CA - Mario Woods, 26, shot by LE, San Francisco, 2 Dec 2015

[RoiPD86]

The statistics are out there, easy to find, and they prove that your statement is incorrect. But that doesn't explain why things are so different. And I don't think that the answer will be found just in policing, and I don't think that there are more bad people per capita in either country. So one has to wonder: why are the situations so different?

"I don't think that there are more bad people per capita in either country." Thinking does not always end up in a truth. What if any proof exists that we have about the same amount of "bad" people, or law breakers per capita.

 

[bluesneakers]

The statistics are out there, easy to find, and they prove that your statement is incorrect. But that doesn't explain why things are so different. And I don't think that the answer will be found just in policing, and I don't think that there are more bad people per capita in either country. So one has to wonder: why are the situations so different?

Okay, this is amusing: If you google "27 people shot in Chicago" a questionable (and probably not allowed on WS) site comes up. It lists all the shootings, and when you click on each one instead of getting a story and a source, you land at the front page of the Chicago Sun-Times. And... that's because the article is from July 2014.

This weekend, not that these are great numbers or anything:
1 Dead, 20 Wounded In Weekend Shootings Across Chicago

Although I'm not sure I understand how the shootings in one American city mean American LEOs can't learn something from LE in the United Kingdom. I think they can, and that's why they're there.

JMO etc.

 

[katydid23]

The statistics are out there, easy to find, and they prove that your statement is incorrect. But that doesn't explain why things are so different. And I don't think that the answer will be found just in policing, and I don't think that there are more bad people per capita in either country. So one has to wonder: why are the situations so different?

From what I see, the US has 30x as many gun deaths as in the UK. So I think policing would be very different in each place.

<modsnip>

 

[bluesneakers]

From what I see, the US has 30x as many gun deaths as in the UK. So I think policing would be very different in each place.

<modsnip>

It's been pointed out how different it is, and how much American LE can learn from LE in the UK. Chicago and Los Angeles might have high crime and lots of shootings, but lots of cities don't have the crime and the shootings, and their officers could benefit from learning a few things.

And regardless of how many guns or gun deaths there are in the US it doesn't have anything to do with how many unarmed (or not armed with a gun) Americans are shot and killed by LE.

Mr. Woods had a knife and was surrounded by officers. It didn't have to end up with him dead on the ground. We can do better.

 

[RoiPD86]

It's been pointed out how different it is, and how much American LE can learn from LE in the UK. Chicago and Los Angeles might have high crime and lots of shootings, but lots of cities don't have the crime and the shootings, and their officers could benefit from learning a few things.

And regardless of how many guns or gun deaths there are in the US it doesn't have anything to do with how many unarmed (or not armed with a gun) Americans are shot and killed by LE.

Mr. Woods had a knife and was surrounded by officers. It didn't have to end up with him dead on the ground. We can do better.

We can do better. But not in the way you mean. When will this Nation grow up and realize that the death of armed adults who do not comply is on them, square on their shoulders. It is not the fault of Law Enforcement that these people choose to neglect their safety and morality. It is not the fault of Law Enforcement that people of this nature are on the streets, high on drugs, with rap sheets 10 pages in length. This fault lies on a corrupt and broken legal system compounded by a lack of social services. People do not wisely understand the implications of what they deem a better system where felons are more coddled than they already are. To believe that it is morally right and wiser to save these people every time they commit a heinous crime means you have not thought this through very well. The burden you seek is not tolerable.

 

[kimlynn]

We can do better. But not in the way you mean. When will this Nation grow up and realize that the death of armed adults who do not comply is on them, square on their shoulders. It is not the fault of Law Enforcement that these people choose to neglect their safety and morality. It is not the fault of Law Enforcement that people of this nature are on the streets, high on drugs, with rap sheets 10 pages in length. This fault lies on a corrupt and broken legal system compounded by a lack of social services. People do not wisely understand the implications of what they deem a better system where felons are more coddled than they already are. To believe that it is morally right and wiser to save these people every time they commit a heinous crime means you have not thought this through very well. The burden you seek is not tolerable.

I may be reading this wrong. Are you suggesting that since the legal system is broken and some aren't worth saving (burden) that we should do away with the courts and let LE decide who is worthwhile?
Also even if no threat toward LE it is okay to shoot to kill if person won't comply?
IMO

 

[katydid23]

I may be reading this wrong. Are you suggesting that since the legal system is broken and some aren't worth saving (burden) that we should do away with the courts and let LE decide who is worthwhile?
Also even if no threat toward LE it is okay to shoot to kill if person won't comply?
IMO

I don't think that is what he is saying.

I think it is more along the lines of, if a violent ex-con gang member stabs someone, then runs through the streets with a bloody knife, refuses to put the knife down, and is shot when he tries to walk away with the knife in his hand, then that is on HIM< and not the fault of the police.

 

[kimlynn]

I don't think that is what he is saying.

I think it is more along the lines of, if a violent ex-con gang member stabs someone, then runs through the streets with a bloody knife, refuses to put the knife down, and is shot when he tries to walk away with the knife in his hand, then that is on HIM< and not the fault of the police.

There was some other mentions in the post as well so I will wait for a response from the OP,but thanks katy.

 

[RoiPD86]

To state that I meant we should do away with the courts and let the police decide who is worthwhile is false, if I believed so I would have stated this. The legal system is currently broken and the status quo will remain given the way the system is cemented in. I have been to court on countless cases where this is extremely evident. If we were to clean up the system through a common sense approach then we would have less of what you abhor. There is no reason for a citizen to be convicted of murder and then be back on the streets in 3 years or less. This happens and I know because I have arrested said citizens. This is asinine and ridiculous.

 

[bluesneakers]

I may be reading this wrong. Are you suggesting that since the legal system is broken and some aren't worth saving (burden) that we should do away with the courts and let LE decide who is worthwhile?
Also even if no threat toward LE it is okay to shoot to kill if person won't comply?
IMO

As to your last question - I think yes, this is okay and what we should expect from law enforcement. Lots of people believe this is how it should be. The victim asked for it, and probably deserved it, even if unarmed, or 12 years old, or confused and frightened, which I believe is what happened to Mr. Woods in this case.

 

[kimlynn]

To state that I meant we should do away with the courts and let the police decide who is worthwhile is false, if I believed so I would have stated this. The legal system is currently broken and the status quo will remain given the way the system is cemented in. I have been to court on countless cases where this is extremely evident. If we were to clean up the system through a common sense approach then we would have less of what you abhor. There is no reason for a citizen to be convicted of murder and then be back on the streets in 3 years or less. This happens and I know because I have arrested said citizens. This is asinine and ridiculous.

Thank you for responding and the clarification. Sometimes people dance around their meaning and you have to read between the lines. I'm glad I was wrong.
I do agree that the system is broken. It is a revolving door even with good evidence and witnesses.
Maybe this is due to jails being so full. I'm not sure but many people do get chances to make their lives better.

IMO

ETA a poster(Cubby) had a very good response in another thread about why some seem to be unable to cope. I think that poster had a very good understanding of the situations some find themselves in.

 

[bluesneakers]

We can do better. But not in the way you mean. When will this Nation grow up and realize that the death of armed adults who do not comply is on them, square on their shoulders. It is not the fault of Law Enforcement that these people choose to neglect their safety and morality. It is not the fault of Law Enforcement that people of this nature are on the streets, high on drugs, with rap sheets 10 pages in length. This fault lies on a corrupt and broken legal system compounded by a lack of social services. People do not wisely understand the implications of what they deem a better system where felons are more coddled than they already are. To believe that it is morally right and wiser to save these people every time they commit a heinous crime means you have not thought this through very well. The burden you seek is not tolerable.

How long was Mr. Woods' rap sheet? Was he high on drugs? Which gang was he a member of? Why were the police so frightened by a man armed only with a knife when there were five or six of them and they had him cornered? Do we (and did the officers) know for a fact he was the person who stabbed the other man? Did he have a mental illness?

By corrupt legal system are you referring to how police officers so often get away with murdering citizens who are armed with knives, toy guns, or nothing at all? Because I agree - the system that allows them to get away with this is corrupt.

 

[kimlynn]

As to your last question - I think yes, this is okay and what we should expect from law enforcement. Lots of people believe this is how it should be. The victim asked for it, and probably deserved it, even if unarmed, or 12 years old, or confused and frightened, which I believe is what happened to Mr. Woods in this case.

Something has to give in the way LE deals with people.
Just read another one (guy shot 33 times while crawling away) and couldn't bring myself to watch a video ...if there was one.

 

[katydid23]

Something has to give in the way LE deals with people.
Just read another one (guy shot 33 times while crawling away) and couldn't bring myself to watch a video ...if there was one.

I think you need to add in the necessary details. It just happened in LA. The guy was walking around the city with a gun, pointing it at people, shooting indiscriminately. There were a dozen 911 calls from people asking for help. The cops arrived and the guy ignored commands to drop his gun. He turned towards the cop with his gun aiming at them...[ there is video]....he was shot and he fell to the ground and began crawling away, WITH GUN STILL IN HAND AND POINTING, there are pictures of that, which were shown on the news, of him still pointing the weapon....so cops continued to fire.

Hey guess what, a grown man cannot walk down the street shooting a gun, randomly pointing it at others, and cannot refuse to drop it when asked to do so.....

It is getting so ridiculous what people are defending. Mario stabbed someone and was running away with a bloody knife. This guy was shooting his gun randomly around people in the street, and pointed it at the cops, and people are marching and protesting his death. What do they want cops to do when someone points a gun at them?

http://news.yahoo.com/los-angeles-sheriffs-deputies-fatally-shoot-armed-man-085235952.html

LOS ANGELES (AP) &#8212; A black man who was fatally shot by Los Angeles County Sheriff's deputies kept holding a gun as he lay dying on the ground, authorities said Sunday in response to questions about why they continued to fire on the man after he fell to the pavement.


A close-up from security footage showed 28-year-old Nicholas Robertson stretched out on the ground with a gun in his hand. He died at the scene Saturday morning in the south Los Angeles suburb of Lynwood.


Two deputies fired 33 bullets at the man after he refused to drop the gun and walked across a busy street to a filling station where a family was pumping gas, homicide Capt. Steven Katz said.

"When he collapsed, his arms were underneath him, and the gun was still in his hand. There was never a time when the weapon was not in his possession," Katz said.

 

[i.b.nora]

What We Know So Far About the SFPD Officers Who Shot and Killed Mario Woods

SFWeekly
By Julia Carrie Wong on Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 10:51 AM

"On Friday evening, the San Francisco Police Department released the names of the five officers who discharged their weapons at Mario Woods on Dec. 2, killing him and setting off protests and calls to reform police tactics. They are: Winson Seto, Antonio Santos, Charles August, Nicholas Cuevas, and Scott Phillips.

Here's what we know so far about these five police officers:

Charles August

Officer Charles August appears to be the longest serving officer of the five, from the information we've gleaned so far. He is mentioned in a newsletter as working out of Central Station in October 2008. In September, 2011, he was awarded a Bronze Medal of Valor "for courageous service."

In June 2014, August was named in a civil rights lawsuit that stemmed from a July 2013 incident at the corner of Keith and Thomas Streets in the Bayview. Plaintiff David Lloyd alleged that he was leaving a grocery store and attempting to retrieve his bicycle when a group of police officers in the middle of searching another man prevented him from accessing his bike.

Per the complaint (3:14-cv-03542):​

Be sure to read the complaint included in the article. Its a little disturbing. The article also has the other officers with much less information, thus far.

 

[bluesneakers]

What We Know So Far About the SFPD Officers Who Shot and Killed Mario Woods

SFWeekly
By Julia Carrie Wong on Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 10:51 AM

"On Friday evening, the San Francisco Police Department released the names of the five officers who discharged their weapons at Mario Woods on Dec. 2, killing him and setting off protests and calls to reform police tactics. They are: Winson Seto, Antonio Santos, Charles August, Nicholas Cuevas, and Scott Phillips.

Here's what we know so far about these five police officers:

Charles August

Officer Charles August appears to be the longest serving officer of the five, from the information we've gleaned so far. He is mentioned in a newsletter as working out of Central Station in October 2008. In September, 2011, he was awarded a Bronze Medal of Valor "for courageous service."

In June 2014, August was named in a civil rights lawsuit that stemmed from a July 2013 incident at the corner of Keith and Thomas Streets in the Bayview. Plaintiff David Lloyd alleged that he was leaving a grocery store and attempting to retrieve his bicycle when a group of police officers in the middle of searching another man prevented him from accessing his bike.

Per the complaint (3:14-cv-03542):​

Be sure to read the complaint included in the article. Its a little disturbing. The article also has the other officers with much less information, thus far.

Disturbing and frightening, and makes me wonder how many others have been bullied and harassed like this but never reported it?

Officer August and the other defendants &#8212; who are being represented by the San Francisco City Attorney &#8212; have denied the allegations. The case is still pending in federal court.

 

[magnolia]

What We Know So Far About the SFPD Officers Who Shot and Killed Mario Woods

SFWeekly
By Julia Carrie Wong on Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 10:51 AM

"On Friday evening, the San Francisco Police Department released the names of the five officers who discharged their weapons at Mario Woods on Dec. 2, killing him and setting off protests and calls to reform police tactics. They are: Winson Seto, Antonio Santos, Charles August, Nicholas Cuevas, and Scott Phillips.

Here's what we know so far about these five police officers:

Charles August

Officer Charles August appears to be the longest serving officer of the five, from the information we've gleaned so far. He is mentioned in a newsletter as working out of Central Station in October 2008. In September, 2011, he was awarded a Bronze Medal of Valor "for courageous service."

In June 2014, August was named in a civil rights lawsuit that stemmed from a July 2013 incident at the corner of Keith and Thomas Streets in the Bayview. Plaintiff David Lloyd alleged that he was leaving a grocery store and attempting to retrieve his bicycle when a group of police officers in the middle of searching another man prevented him from accessing his bike.

Per the complaint (3:14-cv-03542):​

Be sure to read the complaint included in the article. Its a little disturbing. The article also has the other officers with much less information, thus far.

Are you aware that most LE officers who have been on the force for any length of time have complaints on their record. People report officers over any little petty thing. One cannot really judge an LE officer by complaints on his/her record. Complaints don't change the facts of this case.

 

[katydid23]

What We Know So Far About the SFPD Officers Who Shot and Killed Mario Woods


Be sure to read the complaint included in the article. Its a little disturbing. The article also has the other officers with much less information, thus far.

So all they had was this guys word that this is what happened. According to him he was doing nothing wrong, and four cops rolled up on him and began beating him, for no reason.
Maybe the guy was lying?

 

[i.b.nora]

Are you aware that most LE officers who have been on the force for any length of time have complaints on their record. People report officers over any little petty thing. One cannot really judge an LE officer by complaints on his/her record. Complaints don't change the facts of this case.

Yes, I am very aware that most police who have been on the force for any length of time, will have complaints against them. However, in the case of Charles August it is a civil rights lawsuit that has been filed against him and others. And, the description of the incident gives me pause. Especially when it says at the end that "all criminal charges against Mr. Lloyd were later dismissed by the District Attorney's office." And, the case is still pending in Federal Court.

 

[magnolia]

Yes, I am very aware that most police who have been on the force for any length of time, will have complaints against them. However, in the case of Charles August it is a civil rights lawsuit that has been filed against him and others. And, the description of the incident gives me pause. Especially when it says at the end that "all criminal charges against Mr. Lloyd were later dismissed by the District Attorney's office." And, the case is still pending in Federal Court.

Still does not change the facts of the case.