complicated maze, one starts with the most "simple" known: the fact that a baby girl and another baby, a thick furred-one, were found dead...I cannot see a mother and father under normal circumstances taking them there. Yes, I'm one of the people who does not believe that accidental/innocent-occurring HS is COD. Moo. All Moo.
Fentanyl is a narcotic and when taken without a prescription, is illegal. I have not seen any indication that either of the Chungs suffered from chronic pain. Even if someone slipped it into their water, it's likely it was obtained illegally.

They were both experienced hikers as far as we have heard. It was in the eighties that morning so it doesn't seem strange to me to start out on a hike early in the morning. They could have planned to be back before noon or even 11:00 am, for all we know.
 

MsBetsy

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No - I don’t consider going to a beach a risk unless it is considered a very dangerous one - in which case I wouldn’t take my dog or my children.
It can be dangerous to swim in certain conditions. A strong undertow or rip current can pull even a confident and experienced swimmer out to sea. It's not uncommon for people to overestimate their capabilities or underestimate the danger they might face.
 

Pumphouse363

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It can be dangerous to swim in certain conditions. A strong undertow or rip current can pull even a confident and experienced swimmer out to sea. It's not uncommon for people to overestimate their capabilities or underestimate the danger they might face.
I agree.
 

Pumphouse363

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Fentanyl is a narcotic and when taken without a prescription, is illegal. I have not seen any indication that either of the Chungs suffered from chronic pain. Even if someone slipped it into their water, it's likely it was obtained illegally.

They were both experienced hikers as far as we have heard. It was in the eighties that morning so it doesn't seem strange to me to start out on a hike early in the morning. They could have planned to be back before noon or even 11:00 am, for all we know.
I agree.
 

lotus777

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I'm aware of such difficulty in dealing with heatstroke as the primary cod, but here we got 4 bodies.
The baby wasn't moving much at all I'd have to guess in terms of the activity level in hiking,
and the dog I suppose has a different body mechanism than humans.
Can't autopsy experts or coroners find anything, I mean any clue from those 4 bodies?

Four bodies versus one doesn't decrease the difficulty of determining heat stroke as a COD.

I'm sure they have clues as to COD but they have to wait for toxicology to be able to rule out other CODs and thus to report any determinations. They don't share "clues" with the public at this point.
 

lotus777

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We don’t know if they had more, right? Did Briese not say dehydration was ruled out (early on) because they had water left? <modsnip>
We hike and trail ride often. Some of us freeze drinks for our packs/saddle bags. Moo

They didn't say dehydration was ruled out. They said they only had "a small amount of water" remaining. Doesn't mean they weren't dehydrated or that they weren't trying to save it (or that it wasn't just enough to test but not much to drink).
 

Kittybunny

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Yes, thanks. And we are not privy to autopsy results in the Gerrish -Chung deaths, afaik. We only know autopsies did not answer questions and autopsied samples were sent for further toxicology testing. Finally, we know “illegal drugs” are off the list. A lot of “legal drugs” are fatal when used inappropriately, moo. Insulin, succinylcholine, fentanyl, to name a few. All MOO

Given the huge number of opioid overdoses in our country, fentanyl is one of the easiest and most common substances tested for as a cause of death - this would not require any sort of further toxicology testing. The others might be a different story.
 

Kittybunny

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What about oral? Powder ingested? Patches and nasal spray (and iv) would avoid first pass metabolism, but oral wouldn't. I wonder about the detection of oral in toxicology testing because of the effect of first pass on the parent drug as opposed to iv (or transdermal or nasal). Perhaps someone here knows. Moo. All Moo.

Whether ingested orally it is still detectable - many Oxycodone fake pills are laced with fentanyl. Just as easy to detect in autopsy.
 

rahod1

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I agree with you. Sometimes people just want to relieve their anguish by accepting the most palatable explanation. I would much prefer to be shown evidence of heatstroke being the COD due to errors of judgement than to believe my son or daughter had been murdered. My point was, it will be a lot less hassle for LE to be able to close the investigation by providing a COD, than it would be to look for evidence of foul play. MOO

MOO>> They have looked for evidence of foul play and apparently haven't found any so far. I don't think lack of finding evidence points to *not looking for that evidence*. Just MOO.
 
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RedHaus

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We may need to create a poll to actually establish whether there is a "nearly unanimous disbelief amongst us" here. I'm not sure it's anywhere as "nearly unanimous" as some may think. A vocal minority may be louder than the silent majority, but it doesn't mean they actually outnumber them.
Point taken, @WillieMac. And I agree, the vocal minority can dim the voice of the silent majority. So I revise my estimate to something more like 50/50, with 50% of us posters and lurkers alike disbelieving the family intentionally hiked the SL that fateful day. Who knows what each of us believes based on our own data analysis... IMO.
 

RickshawFan

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I assumed that EC was wearing the Camelback but it has not been clarified, MOO. I believe there may be inserts for baby carriers, but am not sure, never used one myself. Perhaps others can clarify. LE has seemed to refer to them having one water bladder with them, singular, MOO.
The bladder might have been in the baby carrier. You’d use the same bladder as for regular packs. There’s been no indication that EC was wearing a pack, and she didn’t have her phone with her, so probably not?
 

Pumphouse363

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MOO>> They have looked for evidence of foul play and apparently haven't found any so far. I don't think lack of finding evidence points to *not looking for that evidence*. Just MOO.[
Agree!
 

minazoe

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I don't like the fact that we still have nothing...like less than nothing...it has to be in the toxicology...how could they all die of the heat and there are no physical indicators? ..thats just bizarre....I want Dr. Lee or someone with
major experience in unexplained death. There have to be tell tales of heat stroke. I worry that leaving their bodies out in the elements so long may have damaged or destroyed evidence.

Did the normal things that happen when one expires from heatstroke occur? Things that would make sense?

was there anything suspicious with their belongings? if drugs are involved where are these drugs? or their containers or any evidence of such?

In what ways could they accidentally ingest Fentynal? inhale it? touch it? People who do drugs have paraphernalia so it would be obvious as something would be found pointing to drug use.

does anyone know why they call the area devils gulch? Did they test the water in the bladder for containment's?

just bizarre. If they have to rule it heat related death, I hope they have something other than the temperature that
day to prove it.

mOO
 

Lex Parsimoniae

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That's a good example of wisely turning back. Here's another, two women wisely turning back 2 miles down the Savage Lundy Trail May 25, 2015. That was before the 2018 Ferguson fire burned all the vegetation. Excerpt: "Rita began talking about how hot it would be on the return trip verbalizing my thoughts. It was supposed to be in the 80’s that afternoon, but the canyon was already warm and we were both damp with perspiration. She was also concerned that she may not have brought enough water for herself and her dog.The farther into the canyon we dropped, the more often she brought up turning back and heading out. As I swabbed beaded drops of sweat from my brow, Rita asked, “Do you want to do it, Janet?” Quitting the hike didn’t feel right... I said, “yes, let’s go.” It was the first time I quit a hike without reaching the planned destination... After two miles of uphill hiking, we reached the truck."
 

rahod1

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I don't like the fact that we still have nothing...like less than nothing...it has to be in the toxicology...how could they all die of the heat and there are no physical indicators? ..thats just bizarre....

Well, I have posted here (along with a link) that in many cases it's very difficult to find DIRECT evidence of HS as a COD, and in those cases a determination of HS is done by EXLUDING/RULING OUT all other possible causes. That my very well be the case in this instance. As to ALL dying from HS, you really have TWO ADULT victims with the dependent child and dog tethered to the fate of the adults. If adults perish from HS, so do the dependents. It's not all that *bizarre* when you consider this and the fact they were trapped in the blistering heat and passed the point of no return within the first hour or two. Also, they probably didn't all perish at the same time, but as a family, they would be compelled to stay together. MOO
 
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