CA - Unidentified & possible missing victims of Randy Kraft, 1971-1983

[ManTheSam]

Also, could Hawth stand for Hawthorne Boulevard?

 

[carbuff]

I don’t know if someone already said this, and it’s a little off topic but I thought maybe England was 20 year old Dikran Knadjian. He vanished July 24 1972 from Yosemite National Park, assumed injured in wilderness. He had a British accent, and was only vacationing in the US while studying at Cambridge in England. I’m not very familiar with Kraft so I may be completely off.

That sounds like a possibility. Hmmm.

 

[odiliapadilla]

I've been researching Randy Kraft and attempting to decipher his score card recently, and have found a few possible victims.

The first found was the Long Beach John Doe (1978). He was a young man found dead in Long Beach, California in 1978. He was found strangled, which was Randy Kraft's signature way of killing his victims. He was a young, white male in between the ages of 15 and 19. Fitting Randy Kraft's victims to a T. He had long brown hair and hazel eyes. He was only blocks away from Ripple's, the bar that Kraft often hunted at. Some sources say he was found in a "road way" and others state he was found in a parking lot. This could mean he could be the victim on the score card listed as "Parking Lot".

The second John Doe is the Bell County John Doe of 1979. His official cause of death has never been released but the post mortem photos show bruising to the face and the neck. It is also believed that he could have drowned, another way that Kraft's victims have died. Not much is revealed about this John Doe but it is believed that he may have been European, meaning he potentially could be "England". I doubt he is the "Portland Hawaii" even if he was found in a Hawaiian shirt.

The third John Doe is the Sierra Madre John Doe. Next to none is known about him because he was found in a skeletal state. He was found to be wearing a "44" jersey. It is believed he was either white or Asian. Maybe a mixture of both. If he was Asian, he could be "Hari Kari"- a reference to the ritual disembowelment suicide of Japanese samurai.

The next few have only namus entries.

A white male found on 04/18/84 behind 800 Ocean Blvd. Only blocks from Ripple's. Body condition was a partial skeleton.

A white male found on 10/10/83 on the Los Angeles St off ramp of the Hollywood freeway. He died of traumatic injuries and was believed to be 18-39 yrs old.

A while male who was found on 11/09/1982 on a "sidewalk" in Los Angeles. He was believed to be in between 18 and 28 yrs old.

A white male found on 02/08/1982 in between Terminal Island and San Pedro. His decomposed state led to a cause of death being unknown. In between 25 and 35 yrs old.

A white male found on 12/28/1981 behind 5623 Hollywood Blvd in Los Angeles. He was in between 18-22 yrs old and no cause of death has been revealed.

A white male found on 05/30/1980 in the San Francisco Bay. The body was noted to have track marks on it, implying that he may have been an IV drug user. This also means he could have been the "User" listed on Kraft's scorecard. (He referred to marijuana as "dope".) This young man was in between 20 and 40 years old.

A white male found on 11/30/1979 in a reservoir in Taft, California. He was in between the ages of 15 and 27. Though his remains were skeletal, he was clothed in a full outfit except underwear, shoes, and socks.

A white male found on 06/19/1979 on Ocean Beach, opposite of the 1740 Great Highway. He was noted to have a few tattoos but they were hard to distinguish because of decomposition. He was in between 18 and 30 years old.

I think it is important to keep in mind that the police weren't particularly looking into deaths of gay men in the 1970s and 1980s. Many of Kraft's victims did appear to die of a drug overdose, or accident, or alcohol intoxication. I wouldn't doubt police to just accept another gay kid dying outside a bar if there wasn't any outward trauma. Maybe even if there was.

 

[R. Towle]

In regards to aforemention victim KEITH ANTONY JACKSON who was last heard from in Los Angeles Cal, USA sept 1979
He may have been hitchhiking or just in a Bar and accepted a lift from the notorious serial killer , RANDY KRAFT .. the name ''ENGLAND '' is on his so called ''scorecard'' that was a proven list of his victims
Moreover, I was hitch-hiking exactly a year later in LA and actually ran into that creep, Kraft ... I too was on vacation from the UK , but I always thought that the ''England '' on his scorecard was in reference to me , a'' close miss ''.. I was living temporarily in L A during the summer of 1980 , but out of a sense of adventure and wanderlust I decided in my youthful innocence that I would H H around the western US and Canada , but I had enough sense to recognise that LA was ''serial killer central'' and therefore caught a bus to Nevada where my adventure began ; I travelled about 4000 in six weeks up to Canada and down to Houston, Texas before making my way back to LA in mid-late sept, but as fate would have it I caught a long ride from a Navy guy in Arizon who dropped me of less than 20 miles from my apartment in Torrance during rush hour traffic ; he left the freeway that was going into Torrance and dropped me off at the base of the off ramp, at the same time telling me that I should get back on the freeway and it would take me to my destination ; however, as I was getting my backpack out of his vehicle I heard a car horn hooting and saw that a brown car had stopped illegally on the zebra lines back up on the Freeway and the driver was motioning me to run back up and get in ; not quite believing my good luck I instantly ran up there even though other drivers were hooting their horns cos he was illegally parked .. as I got into the new brown car the driver a well dressed fellow in his 30s greeted me like an old friend ; infact I thought he must have been a ''holy roller'' cos he was euphoric ; he asked me where I was from etc and then offered me a beer but I declined as by that time I had recognised that he was an obvious *advertiser censored* ; he then asked me if I wanted to go to a Bar , but I naturally declined by pointing out that I was only 19 .. he persisted and asked me if I wanted to go to a party at his house in Long Beach , but I politely declined and as my apartment In in Torrance was coming up just asked him to let me out at the correct location .. when he did stop I couldn't help but notice that his whole demeanor had changed from euphoria to like an angry cat .. when I got back into the apartment I said to the other folks living there that ''I had just finished an epic odyssey around America and yet the last person to drop me off was an obvious *advertiser censored* , and so we just all laughed , but little did I know that I had just escaped certain death , even though it was many years later when watching a crime Doc that I instantly recognised the creep, Randy Kraft ; but what still surprised me is that he could claim so many victims when it was obvious to me within a few minutes of getting into his car that he was a *advertiser censored* (shrug) it's simply a mystery to me ; he was charming and charismatic , but how could any young man fail to recognise his intentions ?
It's possible that JACKSON ran into Kraft , but America and especially California, is such a dangerous place for a young traveller so it's possible that he was murdered by someone else .. who knows ? but the creep I ran into was both confident and reckless and apparently unable to control his lustful emotions as he was taking a huge risk , stopping illegally, on the freeway during rush hour traffic and having other drivers point and gesture at him , but apparently that didn't spook him one bit as he had been getting away with it for so long he assumed no one would remember him or his car number plate .. he was correct in his assumptions

I apologise if this sounds rude but could you please refrain from using such a derogatory and disrespectful term, *advertiser censored*?! This is not the place for that. These young men we're just that, young men, innocent and victims of a disgusting monster. A monster because of his mind not his sexual orientation.

 

[Noellecwhite]

Anyone think maybe “12. LB MARINA” could be Vincent Sclafani?

CA - CA - Vincent Sclafani, 19, Long Beach, 6 Dec 1978

He was last seen at the Long Beach Harbor and it says he was possibly in a Navy uniform and was 19 at the time. ‍

 

[Otterly]

Anyone think maybe “12. LB MARINA” could be Vincent Sclafani?

CA - CA - Vincent Sclafani, 19, Long Beach, 6 Dec 1978

He was last seen at the Long Beach Harbor and it says he was possibly in a Navy uniform and was 19 at the time. ‍

This quote from California's missing persons database implies Vincent went overboard from presumably a Navy ship: "Vincent was last seen on December 6, 1978 off the coast of Long Beach".

I also found this old charley project blog post comment (fourth from the top) from 2015: "Another source has this listed “Details of Disappearance
Vincent Sclafani was last seen aboard navy vessel USS David R Ray (DD 971) off the coast of California on December 6, 1978 at 16.55 hours.”"

Unfortunately the old NAMPN link the commenter linked doesn't work anymore.
Vincent Edward Sclafani Jr.
I am confused

 

[CCJD]

This quote from California's missing persons database implies Vincent went overboard from presumably a Navy ship: "Vincent was last seen on December 6, 1978 off the coast of Long Beach".

I also found this old charley project blog post comment (fourth from the top) from 2015: "Another source has this listed “Details of Disappearance
Vincent Sclafani was last seen aboard navy vessel USS David R Ray (DD 971) off the coast of California on December 6, 1978 at 16.55 hours.”"

Unfortunately the old NAMPN link the commenter linked doesn't work anymore.

NAMPN link on the Wayback Machine
Wayback Machine

 

[Ontheriver]

I've been researching Randy Kraft and attempting to decipher his score card recently, and have found a few possible victims.

The first found was the Long Beach John Doe (1978). He was a young man found dead in Long Beach, California in 1978. He was found strangled, which was Randy Kraft's signature way of killing his victims. He was a young, white male in between the ages of 15 and 19. Fitting Randy Kraft's victims to a T. He had long brown hair and hazel eyes. He was only blocks away from Ripple's, the bar that Kraft often hunted at. Some sources say he was found in a "road way" and others state he was found in a parking lot. This could mean he could be the victim on the score card listed as "Parking Lot".

The second John Doe is the Bell County John Doe of 1979. His official cause of death has never been released but the post mortem photos show bruising to the face and the neck. It is also believed that he could have drowned, another way that Kraft's victims have died. Not much is revealed about this John Doe but it is believed that he may have been European, meaning he potentially could be "England". I doubt he is the "Portland Hawaii" even if he was found in a Hawaiian shirt.

The third John Doe is the Sierra Madre John Doe. Next to none is known about him because he was found in a skeletal state. He was found to be wearing a "44" jersey. It is believed he was either white or Asian. Maybe a mixture of both. If he was Asian, he could be "Hari Kari"- a reference to the ritual disembowelment suicide of Japanese samurai.

The next few have only namus entries.

A white male found on 04/18/84 behind 800 Ocean Blvd. Only blocks from Ripple's. Body condition was a partial skeleton.

A white male found on 10/10/83 on the Los Angeles St off ramp of the Hollywood freeway. He died of traumatic injuries and was believed to be 18-39 yrs old.

A while male who was found on 11/09/1982 on a "sidewalk" in Los Angeles. He was believed to be in between 18 and 28 yrs old.

A white male found on 02/08/1982 in between Terminal Island and San Pedro. His decomposed state led to a cause of death being unknown. In between 25 and 35 yrs old.

A white male found on 12/28/1981 behind 5623 Hollywood Blvd in Los Angeles. He was in between 18-22 yrs old and no cause of death has been revealed.

A white male found on 05/30/1980 in the San Francisco Bay. The body was noted to have track marks on it, implying that he may have been an IV drug user. This also means he could have been the "User" listed on Kraft's scorecard. (He referred to marijuana as "dope".) This young man was in between 20 and 40 years old.

A white male found on 11/30/1979 in a reservoir in Taft, California. He was in between the ages of 15 and 27. Though his remains were skeletal, he was clothed in a full outfit except underwear, shoes, and socks.

A white male found on 06/19/1979 on Ocean Beach, opposite of the 1740 Great Highway. He was noted to have a few tattoos but they were hard to distinguish because of decomposition. He was in between 18 and 30 years old.

I think it is important to keep in mind that the police weren't particularly looking into deaths of gay men in the 1970s and 1980s. Many of Kraft's victims did appear to die of a drug overdose, or accident, or alcohol intoxication. I wouldn't doubt police to just accept another gay kid dying outside a bar if there wasn't any outward trauma. Maybe even if there was.

 

[Ontheriver]

I've been researching Randy Kraft and attempting to decipher his score card recently, and have found a few possible victims.

The first found was the Long Beach John Doe (1978). He was a young man found dead in Long Beach, California in 1978. He was found strangled, which was Randy Kraft's signature way of killing his victims. He was a young, white male in between the ages of 15 and 19. Fitting Randy Kraft's victims to a T. He had long brown hair and hazel eyes. He was only blocks away from Ripple's, the bar that Kraft often hunted at. Some sources say he was found in a "road way" and others state he was found in a parking lot. This could mean he could be the victim on the score card listed as "Parking Lot".

The second John Doe is the Bell County John Doe of 1979. His official cause of death has never been released but the post mortem photos show bruising to the face and the neck. It is also believed that he could have drowned, another way that Kraft's victims have died. Not much is revealed about this John Doe but it is believed that he may have been European, meaning he potentially could be "England". I doubt he is the "Portland Hawaii" even if he was found in a Hawaiian shirt.

The third John Doe is the Sierra Madre John Doe. Next to none is known about him because he was found in a skeletal state. He was found to be wearing a "44" jersey. It is believed he was either white or Asian. Maybe a mixture of both. If he was Asian, he could be "Hari Kari"- a reference to the ritual disembowelment suicide of Japanese samurai.

The next few have only namus entries.

A white male found on 04/18/84 behind 800 Ocean Blvd. Only blocks from Ripple's. Body condition was a partial skeleton.

A white male found on 10/10/83 on the Los Angeles St off ramp of the Hollywood freeway. He died of traumatic injuries and was believed to be 18-39 yrs old.

A while male who was found on 11/09/1982 on a "sidewalk" in Los Angeles. He was believed to be in between 18 and 28 yrs old.

A white male found on 02/08/1982 in between Terminal Island and San Pedro. His decomposed state led to a cause of death being unknown. In between 25 and 35 yrs old.

A white male found on 12/28/1981 behind 5623 Hollywood Blvd in Los Angeles. He was in between 18-22 yrs old and no cause of death has been revealed.

A white male found on 05/30/1980 in the San Francisco Bay. The body was noted to have track marks on it, implying that he may have been an IV drug user. This also means he could have been the "User" listed on Kraft's scorecard. (He referred to marijuana as "dope".) This young man was in between 20 and 40 years old.

A white male found on 11/30/1979 in a reservoir in Taft, California. He was in between the ages of 15 and 27. Though his remains were skeletal, he was clothed in a full outfit except underwear, shoes, and socks.

A white male found on 06/19/1979 on Ocean Beach, opposite of the 1740 Great Highway. He was noted to have a few tattoos but they were hard to distinguish because of decomposition. He was in between 18 and 30 years old.

I think it is important to keep in mind that the police weren't particularly looking into deaths of gay men in the 1970s and 1980s. Many of Kraft's victims did appear to die of a drug overdose, or accident, or alcohol intoxication. I wouldn't doubt police to just accept another gay kid dying outside a bar if there wasn't any outward trauma. Maybe even if there was.

 

[Ontheriver]

I've researched Randy for years myself. Police believe "parking lot" is a reference to victim Keith Crotwell, whom Kraft picked up in a parking lot. As for Long Beach John Doe (1978), I've see his crime scene picture. He was found face down in the street. I believe he was found just blocks from Ripples. I've wondered if he is the one Kraft referred to as "Front of Ripples."
The entry called "Portland Hawaii" you mentioned was attributed to Lance Taggs, 19, whose body was found in Oregon. He grew up in Hawaii and was wearing a shirt that said Hawaii on it when he was found.
The "John Doe Sierra Madre" person you mentioned is very intriguing. That's the first one I have read that is possibly an Asian victim. That was a good catch. Maybe he is the "Hari Kari". The victim found in the Taft reservoir stood out as to me because he was found clothed except for shoes and socks, just like many of Randy's victims.

 

[Melt71]

Now has a Namus case - UP72085 which was created 25 July 2020
www.namus.gov/UnidentifiedPersons/Case#/72085/details

Circumstances of Recovery On 4/22/1973 body parts were discovered in multiple green plastic bags along the Terminal Island Freeway. He is believed to be a victim of serial killer Randy Kraft.
Details of Recovery
Estimated Age Range (Years) 17-25
Estimated Year of Death 1973
Estimated PMI--
Height 5' 2"-5' 10"(62-70 inches) , Estimated
Weight 135-160 lbs, Estimated

Inventory of Remains - One or both hands not recovered
Condition of Remains - Recognizable face​

Physical Description
Hair Color Brown
Head Hair Description Wavy curls, ~5" long
Facial Hair Description - Thin/fine mustache
Eye Color - Brown
Distinctive Physical Features Possible small mole on right side of neck below right ear

 

[AkitasAreLovely]

Hopefully UP72085 case will get more coverage.
I had emailed the LA County coroner Friday to get them to add this case to their website. So far they haven't, yet, but they did say that they added it to NamUs, which is also a good start. I can try to follow up with them to get more information on this case's status. I worry that they were cremated without any DNA being taken, as was the case with Wilmington Doe found two months prior.

 

[AkitasAreLovely]

Apparently this John Doe was cremated in 1974 without DNA being taken, according to Los Angeles Medical Examiner-Coroner. Unfortunate but not surprising.
They did say that they didn't have any DNA available for their 1970s cases either.

 

[Melt71]

Apparently this John Doe was cremated in 1974 without DNA being taken, according to Los Angeles Medical Examiner-Coroner. Unfortunate but not surprising.
They did say that they didn't have any DNA available for their 1970s cases either.

Is it likely they would have retained any evidence found in the bags with him, that could be submitted for DNA testing? Namus doesn't mention any clothing or other items but we all know LE often hold back some details.

 

[UnlicensedPI]

I apologize if this has been mentioned before upthread, but I wanted to bring it to this board and I can't read through all 15 pages at the moment.

I saw the mention of LB Marina and began searching. I found an article on Oral Stuart who was thought to have deserted the Marine Corps in 1974 but was actually a John Doe. Some excerpts from the article:
"Stuart, who was from Des Moines and known to his friends and family as “Buddy,” didn’t desert the Marine Corps in 1974 – he was murdered.

His body was found on Nov. 10 of that year naked and dumped at The Lakes condominium complex on Spring Street, across from El Dorado Park and next to the San Gabriel (605) Freeway. He was classified as John Doe No. 155 until just last year, when they found strong evidence that the body was Stuart’s.

...

Carl Stuart believes his brother fell victim to serial killer Randy Kraft. Kraft, who was sentenced to death in 1989 for 16 homicides, is suspected of killing more than 60 young men, many of them military members, in the 1970s and 1980s.

At least one body was found in the Long Beach Marina and many more were dumped along Southland highways, though victims were also found out-of-state. Kraft also preyed on hitchhikers and young men in gay bars.

Kraft himself was discharged from the United States Air Force in 1969 for medical reasons, the same year he told his family he was gay. His victims were often found sadistically tortured and drugged before they were killed. Many were found with missing items of clothing or missing body parts.

Stuart was found nude and his body showed signs of trauma, Cox said, refusing to release further details due to the on-going investigation.

Carl Stuart identified his brother’s body after he was shown an autopsy photo and said the grisly condition of the remains seem to fit many of the methods described in Kraft’s confirmed murder cases."
Police ID body of Marine, once thought AWOL, from 1974 East Long Beach murder – Press Telegram

 

[AkitasAreLovely]

Is it likely they would have retained any evidence found in the bags with him, that could be submitted for DNA testing? Namus doesn't mention any clothing or other items but we all know LE often hold back some details.

I can ask them later this week. I didn't wish to bombard them with too many questions at once, since I am but a random citizen to them. I can't say for certain if they did, but that is what I hope. Both him and Wilmington John Doe's murders are officially unsolved (as far as I know, they weren't included in the 16 charges). They could try to get DNA from a sock, or, by some chance they had hair still, they could do a root/rootless DNA test from the hair like how they were able to identify Lisa Roberts this year. Rootless DNA procedures are quite expensive to do though, from what I have read. I contacted NCMEC to see if they could do at least a reconstruction of this Doe. Even with his brutal dismemberment, they've done a recon in the case of Beth Doe so I am confident they would be willing to do the same for him.
Moreover, Doe Network says LB John Doe 1978 has DNA available, but that contradicts the LA coroner's statement, so I'm taking their statement with a grain of salt even now.

Otherwise, I am reaching out to Orange County about Orange County, California - 74-03389-GR
I have a hunch that this Doe is a victim too.
Not much info on them besides a NamUs that says they were found nude on a roadside with a postmortem interval of three days. Obviously seems they didn't die at the scene because someone would have found them earlier, right? Plus it matches the body dump MO of Kraft very well, and he is known to have dumped another body that same year in Laguna Beach, which is right next to Laguna Hills.

 

[Dylansmom08]

After a few hours spent down the rabbit holes of evil I have come up with a few ideas about the coded list and I wanted to know what everyone elses’ thoughts were about it.

LB Marina—Could this mean Long Beach? And if it did would it possibly be referring to Larry Dean Williams last seen leaving his home to walk to the beach?
767DMCA - Larry Dean Williams

Wilmington--Body found in multiple green bags along the Terminal Island freeway Wilmington, CA on April 22,1973
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

Portland-- Possibly this UID that was found in the Willamette River 9/9/1983, was
found missing his shoes and one sock, Kraft often kept clothing items from his victims and the age range fits
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

Navy White—possibly Sean Kenneth Phelan a former Navy man who was last seen checking out of Six Pence Inn in Tustin, CA. Fits the description in the list, also in the age range and in the area that Kraft lived. The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

Front of Ripples—I believe that could be referring to Club Ripples, a club that was on Ocean Blvd

 

[AkitasAreLovely]

After a few hours spent down the rabbit holes of evil I have come up with a few ideas about the coded list and I wanted to know what everyone elses’ thoughts were about it.

LB Marina—Could this mean Long Beach? And if it did would it possibly be referring to Larry Dean Williams last seen leaving his home to walk to the beach?
767DMCA - Larry Dean Williams

Wilmington--Body found in multiple green bags along the Terminal Island freeway Wilmington, CA on April 22,1973
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

Portland-- Possibly this UID that was found in the Willamette River 9/9/1983, was
found missing his shoes and one sock, Kraft often kept clothing items from his victims and the age range fits
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

Navy White—possibly Sean Kenneth Phelan a former Navy man who was last seen checking out of Six Pence Inn in Tustin, CA. Fits the description in the list, also in the age range and in the area that Kraft lived. The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)

Front of Ripples—I believe that could be referring to Club Ripples, a club that was on Ocean Blvd

Larry Williams has been speculated to be a Kraft victim, unfortunately we don't have a body to confirm at all.

Wilmington had been speculated to be The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs) while the doe you specified is thought to be Hawth Off Head. Both were found in Wilmington area, of course. Kraft had a three HEAD references. One of whom was thought to be decapitated (MARINE HEAD BP), while the other PORTLAND HEAD was apparently not. Also not every decapitated body was referenced with HEAD (76 rings a bell). So you can still be correct.

Your Portland reference is a good one. Seems like this Doe was killed around the time Randy was arrested, and I am not sure he went to Portland on business in 1983. I have thought Portland would be a reference to his first Portland victim, whomever they were. If you've killed someone in a new area, it would make sense that just that word would be a trigger for remembering the crime. But I still think it's a good path. Especially with your apt catch on the shoes and sock being missing.

Navy White was thought to be James Cox, who was last seen hitchhiking wearing his Navy uniform. His body was discovered skeletonized a while later but they didn't make the ID til decades after. So it was never matched to Kraft. If Phelan was wearing white when he last disappeared though, he could be Navy White too!

Yes, the front of Ripples is a reference to Club Ripples. Was one Kraft frequented a lot in the 1970s, and it was known to be near where a few victims were picked up, or last seen.

 

[Ontheriver]

I can ask them later this week. I didn't wish to bombard them with too many questions at once, since I am but a random citizen to them. I can't say for certain if they did, but that is what I hope. Both him and Wilmington John Doe's murders are officially unsolved (as far as I know, they weren't included in the 16 charges). They could try to get DNA from a sock, or, by some chance they had hair still, they could do a root/rootless DNA test from the hair like how they were able to identify Lisa Roberts this year. Rootless DNA procedures are quite expensive to do though, from what I have read. I contacted NCMEC to see if they could do at least a reconstruction of this Doe. Even with his brutal dismemberment, they've done a recon in the case of Beth Doe so I am confident they would be willing to do the same for him.
Moreover, Doe Network says LB John Doe 1978 has DNA available, but that contradicts the LA coroner's statement, so I'm taking their statement with a grain of salt even now.

Otherwise, I am reaching out to Orange County about Orange County, California - 74-03389-GR
I have a hunch that this Doe is a victim too.
Not much info on them besides a NamUs that says they were found nude on a roadside with a postmortem interval of three days. Obviously seems they didn't die at the scene because someone would have found them earlier, right? Plus it matches the body dump MO of Kraft very well, and he is known to have dumped another body that same year in Laguna Beach, which is right next to Laguna Hills.

Is it likely they would have retained any evidence found in the bags with him, that could be submitted for DNA testing? Namus doesn't mention any clothing or other items but we all know LE often hold back some details.

Hopefully they saved the garbage bags as well. I wonder if they can test for DNA from the blood that would have stained the inside of the bags. This one has always bothered me because it is a recognizable face. I've seen the morgue photo.

 

[AkitasAreLovely]

Hopefully they saved the garbage bags as well. I wonder if they can test for DNA from the blood that would have stained the inside of the bags. This one has always bothered me because it is a recognizable face. I've seen the morgue photo.

I hope so. I can ask them next week if they have saved anything. My fear is that for UP72085, the stench of the bag might have made it something where they couldn't, or wouldn't want to keep it around for too long. I'm sure they would have dusted it for fingerprints though, but that's not too much help.
And by morgue photo, you refer to Wilmington John Doe yes? If so, I wonder if we can at least get a higher quality one like we did for Long Beach John Doe.