Discussion in 'Identified!' started by Richard, Dec 4, 2007.
If a knife suggests"emotionality, whether rage or paranoia." and a personal connection to the victim, as opposed to a cold/ distant murder by gun, then imagine the close relationship a little pen knife might suggest... imo, speculation.
Knife vs. Gun: What a Weapon Reveals
"The close contact required with stabbings could mean more rage, experts say."
"Anytime somebody commits a murder or assault, either by choking, stabbing or making bodily contact, it always speaks to a level of rage and perhaps a personal connection to the victim that shooting with a gun does not," said Naftali Berrill, a forensic psychologist in New York City.
"When you are stabbing someone, it's close and in your face. The experience is more visceral and more graphic, more provocative. It speaks emotionality, whether rage or paranoia."
Thanks Dotr my only caveat would be that its easier to get a knife than a gun....everyone used to carry that kind of knife even as children we called them jacknives.
There are no Jurvetsons in Canada 411 though obviously at least her sister lives here though is not listed. Interestingly only 8 or so are listed in the US all in California. Is there any chance Reet had a relative in CA? Also Google Manson and Montreal connection it is a frustrating short article mentioning other Montrealers had encounters with Manson though the only article is of someone who let a guy stay with him for Expo 67 in 1967 he then went to CA and Manson was there. Now I just said I am not interested in the Manson angle but am if there is any Montreal connection with the M. family. A friend of mine actually thinks the composite and sketches of Jean looks like Manson she has a very very good eye. I don't see it.... what does anyone think? I am going to check city directories to see if I can find anything on her address in Toronto. I am going to check the medical directories too though the artist and medical student angles seem like different people surely......
Coolopolis: Meeting Charles Manson: Montrealer on knowing the '60s hippie murder cult leader
Was she Charles Manson’s first victim? Jane Doe found stabbed in 1969 finally identified as Reet Jurvetson
"Though detectives haven’t found any concrete link between the stabbing of Jurvetson and the Manson family killings, but they haven’t ruled it out either, Rivera said.
He pointed out that Jurvetson was stabbed like most other Manson victims, and that her body was found near the site of some of the Tate killings in the same three-month period.
“We don’t rule anything out,” Rivera said. “Everything is on the table until proven otherwise.”
He said detectives are trying to track down their best lead, a man known as either “John” or the name’s French pronunciation, “Jean”. Jurvetson met the man in Toronto before flying to Los Angeles to see him the summer of 1969, he said.
Police hope renewed media attention will generate tips leading to the man and other witnesses."
The link to Reet's site has some detailed information, like it states her sister is her last living immediate relative, and gives a narrative timeline from her birth to her being in CA. If you haven't checked it out already.
When I first saw pictures of Reet as she was before she was killed, the thing that struck me was she resembled Sharon Tate. That alone may have been enough to trigger this kind of attack, if it were indeed, the Manson family. BUT, by October of '69 investigators started rounding them up and arresting them, so I'm not sure who of the MF hadn't been arrested, who may have been on bail, and who was still behind bars when Reet was murdered, etc. Here's a timeline on them I found.
Manson Family Murders Fast Facts - CNN
Thanks Dotr yes this is the article I meant. I noticed (to stick to my present obsession) it is the LA detective on the case Rivera saying they met in Toronto......unless a mistake by media then that must likely be true. Obviously they could also have been seen in Cafe Prag or Cafe Image (if these names are correct) in Montreal.... Toronto to Montreal is just an overnight bus trip and a shorter drive. I would like to know 1. The rough height of Jean who she liked do we know? 2. What is the timeline between Montreal and her time in Toronto. Did she go to LA from Toronto or go back to Montreal first? How much before her did Jean leave for LA?
LA police news release, rbbm.
1969 Jane Doe No. 59 Murder Victim Identified After 46 Years NR16140rh - Los Angeles Police Department
On July 7, 2016, detectives interviewed a witness in Montreal, Canada regarding the person of interest named "John" or "Jean (possibly French Canadian)." The witness remembers meeting Reet Jurvetson and "John/ Jean" at Café Image in Montreal, Canada, and provided a sketch of "John/Jean" as he appeared in 1969. An additional sketch of an associate was provided, which may help any potential witnesses recall seeing them together. The second male, who was shorter in stature and sported a short "Beatles" type hairstyle. The associate has not been positively identified, but could be named "Jean" as well
On August 20, 2016, detectives received information that Reet Jurvetson's sister, Anne Jurvetson, discovered a postcard written by Reet to their parents, who are now deceased. The postcard was dated October 31, 1969, approximately sixteen days before Reet's body was discovered on Mulholland Drive. The postcard had Reet's return address as 5311 Melrose Avenue, Apt 306, Hollywood, California 90038. The building was once called the Paramount Hotel. However, it was demolished in 1989 and a new building has since been erected since then."
"Los Angeles: On November 16, 1969, the unidentified victim's body, Jane Doe No. 59, was discovered in the brush off of Mulholland Drive near Bowmont Drive. She had been stabbed numerous times in the upper torso and neck area."
"During the course of the investigation, CCHU detectives felt it was necessary to investigate any potential connection to any other crimes during that time period. Due to the location and the time period where Reet Jurvetson was found, and the violent manner of her death, investigators wanted to rule out any possible connection to the notorious "Manson Murders" that occurred during the summer of 1969. Investigators made arrangements to interview Charles Manson to see if he was able to provide any further details or information related to the death of Miss Jurvetson. Their encounter with Manson did not produce anything fruitful and the investigation remains open and ongoing.
Detectives are seeking information from the public in identifying a person of interest named "John" or French name "Jean." Jean was a friend of Reet Jurvetson who she met in Montreal, Canada and also traveled and lived in the United States in 1969."
From this article, it seems like Reet went to LA to meet up with the 2 Jeans who were already living there, imo, speculation.rbbm.
The sketch was made by Montreal artist who knew the victim and her lover before they left for the United States. La Presse had found him in May, after the LAPD launched a wanted notice.
At the end of the ‘60s, the couple patronized the Image café on du Parc Avenue, a Mecca for hippies, where Mr. Robert worked as a waiter. “[Jean] was always clean. He wore a nice jean jacket and a white shirt with his long hair that fell on his shoulders”, the witness had confided to La Presse in May.
The other sketch shows a young man with a “Beatles” haircut. According to the police, he was shorter than Jean. He was also a friend of Reet and could have been in Los Angeles at the time of the murder. “The other man has not yet been officially identified, but his name could be Jean too”, states the LAPD in a release. “Witnesses may remember seeing them together”, hope the Californian police.
We can be (inintentionally) mean on WS I know trying to figure thing out. On the W5 show on Reet towards the end when this Paul Robert (s) the artist is dug up by W5......he is very cooperative at one level, his sketches are really excellent .....he looks to me though and this is maybe unfair that he is not saying everything he is thinking or has thought or knows. Anybody?
I think that article Dotr linked to is exemplary in showing us just how two things that seem separable can have a link....some random person in Montreal in 1967 and the Manson family. As for family member Dennis Decarlo he was I believe from Toronto and lives around Toronto still. There is an interesting interview with him and Manson's youngest member, the (the then at least purely psychopathic) 14 year old online. She subtly brags about a two more or more crimes almost certainly murders they did together later. Maybe just bragging I don't know.
That La Presse article is key in stating that they had a physical relationship...I had assumed so but previous articles I read have been weirdly coy, probably trying to protect her image, saying she was "smitten" by him that kind of thing. Finding Jean becomes really important that is almost certainly possible..... I guess dead or alive at this point.....though still I think he is probably not the culprit. But it makes no sense that she would not say where she was off to after staying just two weeks - and that doesn't jibe with the postcard where she asks for letters from her family. So something happened, a fight between say just verbal for now, knowledge of another girlfriend, her meeting somebody knew or realizing this wasn't going to work.....trouble with this is at the info comes from Jean 2. Did Jean 2 really meet that person in Montreal to say oh yes she stayed with us couple of weeks then left or did he arrange the chance meeting......to get that message across?
I just watched an interview ABC news youtube with the 14 year old I think Deborah Lake? after Manson's death - I must say here she appears quite normal. She said they had a consensual relationship within hours of meeting, but later he anally raped her and she became suicidal. Note the large paintings on the wall I will link later.... is this her art? I know many musicians are quiet about their contact with Manson supposedly a famous Canadian musician I won't name tried to get him a record contract. I have heard some of the music and I can see nothing in it. But now this art connection is bugging me re Reet, abstract art Montreal being a centre for it, also the music angle. There doesn't appear to be any writers in that milieu?
In that ABE interview look at the pictures of a young blonde Diane Lake (name?) and Reet in her home pictures where she is her natural blonde (I would guess) and much more slight and gnomish. It is really close. So at different times she looked like a victim and a family member....of course some of this may have to do with contemporary styles at the time.......but there are not a large population of Estonians in the world.....
She modelled in Toronto a bit....I doubt the address next to Paramount studio was a total accident though I guess we are to believe Jean was there first? I wonder if Jean waitered in LA....you could work under the table in some places in though days e.g. lots of Canadians worked under the table at the Russian Tea Room New York and actually PAID to work at Joe's Stone Crab in Miami for the tips.....
Maybe Reet discovered that one "Jean" was actually in love with the other "Jean", or both "Jeans" were interested in Reet?
Wondering how long before Reet was murdered after penning the letter to her family, noting it was written on Halloween, her body was discovered 16 days later.
I believe she was killed within 24 to 48 hours before she was found. The post mortem photo and the original sketches which were obviously made from it were deceiving because she had already lost a lost of facial mass in the cheeks which were an obviously youthful attractive feature of hers....either that or she hadn't been eating well in LA
I do think that the fact she asks for mail to that address is a clue....she thought she was living there for a while. Also no further postcard to say she is moving on. By the way I don't think it was said that they wrote back to her. how come? When did they receive the postcard?
I believe I read she had sent the postcard home about 2 weeks before she was murdered. It is possible someone did write back to her and either forgot to mention it or felt it wasn't worth mentioning.
Please read carefully due to rules I have to be oblique and sorry my cut and paste function still not working.... so please google In a hurry did Canadian woman's killer.....it is an article about the then very common black frame Liberty brand eyeglasses found 18 metres from Reet's body. If belonging to the murderer they show he was very nearsighted.
1. Further down there is a family photo which includes among others Reet's brother Tonu Jurvetson and his wife Tiiu Jurvetson, Reet, her father etc. Is Reet's brother wearing similar or identical Liberty glasses? Was he nearsighted? Now the photo is probably from a few years before but people didn't change glasses or wear them for fashion as much then.
2. Note Reet's brother and sister have the same first names as the parents of Steve Jurvetson(born I think 1967) venture capitalist, partner of Elon Musk etc. (recently had to step down from his own company due to sexual harassment allegations). On Steve's Wiki there is the same story of fleeing the Soviets in the same year as Reet's family. I think it is the same story and the same family i.e. Reet's brother is the father of Steve Jurvetson? Let me know if I am wrong.
3. Does anyone know anything about Reet's brother Tonu? I only know he is deceased and Reet was supposed to visit him in Arizona. Is it possible he drove to LA to take Reet to California? Is it possible he was upset at Reet's lifestyle if he had caught wind of the methadone (if true) and shacking up with the two Jean's? The postcard of course would have suddenly provided the address. The story about one of them suddenly finding the postcard Reet sent sounded a bit fishy to me. They sound like a private family but this may be more proof that the disapproved of what Reet was doing. The pictures of that hotel she was staying with the Jeans look pretty crummy.
4. Just as an aside many commentators seemed troubled that her family never declared her missing. On the family home page about the case they had an additional family membe later add some reasons why they didn't, a defence due to the criticisms. This person provides a reasonable defence but does not totally dismiss the idea that the father lied about hiring a private detective in LA.
5. Just speaking generally now and not about this case specifically: religiously conservative families can be upset at what they see as errant wayward children especially young women. Also at least in the area I came in Canada from incest and predation upon girls (especially girls I mean) was ubiquitous. Almost every girlfriend I ever had had been got at in some way by a family member it was really that bad. Just saying.... not saying this links to the case.
6. One thing about the glasses I don't understand: when the first policeman arrives at the crime scene he does not go down the embankment DURING THE DAY because of the steep incline... so how do the police believe IN THE NIGHT the glasses got down there? Maybe he had them in his hand and accidentally flung them down there? Did the glasses have blood on them surely this guy should have a lot of blood on him? Had Reet clutched them in her hand or had them become entangled with her clothing? Did the killer actually go down there trying to thrown her past the branches deep into the canyon? It was dark but of course he could have had a flashlight.
7. Please google In a hurry did Canadian woman's killer.....and let us know if you know anything about Tonu, his career, whether he is indeed the father of Steve etc. This would mean Reet would be Steve Jurvetson's aunt.
8. Symbolically stabbing in the throat could mean an attack on a woman's "voice" her individuality her individual identity and what in an argument she had just said say in an argument.
Ronna Syed · CBC News · Posted: Nov 16, 2016
'In a hurry': Did Canadian woman's killer drop his glasses as he got rid of body in L.A. in 1969? | CBC News
"The prescription was –75 for both eyes "at 20/30 and 20/40." The frames were the Liberty brand, available across the U.S. at the time."
"It's possible that the glasses fell out of his pocket or he dropped it and he was in such a panic he didn't notice. And when he did notice he doesn't recall where he dropped it. It was probably pitch black up there. "
"She had been killed within the previous 48 hours, about two hours after having eaten a meal.
Evidence suggested her body had been put in the back seat of a car, dragged out and then around the trunk."
"So the way we see it is she was immobilized, probably on her back, and the person might have been on top of her as he was inflicting the wounds."
"Jurvetson, who worked in a post office in Toronto, had travelled to Hollywood in late October 1969 to visit a friend named Jean. She had known him from her time as a teenager in Montreal".
"One of the two Jeans told Jurvetson's best friend, Gilda Green, months later in Montreal that Jurvetson left after staying with them for two weeks. She didn't tell them where she was headed next.
She had told friends in Toronto and Montreal that she was going to visit her brother."
Yes thanks Dotr and thanks to the moderator that sentence bugged me after all she died as a teenager. I wish they would be more specific is it just these Café Prag Café Image days or did she know him earlier?
The brother died IN CALIFORNIA in 2014 he has some youtube videos with subtitles about the family escaping the Soviets...he has real memories of Tallinn and Estonia as he is so much older than Reet.
On the family home page for Reet it says that the brother Tonu that first got a third party (so we are told) to make enquiries about Reet, sent someone to the apartment. But she had moved out. But wait, were the Jeans still there? Was it one of the Jeans who told the third party she had moved out? If so why then does the Montreal friend of family member meeting Jean 2 (so the story goes) in Montreal not know Reet had moved out?
Tonu also went by Tony.
I am not sleuthing the family but I think it is fair to say that families sometimes cover things up to preserve reputation and that doesn't help figuring out what happened to Reet. Samuel Johnson biographer Boswell's families to this day are ashamed not proud of their famous forebear who lived a bit of a smutty life at times!
Her brother's Facebook is still up last post is 2014 he is an amiable looking man. His last post is to a NFB doc about Montreal in the 60's Another film by NFB Ladies and Gentlemen Mister Leonard Cohen also shows how surprisingly sophisticated (for Canada ) Montreal was then....
Reet's sister in law Tiiu also has some nice videos of emigration and memories of Estonia etc.
For sure Steve is the niece of Reet as I now can see
I admit I am getting obsessed with this case and am maybe going through too many angles. Eventually I promise I will link everything in one email once I get to a internet cafe and have time. One more thing: in the memories of emigration video by Jeet's brother it appears he is saying his father's brother was Konstantin Pats see the LONG wiki article (etc.) on him he was several times a leader of Estonia and Tonu appears to say almost his entire family perished in Siberia, Soviet period only they escaped. Pats was also a prominent journalist. He was put into a series of Soviet mental hospitals they claimed that he had the psychosis of believing he had once been leader of Estonia which he had been.
Now Marina Habe see wiki article on her father hans habe.......... her father was from Budapest real name Bekessy had a slew of last names he used, family was Jewish but converted to Christianity............ when he was very young he was briefly pro-Hitler but he was the teen journalist who uncovered Hitler's real original family name and the fact that Hitler was one quarter Jewish (if true). His books were banned and burned by the Nazis and he had a successful career as a novelist/journalist in the US. Also had an exciting life, French foreign legion, work in psychological warfare for US gov. in charge of setting up post war newspapers like the Neue Zeitung in the American occupation zone, 6 marriages.
It is interesting that these two women Habe and Jurvetson had (immediate family) important relatives that were political in fact very political and then are found if I am now correct on this found in the same bush (?) just 15 feet down the incline in a ritzy neighbourhood where there are houses close to the street on the other side. Were the bodies supposed to go down into the canyon or were they supposed to be found? If the latter then the glasses become probable good evidence. Why leave them there....I don't know LA but surely there are better places not in view of the houses. I wonder what the phases of the moon were on those to nights and the weather? I am not sure if Marina was sexually assaulted or now there appears to be conflicting reports. There were two young scientologists 15 and 19 found stabbed to death relatively close-by in September that year.
It has been said that Marina was dating a JOHN Homburg 22 I don't think they can find him either. I am sure LAPD would have looked at this angle and I guess have discounted it.
Ws thread for MH.
CA - CA - Marina Habe, 17, Los Angeles, 1 Jan 1969
"During the same time, police investigating Jane Doe 59’s death, also investigated any links to the September 23, 1969, murders of Scientologists 15-year old James Sharp and 19-year old Doreen Gaul, who were both found brutally stabbed and dumped in a downtown Los Angeles alley, only one week after Jane Doe 59 was found.
At the time, Det. Lt. Earl A Deemer told the Los Angeles Times, “The wounds of Gaul, Sharp and Doe 59, looked like the work of a fanatic.”
Links were also investigated in the murder of 17-year old Marina Habe, who reportedly had been abducted outside her West Hollywood residence on New Year’s Day 1969. Habe was a University of Hawaii student home on vacation and daughter of writer and newspaper publisher Hans Habe and actress Eloise Hardt.
"The best lead is the apartment building where Jurvetson was residing.
Originally called the Paramount Hotel during the 1940s, the hotel rented to businesses on the main floor, to include a restaurant called the Rosalin serving up beer and steak, and a Tires and Tubes store.
The famous Western Costume Co., Store was right next door, the most legendary costume provider to motion pictures. Founded in 1912 by a Native America Trader named L.L. Burns and partner Harry Revier, they supplied a film lab, costumes, and supplies. Eventually, the partners sold their Building and it became Paramount Studios."
"The Fifth Estate is helping LAPD by asking anyone who attend the following Canadian high schools to scan the photographs of their yearbooks and contact them.
College Prep International
Montreal High School (F.A.C.E. School)
Herzilah High School
James Lyng High School
Laurier MacDonald High School
Lester B. Pearson High School
Rosemont High School
Montreal West High School (Royal West Academy)
St. George’s School of Montreal
Vincent Massey Collegiate"
Anyone with information is urged to contact LAPD Cold Case Unit, Detectives Luis Rivera and Veronica Conrado at (213) 486-6810. Anyone wishing to remain anonymous should call the LA Regional Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-TIPS (800-222-8477) or go directly to www.lacrimestoppers.org."
Thanks for this also anyone amateur sleuth could find the repository of yearbooks that probably exist in both special collections in the Montreal Public Library and at the Board of Ed. whatever they are called there. They are usually missing some years. I would do this but will not be in Montreal till early Dec. It would be nice to get an update on what years/schools they are missing at some point. Toronto Star April 27th 2016 says Reet "passed through" Toronto on her way to LA - I had been wondering about the chronology they so I will take that to be true for now but with caution. That detective could be right at the end of the day it could be the work of some random "fanatic" serial killer that has nothing to do with the Jeans, with the Mansons, with family political history. There is a very good chance of that but LAPD and in a smaller way on WS we can only talk about what we have. Though maybe there is something in those other cases the mod. just mentioned that will shine light on Reet or Marina or both.
But ok now I am a bit lost. Most of those schools are ENGLISH instruction schools I thought we were probably looking for a French Jean. Rivera does say it could be John. One Jewish school is listed. One teaches in both English and French. There are NO French schools on that list.
Way back (a few days ago) to Jean being First Nations.....beside where they lived near the there was or had been the famous Western Costume Co. mentioned in the mod's article that had been started in the early days of film by and Indian trader (whatever that means) to do realistic authentic costumes for films esp. films with characters who were "Indians" as they were called in those day. They sometimes auction material off and it still exists if I understand it right now owned by Warner Brothers. Possibly an attractive place to be around for a job look-see etc. for the Jeans?
Paul Robert (s?) knew him as a waiter. He would probably have noticed which language was primary for Jean/John I don't understand why this is a mystery.....but it is for me.
Also what years for the yearbooks...we are not interested in 2011 after all there must be some kind of date range?