CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by Wagtales10, Jun 16, 2019.

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  1. Jeremy Bentham

    Jeremy Bentham Active Member

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    This is just unreal but not really unexpected.

    If Ramirez thought this was an active shooter situation, shouldn't he be shooting at an armed perpetrator instead of three unarmed people? In what universe are active shooters unarmed? A shooter would most likely be armed, no? What am I missing here?
     
  2. PaperDoll

    PaperDoll When I'm Silent, I make the most sense

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    This incident happened fast, and from what little I can see on the video, and if I'm seeing it correctly, Sanchez was struck from behind while holding his son. He was attacked without any reason. I'm sure he had no idea why, or who attacked him but he also knows he had his 1 1/2 year old son with him. I can't say I blame him for being distraught and wanting to protect his family from this attacker. However, firing off 10 rounds is a bit much. I have a feeling, though I'm not sure because I wasn't there, that he fired 1st before the parents were able to tell him about their son being mentally ill. The parents knew Kenneth wasn't on his meds and had mental issues, but Sanchez didn't. So I'm now confused as to where a person draws the line on mentally ill people causing harm to another and how does one protect themselves from that.... It's not ok for anyone to be attacked especially while holding a young child. What would any of us do had that happened to us?
     
  3. Baciagalupo

    Baciagalupo Active Member

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    Assess the situation and not empty your gun????
     
  4. PaperDoll

    PaperDoll When I'm Silent, I make the most sense

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    When does a person really have time to assess the situation when attacked especially when there are other people around. I personally would be in a defensive mode because it's unusual for a person to be minding their own business then suddenly get attacked, and it looked like he was attacked, tossed to the ground, not simply bumped into. It looked deliberate to me. Again, I'm not seeing the whole video but only parts of it so I could be off base here.
     
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  5. SoCalDavidS

    SoCalDavidS Well-Known Member

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    The lawyer said he was obviously very disappointed, but not at all surprised by the decision. He knows that cops, on duty or off, are Never held accountable for these incidents. I agree.

    The parents are holding a press conference today, I think it's 2 PM PST. Even though they have been denied justice, I hope they realize that MANY people feel extreme compassion towards them, and share in their anger at the denial.
     
  6. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    You'd be in defensive mode so it's permissible to start shooting unarmed people?
     
  7. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    Kenneth French was mentally ill. He had schizophrenia. Schizophrenia could cause hallucinations, delusions, etc. So he could have knocked him down for no reason that would make sense to anyone else other than to Mr. French himself. That doesn't mean the cop should then be allowed to shoot at 3 unarmed people.
     
  8. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    Well, exactly. Are they going to keep him on the job?
     
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  9. SoCalDavidS

    SoCalDavidS Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me for being cynical. Oh hell....don't forgive me......there is no basis for firing him. He apparently did NOTHING wrong.

    It's more likely they'll give him a promotion and raise. That's the way things work.

    I can appreciate the parents saying that they have completely lost faith in this country's justice system. That nobody is above the law. I'm glad they now understand what this country is really all about.
     
  10. TristanP

    TristanP Well-Known Member

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    Wow, so 4 seconds was long enough for him to be knocked unconscious, regain consciousness, assess the situation, make an informed decision to fire upon an unarmed man, pull his weapon, and kill someone?

    Gosh, this guy should be getting a medal for that exceptional police work!
     
  11. BayouBelle_LA

    BayouBelle_LA Well-Known Member

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    Tell that to the citizens of California because they were on the grand jury.
     
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  12. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    Hope they feel good about this cop being armed and on the job. But frankly, considering "grand jury would indict a ham sandwich" it usually does what DA wants it to do. This DA also could have gone ahead with charges without grand jury and decided not to.
     
  13. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    For all we know he will.
     
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  14. Jeremy Bentham

    Jeremy Bentham Active Member

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    ++ Exactly what jjenny said.
    Grand juries are provided just one version of the event. If the DA wants to selectively show that the perp (Sanchez) experienced extreme distress on being knocked down and had no choice but to shoot three unarmed people, so be it. Who cares that he apparently imagined that he was in an active shooter situation.

    Sadly, this reinforces my belief that we have different standards for different people. Are police officers found guilty of using deadly force? Sure they are but cases like Peter Liang and Noor Mohammed say that if you are not a male/white police perp, most likely you will be cleared. Not that Amber Guyger is without blame but she is certainly toast for not being in the right demographic.

    Finally - Please never forget Daniel Shaver
     
  15. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    One of LAPD'S finest. Of course.
     
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  16. PaperDoll

    PaperDoll When I'm Silent, I make the most sense

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    Is it permissible to be attacked while holding your child?
     
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  17. Reasonable & Just

    Reasonable & Just United We Stand

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    Is it permissible to be attacked while you are standing in front of your adult disabled child, unarmed, begging the shooter not to shoot?

    None of this is okay. But an itchy trigger finger makes things 1000 times worse. And that itchy finger should not be walking the streets with badge and gun any more.
     
  18. MsFacetious

    MsFacetious What a Kerfuffle...

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    I have been knocked down in public while carrying my child. It can happen, when there are a lot of people. I was immediately afraid I was being attacked but I still didn't come up swinging. I backed away to evaluated the situation.

    If Sanchez had been hit repeatedly this would be a different story. However, Kenneth could have literally tripped and fell into him, or had a seizure and fell into him and that could be why we are discussing this.

    I don't carry a gun because I have anxiety. I know that there is a chance I might misread a situation or overreact. If that happens I would prefer to only be facing assault and not murder charges. (I don't have a badge, so I'd be charged.)


    This is exactly what is so unbelievably absurd.
    If he had such a serious head injury, 4 seconds wouldn't have been long enough for him to react.


    It pains me the wake up call I've been faced with since I started doing legal work. I'm starting to think I'm in the wrong field, it might be too depressing for me. Our system is really just so unbelievably screwed up.
     
  19. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    As described in the link below, family are obviously outraged at the lack of charges. Also, there were 10 shots fired, 4 missed the family and presumably could have hit any other innocent bystander.

    "Dale K. Galipo, a civil lawyer for the family, said he plans to file a federal civil rights suit against the officer and the Los Angeles Police Department on behalf of the family to try to bring some accountability."
    Parents wounded by LAPD officer in Costco shooting are outraged by lack of charges
     
  20. Cryptic

    Cryptic Well-Known Member

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    Well said, short and to the point. This is the core of the matter. The attack only allowed for the potential to use deadly force if the situation deteriorated. Sanchez, as you stated, was not repeatedly struck to the extent that he could not stabilize the situation.

    I agree, sometimes the system fails- and it has here. Riverside California has western rural roots more reminiscent of Arizona or Arizona than SOCAL. But the area has also heavily urbanized in the last generation. Today, one would think Riverside to be far more SOCAL than Arizona. Then again, maybe western roots go very deep.

    In short, I could understand the Grand Jury in say, small town Arizona, Nevada, Idaho etc where local sentiment is far more tolerant of “whatever it takes” type actions regarding self-defense situations. That same decision, however, is more than just surprising in Riverside, CA.

    Maybe there is hope, the family is appealing to the Attorney General of California. A decision not to indict is not a verdict. Charges can still be brought. Likewise, Sanchez could be brought before another Grand Jury to gauge local sentiment again.
    No. That fact, however, does not automatically make deadly force warranted. It does, however, create a potential situation where deadly force could be justified.

    "A bullet went through Paola French’s back and exited her stomach."

    In this case, the man was attacked while holding a child. This creates the potential for deadly force. He then returned fire on not just the attacker, but the entire family (two elderly people). One of whom was shot in the back. My guess is that she was not a threat and unlikely to become one.

    It would be different if say, the other two individuals had weapons (even improvised ones) or were encouraging / directing the attack and Sanchez felt the attacker was going to heed the encouragement and resume attacking. This, however, is not the case.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
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