CA CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #2

Discussion in 'Missing Persons Discussion' started by PommyMommy, Dec 21, 2020.

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  1. Chocoholic

    Chocoholic Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much for the hard work you put in for all of the missing! You are truly a blessing in this thread and many others.
     


  2. Lusitana

    Lusitana Well-Known Member

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    I honestly can’t phantom taking a child for money... much less a child who has most likely been traumatized and needs lots of extra help.

    Kids are A LOT of work. Healthy, non-traumatized kids are A LOT of work. You don’t get pregnant and have kids for any money, if anything you get way less money since a good chunk of it goes to the child’s needs.

    I do know that some foster/adoptive parents probably see the financial help they might get in some states like “easy money”. It’s not though. It’s not their money either, it’s for the child. And it’s obviously not easy in any way. Loving a child IS easy, caring for a child is often hard. The happy times are totally worth it though. If you treat a child with love, care AND respect, that child will love you forever, no questions asked. That’s why it makes me so sad when I find these cases.
     
  3. naomiuk

    naomiuk Active Member

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    I don’t know what to think about the lack of LE searches, I would like to think that they have a good idea what happened to the boys.

    But if they do where are they?
     
  4. ForensicToxicologist

    ForensicToxicologist “People lie. Evidence doesn’t.”

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    Hi there! I’m a forensics student (so close to graduating) so I’ll do my best to help explain! First off, let me say that I don’t have any training on chalk itself, but I do believe it’d be very difficult although not impossible to lift prints. As far as prints in general go, yes, we often use powders BUT we have MANY techniques. We use ninhydrin on porous papers and cardboards. We also use a cyanoacrylate (super glue) fuming chamber for difficult to dust items. There are also sprays used in conjunction with UV lights (couldn’t do with chalk because getting it wet would disintegrate it). One option that I think would be most promising (still hard) would be mikrosil. Its basically a rubber putty that you spread on the surface, it dries, and you peel it off resulting in a rubberized cast of the impression. It’s often done for tool marks, but I have used it on occasion for prints. I would have to test chalks to see if any would work, but there are many ways we get prints besides powders. Also, contrary to popular belief, people don’t always leave fingerprints behind. Prints come from your oils and sweat, or you touching something (ex paint or blood) and transferring that medium to a surface. Some people don’t release much oil/sweat. Especially in cold weather. Theoretically the boys could’ve touched things and not left prints, although it’s unlikely. Now if they had something on their hands and touched the chalk (something sticky maybe) they could’ve transferred prints to the chalk that might be able to be examined. Also, if they touched the chalk and left clear prints on other items such as the concrete or door you could try to lift those directly because, hey it’s already a powdered print!
    Anyway, that’s been my experience so hope this helps!
     
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  5. Hexe

    Hexe Well-Known Member

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    Big yes on not releasing big amounts of sweat/oil. But a kid in their age that has immaculately clean hands, without anything wet/greasy/sticky on them would be an extremely rare phenomenon. Where is a toddler, there are their fingerprints.
     
  6. imstilla.grandma

    imstilla.grandma Believer of Miracles

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    My grandchildren’s other set of grandparents (both now passed) definitely often took in foster children to supplement their income before complaints come in. They raised three kids who all ended up in Federal prisons so no wonder they were approved after their church wrote a recommendation letter for them. I’m being facetious but I’m sure there are others out there who do the same. Hotlines are available in each state for reporting. Google is our friend.wink
     
  7. Emb72

    Emb72 Well-Known Member

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    In Washington state if you adopt through the state and the child is disabled, which our daughter highly is, you cannot receive SSDI and adoption support. You pick one or the other. They call it "double dipping"... and although they have no way of finding out if the child has either one and double dipping is very easily accessible, i have morals and would never do that. Im sure it is done all the time. The system is highly flawed.
     
  8. dillysmom11

    dillysmom11 Well-Known Member

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    I’m in WA state and all of our adoptions (except one) were here. I have heard of many people who get both and never heard it was illegal. I know they get partials from SSI.
     
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  9. Megnut

    Megnut Well-Known Member

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    Something to consider, if the boys have been missing longer than reported (and LE digging in a backyard seems to imply that's the case), excuses may have been made over time to a variety of people, for why the boys weren't available. Always napping, off with a different family member, outside playing... so that, when they were reported missing, the hinky meter would go straight to the top for people who may have already had worry.

    JMO
     
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  10. Ontario Mom

    Ontario Mom stay safe ♥ be kind

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    Good observation.
    I can only imagine family members must have had a number of conversations about various things, once the boys were reported missing.
     
  11. Emb72

    Emb72 Well-Known Member

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    We were told point blank we could not get both when going through the adoption process. We had to pick one or the other. But like I said, SSDI office has no way of knowing about the adoption support, and the state has no way of knowing if the child receives SSDI. They aren't linked to one another. So basically they just go by word.
     
  12. dillysmom11

    dillysmom11 Well-Known Member

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    It’s been several years since our last adoption was final, maybe things have changed. Subsidy was hardly anything, perhaps since it’s gone way up they’ve changed SSI access. MOO

    We never applied for anything extra because I was of the mindset “these are MY children and we will provide!”. Many years later, understanding the havoc developmental trauma has on children placed through the FC system... I’d take whatever they’d give to help pay all the therapy and medical bills. MOO

    ETA: In the hundreds of adoptive parents I have met and worked with over the years, never have a met a family that adopted for money. Some who weren’t equipped to handle trauma, heck yeah, but most went in hoping to add to their family and loved their children very much.
     
  13. susiQ

    susiQ Well-Known Member

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    Having a good idea of what happened is one thing, proving who is responsible beyond a reasonable doubt is another. They don’t have bodies. It takes a LOT of time to put together a strong circumstantial case. They need to determine who, other than the parents (as they may be lying), saw the boys last. Do they show up on any video surveillance in CC? The children needed to be interviewed, extended family needs to be interviewed, cell phones to examine forensically, vehicle GPS and all the items that were removed from the home.

    Depending on how long the boys have actually been missing, makes it all that much harder to figure out what was done with them and where they are. If these boys never made it to CC, I fear they may never be found and our best hope for justice will depend on one of the perps breaking ranks when the pressure gets too great or self preservation kicks in.

    JMHO
    Ed:sp
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  14. Emb72

    Emb72 Well-Known Member

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    Our daughter was adopted 12 years ago. And trust me when I say that we did NOT do it for the money. In fact we took a 4,000 dollar a month hit because I chose to stay home. She is our only kiddo and I wanted to be the one to get her to her appointments, surgeries, illness etc etc etc.... She is non-mobile, non-verbal, seizures and a slew of other things. It is not easy by all means but she rules and is spoiled rotten
     
  15. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    What happens if there is no evidence? The kids are gone. End of story? No charges?
     
  16. charminglane

    charminglane Helcat!

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    I couldn't sleep last night and I had a thought:

    Mom was inside wrapping gifts. That's all we have heard her do, right?

    Everything regarding physically searching is done by the father. We don't hear of anyone (Mom) screaming their names, she's not frantically knocking on doors while Dad drives around looking for the boys. Did she got out with a flashlight? Did she just stay in the house and wait? It seems Dad came back from the drive and called 911. He is the one controlling the story. Where is Mom in it?

    Maybe I've missed something, although I have been here since the beginning.

    Another thing I was wondering about is if the neighbors have ever noticed that the blinds are closed at all times and if there is no furniture outside-like it looks like no one lives there if it weren't for the van in the driveway.
    Always inside means you can't tell how many are in there or who.
     
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  17. Emb72

    Emb72 Well-Known Member

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    I shutter to think....
     
  18. nyvictoria

    nyvictoria Well-Known Member

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    Good point! Mom wasn’t very vocal when they did that media interview. He did most of the talking. IIRC she thanked the community for searching.
     
  19. cuffem

    cuffem Well-Known Member

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    Good point about what mom was doing. As to the info given out during interview, the less they say, the less they get tied into a timeline.
     
  20. BoyThatsWeird

    BoyThatsWeird Well-Known Member

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    Why hasn’t MSM reported on the neighbors security footage of the day they went missing, and especially the day they went to Bakersfield. Genuinely curious, not just trying to make a point. It changes the whole scope of the case IMO. Is it because it’s too grainy to definitively say anything? Just seems crazy to me.
     
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