Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #11

[LoisLane]

But the crime map actually says "homicides" occurred at the following 2 times. Then it lists two (identical) times. It doesn't say that "two homicides" occurred.

Maybe I'm nit-picking, but this could mean any number of things. There may be 3 homicides, but only two with estimated times. There may be 3, but only two times were entered (in error?). There may be 3, but all are estimated to take place at the same time, but only 2 times were entered. Or, CPS may be unwilling to disclose any information about the third homicide on this map (which is a service to the public, but, as indicated in the disclaimer, is in no way guaranteed to be complete, accurate, etc.). Especially given the tight-lipped nature of the CPS thus far.

I think we all know that what the police know, and what they are willing to disclose to the public, are two different things. Just MOO.

Do you have a link that you could post for this? I have not seen it yet. Thanks!

 

[studyer]

Yes but if it is not possible to prove NO was killed at that location then he might either still be alive OR he was kidnapped and killed elsewhere which would automatically constitute first degree murder.

A complete lack of evidence is suspicious to me.

But you are assuming that NO would have to have been taken from the house by DG (to support the kidnapping theory and the 1st degree charge).

Without evidence to that effect, one could defend this as follows: suggest that the child was with the grandfather. What if the child was driven somewhere by AL. Then AL returns to the home and is killed along with the grandmother. NO is killed at another location.

In that case, there may be evidence that NO is deceased, but no evidence of a kidnapping, so no 1st degree charge.

Far fetched perhaps. But maybe enough to counter a 1st degree charge that requires proof of a kidnapping IMO.

In addition, didn't the initial Amber Alert suggest that NO might be with his grandfather? So perhaps they have evidence that suggests this - which would be then difficult to match up with a kidnapping charge.

They sound very confident about the evidence that they have. They have laid charges that are precise, and are linked specifically to each deceased. It does sound like we know very little compared to what they know.

 

[bakerlady]

The child was not supposed to be there, therefore there was no plan to murder the child. That is, the charge is that the accused made a plan to deliberately murder the grandparents. He went to the house to commit those murders. He did not have a plan to murder the child, as he had no idea that the child was there. If he had no plan to murder the grandparents, the child would still be alive. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the child was kidnapped, therefore a first degree charge does not apply. That is, there is insufficient evidence of murder or kidnapping at the Parkhill house in relation to the child. There must be additional evidence that demonstrates that the child is not alive.

It's possible that, in laying charges, the prosecutor looked at what could be directly proven. A first degree murder charge for the child could be heavily litigated, perhaps even derailing the entire case into a debate about whether that murder falls under the definition of first degree murder. At the same time, perhaps it can be cleared proven that the murders of the grandparents were planned and deliberate. A first degree murder conviction for the murders of the grandparents will put the accused in prison for the remainder of his life, and a second degree conviction for the murder of the child is simply an extension of those convictions ... because he was there at the time of the murders, and he vanished at the time of their murders.

I agree this makes sense and this was my theory for some time but I am open to suggestion and often ponder other scenarios.

 

[studyer]

Do you have a link that you could post for this? I have not seen it yet. Thanks!

Here is the front page of it - you need to 'accept' the conditions and you can search by area and crime.

http://crimemap.calgarypolice.ca/

 

[bakerlady]

Do you have a link that you could post for this? I have not seen it yet. Thanks!

http://crimemap.calgarypolice.ca/content/DisclaimerPage.aspx

 

[LoisLane]

Can anyone post the address for DG airdrie property within 5 mins?

A little late but I have this: 3, Site 12, RR2, Airdrie, AB, T4B 2A4

taken from this: http://www.tradekey.com/company/P2-Solutions-Ltd-8382577.html

 

[bakerlady]

Just wondering, does Calgary release 911 tapes? I know here it depends on the state or county.

 

[otto]

Just wondering, does Calgary release 911 tapes? I know here it depends on the state or county.

That's a good question. Perhaps they are made public at the time of trial, perhaps with permission from the court, but I doubt that they would be released prior to a trial.

 

[Slebby]

Yes but if it is not possible to prove NO was killed at that location then he might either still be alive OR he was kidnapped and killed elsewhere which would automatically constitute first degree murder.

A complete lack of evidence is suspicious to me.

Baker lady, I commented earlier that it's possible the blood and DNA evidence from the Liknes home proves that NO was killed there, and that perhaps one of his grandparents was killed elsewhere. Hence the 2nd degree murder charge. As Otto stated, if DG went to the Al's home intending to murder the Ls, he would have no way of knowing NO would be there. It was a spontaneous decision for NO to sleep over, impossible for DG to predict, and therefore impossible for him to form the premeditation to make NO's murder first degree. Make sense?

 

[bakerlady]

Baker lady, I commented earlier that it's possible the blood and DNA evidence from the Liknes home proves that NO was killed there, and that perhaps one of his grandparents was killed elsewhere. Hence the 2nd degree murder charge. As Otto stated, if DG went to the Al's home intending to murder the Ls, he would have no way of knowing NO would be there. It was a spontaneous decision for NO to sleep over, impossible for DG to predict, and therefore impossible for him to form the premeditation to make NO's murder first degree. Make sense?

Yes this does make sense actually. I wish they had a crime map for Airdrie....

 

[studyer]

Baker lady, I commented earlier that it's possible the blood and DNA evidence from the Liknes home proves that NO was killed there, and that perhaps one of his grandparents was killed elsewhere. Hence the 2nd degree murder charge. As Otto stated, if DG went to the Al's home intending to murder the Ls, he would have no way of knowing NO would be there. It was a spontaneous decision for NO to sleep over, impossible for DG to predict, and therefore impossible for him to form the premeditation to make NO's murder first degree. Make sense?

This makes to me as well. I'm not sure why we all keep assuming it is the two adults that are the two homicides on the crime map.

This also makes sense logically because the intent might be to kill the others first, and leave time to confront AL more directly if he was the main target.

 

[Slebby]

Yes this does make sense actually. I wish they had a crime map for Airdrie....

Well it's possible a crime map for Airdrie might not help either. The police may have drawn their conclusion on the 3rd murder charge based on evidence in DG's truck, or from garbage retrieved from the Spyhill landfill (such as blood-soaked clothing indicating a victim has been shot or stabbed) We can't know all the evidence at this time and it is frustrating when we want answers, justice, closure.

 

[goodasgold]

Just wondering, does Calgary release 911 tapes? I know here it depends on the state or county.

I would love to hear the initial 911 call from JO.

 

[stan laurel]

If NO can be found and alive that would be the most amazing outcome. If ransom is requested I sure hope they have the ability to handle it. It is pretty out-there but I believe in miracles.

as mentioned, wishful thinking on my part. it would be a nice glint amongst it all if it were true.

 

[LoisLane]

Can someone explain why in the sign on the garage bay door says post-mortem? It is the 3rd picture.

 

[LoisLane]

I think that the garbage was brought to the landfill from the residential garbage pick-up. LE would have requested the drop zones for a certain parameter to be closed off. I will look up the garbage pick-up day for the Parkhill area.

Here is the link for garbage and recycle schedule. The day for the Liknes pick-up is Tuesday. I assume garbage is collected on stat holidays.
http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/WRS/Pages...esidential-services/Garbage-Day-Schedule.aspx

 

[LoisLane]

That's interesting. I wonder if there was a tarp in the back of the green Ford at any time that matches those tarps. They look very accessible to anyone that can climb a chain link fence.

I always thought I could see something large and white in the front seat of the truck, but it was not a clear pic.

 

[Krystine]

Can someone explain why in the sign on the garage bay door says post-mortem? It is the 3rd picture.

I wondered that too, then concluded that must the Agriculture Canada premises. My best guess is that livestock suspected to be diseased is incinerated there.

 

[stan laurel]

I always thought I could see something large and white in the front seat of the truck, but it was not a clear pic.

being that he kept his truck in mint condition, d'ya think he may be on a forum for trucks/fords/etc as matt1? how does one filter such a thing? containing in quotation marks narrows it but there must be a simpler way???

 

[stan laurel]

I wondered that too, then concluded that must the Agriculture Canada premises. My best guess is that livestock suspected to be diseased is incinerated there.

maybe this will help. http://www.airdrie.ca/getDocument.cfm?ID=373

think farms get to do other forms of disposal?