Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #15

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Oh geez...thanks Krystine...thanks a HEAP :tantrum: ...now I have that gawd awful Robin Thicke song in my head! ;)



Yes...the 'theory' was waaaay back...and I've only watched a few of the shows...it was too depressing!



I agree with lye &/or chemicals of some sort...and burning. I don't know about the tire iron...the events at the house I just don't have a clear picture of....other than horrific. I don't like dissecting the works either...I'd just rather try and figure out finding them....


& this article about reporter questions & the disclosure thusfar:

http://www.660news.com/2014/09/17/preliminary-inquiry-set-for-douglas-garland/

"We’ve been through a large bulk of it, but I understand there’s still a lot more that’s going to come, I understand that we won’t have full disclosure until probably sometime later in November, early December,” Ross said."

One question that's been on my mind... I thought there were 6 children in A & K's family? 4 from AL's first marriage (EL, ALJr, Nancy & ?) Then of course JO & JL. Just wondering about the 4th from the 1st marriage...I could be wrong but...I'm pretty sure I remember there being 6...

Lori I wonder if KR may have said that to reporters? Maybe I was so shocked and stunned I missed it.... But I don't think so. The 4th child IIRC was not from his first wife or KL but a relationship between the two marriages. JO was not his child. JL is his son from his marriage to KL. So he had 5 children and a step-daughter. Elissa Carpenter's theory differs from mine in the same way that yours does.
 
So here are some articles I happened upon regarding the manufacture of meth. they are very interesting! In fact, the whole part on this site about meth is really interesting!

In the one article, it is like a timeline/history type of thing. It almost seems like DG was ahead of his time, perhaps that is why LE referred to him as a genius?? The article is interesting (to me at least) for a number of reasons, such as... the history, the P2P thing, and... the Mexican connection.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/etc/cron.html

In the other article, it is interesting because it talks somewhat about ingredients (BBM):



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/faqs/

I also wanted to note that DG, as we know, was charged with I believe 2 counts of 'trafficking' in regard to his 'meth lab' back in 1992, and according to this information on the link below, the penalty was several years, even back in 1992, and if when he finally got caught some 7 years years later after jumping bail, assuming/stealing a false identity, stealing a truck and being in possession of it, ducking a police officer, etc., the man only got 39 months, which was ultimately reduced to only 6 months. So I'm wondering...... how much meth was really involved in his operation that got busted? I know he told the judge that he made his own meth to treat his ADD, so I'm suggesting that the small sentence he received would kind of substantiate that. If he had been involved with a meth lab which produced all kinds of drugs to be sold to gangs and etc., I'm petty sure, IMHO, the penalty would have been much harsher, and especially when combined with the other, additional charges after taking off. I just wanted to make that point because it has been stated on here that he is some huge antisocial loser with a long history of criminal offences, and to me, that paints a much worse picture than what common sense might suggest after looking into sentencing for same. It seems that at one time the penalty was at 10 years, and that now it is more than that, but I found it hard to find historical info.



http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Canadian_Criminal_Law/Offences/Drug_Offences/Print_version#Meth_production

I saw that site.... Amazing how the recipes are shared and the whole how to. I was afraid to share for reasons that may be obvious :) regarding the 1992 bust there are conflicting reports. Several, however, state there was no finished product.
 
I think you will find..... In fact I know you will find ...... that I never, at any point, stated that there was a problem. I did provide links including the satirical one, the one quoting our Solicitor General and the one on the increased use of Crack in Calgary. All in support of a discussion opened by another poster. It seems there is a problem in Calgary among executives and it does not appear to be limited to any particular industry.
Cherchi, I wasn't really responding to you specifically so much as being too lazy to go back and respond to the comment you were commenting on. Also, I think otto is taking some heat for asking for links specific to drug use in the O and G industry in Calgary, and being told that the links have been provided. IMO, links in response to otto's request have not been provided. The discussion has been as specific as that - O and G industry and not just executives in Calgary in general. Sorry that my train of thought in responding to your comment wasn't clearer. See posts below that indicate otto's request and that the bulk of the discussion was related to the O and G industry and not "Calgary or Calgary execs in general"

Fair enough?? :peace:


BBM

"It is a fact that the victims have not in any way been connected with drugs, the mafia, the underground, or bikers"

I'm sorry....how is this a fact? Unless you have some inside information that isn't being shared...we have no idea if this is true or not. The O&G industry is full of the seedier side...transiebt people, deals, connections. There's no way, without an in depth investigation of AL's business deals, connections, employees, investors, etc...that anyone can say there wasn't at the very least an indirect association, if not direct. Big business, big money, big players...very often comes with BIG troubles.

If the victims have been connected with drugs, mafia, the underground, or bikers, please post a link to support that claim.
Without a link to support the claim, it is a fact that the victims have not in any way been connected with the above.

Perhaps when people see Nexen or Cenovus employees taking lunch breaks in their suits, they imagine that they are seedy, transient (not sure what a transient oil/gas employee is) weirdos making deals and connections ... I don't know why anyone would think that ... but perhaps they do. The facts of the case are straight forward, and there is no factual information connecting the victims to drugs.

In fact, I think it's absolutely bizarre that anyone thinks that the Calgary oil and gas industry is filled with transient, seedy people. How in the world can Calgary be leading the Canadian oil industry if the employees are such questionable characters. How about a reality check. Check out the Calgary oil/gas industry before suggesting that they're a bunch of seedy transients.

Regarding the allegation that oil and gas employees are seedy, transient people that are busy making deals and connections, let's consider for a moment that both of Nathan's parents, and his grandfather, are/were oil and gas employees. I am actually offended that anyone would generalize about the oil industry in that way. In reality, oil/gas industry employees are professional, hard working engineers, engineering technologists, accountants, lawyers, and other professionals that conduct themselves according to the expectations of their profession. They should not under any circumstances be portrayed as seedy, transient people that have drug connections.

I took this as a gross generalization about an entire industry based on what sounds like a description of renegade riggers! I feel this might be insulting to a great many Albertans!

So was I. Trust me, there is a lot of seedy, transient people in the O&G business, and other businesses as well. People are people, these types show up in every industry, every neighborhood, and every street corner.

I know the Engineers, Lawyers, Accountants, Engineering Technologists, Owners, GM's, VP's, equipment operators, truck drivers, tool pushes, Foremen, etc, etc, etc. There are nurses and doctors on staff as well. There are pilots, and retired and/or ex-LE as well. There's all kinds of people in the O&G industry.

The victims, specifically the parents of Nathan, are both oil and gas employees. The grandfather, a victim, was an oil and gas employee.

Could you please provide a link to support the claim that the Calgary oil and gas industry is rife with illegal drug abuse.

It is common to request links for statements on this forum, especially when questionable claims are made. It's simply not true that the Calgary oil and gas industry is rife with illegal drug abuse, and that is the only explanation for the absence of a link.

Claims about Fort Mcmurray, a city that is 800 kilometres North of Calgary, are completely irrelevant. The claim that has been made is that the Calgary oil and gas industry is rife with illegal drug abuse. If it is not true, it should not be stated. If it is true, there should be ample sources to back up the claim.

Great. It has been repeatedly stated that the Calgary oil and gas industry is rife with illegal drug abuse. Where is the link?

Oh my gosh!!! No one said that! We are talking about the Oil and Gas industry...and that does extend past Calgary. Furthermore, a lot of Calgarians, Edmontonians, Smiths Fallians, Newfoundlanders, etc...work in the Oil and Gas industry in Fort Mac...the Oil and Gas industry is comprised of a collection of people from EVERYWHERE across Canada, as well as from Vietnam, Phillipines, etc. It's all the Oil & Gas industry. Please stop with this.

Excellent link, thank you for providing. And just because unsavory characters, drug abusers, and such exist within the O&G industry, even in Calgary, it is not to say that anyone in particular was or is involved in that type of thing. Things that are unknown simply cannot be stated as fact one way or another, I think that was the point of this discussion? And it applies to all of the speculation, ideas, accusations, thoughts, etc.


otto, it seems to me that you were asking for proof, a link, that drugs and unsavoury types exist in the O&G industry in Calgary, so I think people have been responding to your requests.

Excellent link, thank you for providing. And just because unsavory characters, drug abusers, and such exist within the O&G industry, even in Calgary, it is not to say that anyone in particular was or is involved in that type of thing. Things that are unknown simply cannot be stated as fact one way or another, I think that was the point of this discussion? And it applies to all of the speculation, ideas, accusations, thoughts, etc.
 
Not to sound totally uneducated, but what are y'fronts? (I haven't watched BB either).

The reporters read our posts! One admitted that to me today. We know one of them picked up my post exposing who the POI was and claiming a scoop nearly 2 days later :) I shared my theory waaaaay back when and no, I have not watched Breaking Bad. After seeing the trailer of the guy in his y-fronts I decided it wasn't for me :)
 
All posts in this regard were in response to your demands. If you insert the word "some" between "that" and "Calgary" your statement would be valid. One of my links quoted our Solicitor General. Valid? I'd say. A problem exists in our province. That is not to say any victims were in any way associated with drugs!

I requested a specific link to support the claim that Calgary oil and gas employees today have connections with illegal drugs. This was in response to the claims that Calgary oil/gas employees are "seedy", "transient", and connected with drugs.

I still have not seen any information to support that claim.

If the discussion about drugs in the oil industry has nothing to do with the case, why is there such an earnest effort to have that belief taken seriously?
,
 
My theory is that the victims were disposed of with lye and the calcified remains incinerated. Under pressure and feeling nauseated to even type it, I responded (separately) to someone's question as to how I thought the victims were murdered. I suggested they were bludgeoned with a tyre iron while sleeping. I can think of no reason why the victims would be removed from the scene unless it was to ensure that they would never be found. Why take that risk? I honestly feel sick even re typing this but there you have it.
I have been torn between believing he dissolved or burned the bodies, or the simpler theory (the KISS principle) that he dumped them or buried them somewhere they haven't been found and may never be, or may not for a long time. Bludgeoning with a tire iron or another heavy object certainly plays out if you imagine a killer simmering with long suppressed rage over a perceived offence.

imo
 
I think you will find..... In fact I know you will find ...... that I never, at any point, stated that there was a problem. I did provide links including the satirical one, the one quoting our Solicitor General and the one on the increased use of Crack in Calgary. All in support of a discussion opened by another poster. It seems there is a problem in Calgary among executives and it does not appear to be limited to any particular industry.

How does that opinion relate to the murder victims?
 
KR did not inform the court....I saw that report and scratched my head. I don't see that in any other reports and I certainly heard nothing to that effect. I have seen many pics of PG on Facebook. Only RO, NL, AL, CH and her husband were there. No other family of accused or victims. KR only showed up at 12 noon so who knows if that was by arrangement. The judge did ask very early in the day where KR was and why the sketch artist should have to sit there all morning. The judge is a very likeable man. Good humoured, kindly and very respectful to accused, counsel et al.

There was a report before the appearance that KR was *expected* to update the court... obviously, a rewrite without insight.
 
KR did not inform the court....I saw that report and scratched my head. I don't see that in any other reports and I certainly heard nothing to that effect. I have seen many pics of PG on Facebook. Only RO, NL, AL, CH and her husband were there. No other family of accused or victims. KR only showed up at 12 noon so who knows if that was by arrangement. The judge did ask very early in the day where KR was and why the sketch artist should have to sit there all morning. The judge is a very likeable man. Good humoured, kindly and very respectful to accused, counsel et al.

BBM

The media says otherwise.


"Douglas Garland, the man accused in the murders of Alvin and Kathy Liknes and their grandson Nathan O’Brien, appeared briefly in person at the Calgary Court Centre on Wednesday.

Garland’s lawyer, Kim Ross, provided an update to the court on how far he is through the disclosure of evidence from police.

The review of the disclosure will determine the next steps in the proceedings against Garland.
Garland has been charged with two counts of first degree murder in the deaths of the Liknes’ and one count of second degree murder in the death of their grandson Nathan.

The bodies of all three victims have not been found.

Garland is expected back in court in December. He will remain in the Remand Centre until that time."


http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/douglas-garland-appears-in-court-briefly-1.2010722#ixzz3DceYT2hv
 
I can't help thinking it is outrageous to think that DG could have done that (no offence to anyone, all ideas welcome!) But... if he did.. IMAGINE.. if it was the first time.. and it didn't work as expected, and he had a HUGE mess on his hands, and tried to burn the rest when it didn't work as hoped, and OMG.. LE comes knocking.. on and on.. I recall reading an article about even the mafia didn't have a way of making bodies disappear, that it was never as 'complete' as some people reported.

When I explore that DG has successfully disposed of 3 bodies with chemicals I can't help but think he must have experience doing so. I wonder if any large animals or dogs would have been used for practice. He must have tried this before.
 
When I explore that DG has successfully disposed of 3 bodies with chemicals I can't help but think he must have experience doing so. I wonder if any large animals or dogs would have been used for practice. He must have tried this before.
Its sad and sick to think, but unfortunately, you could be right.
I wonder if this form of disposal was part of the premeditation, and do the police have evidence of it? (e.g. computer searches "how to dissolve bodies with lye")
 
Yes, it is quite the world we live in today, with TV shows every day showing prospective criminals HOW to do things, HOW to get away with them, what things to be sure to check for so they avoid getting caught, etc. I just shake my head, even though I love watching some of those same TV shows myself ;/

I saw that site.... Amazing how the recipes are shared and the whole how to. I was afraid to share for reasons that may be obvious :) regarding the 1992 bust there are conflicting reports. Several, however, state there was no finished product.
 
Cherchi, I wasn't really responding to you specifically so much as being too lazy to go back and respond to the comment you were commenting on. Also, I think otto is taking some heat for asking for links specific to drug use in the O and G industry in Calgary, and being told that the links have been provided. IMO, links in response to otto's request have not been provided. The discussion has been as specific as that - O and G industry and not just executives in Calgary in general. Sorry that my train of thought in responding to your comment wasn't clearer. See posts below that indicate otto's request and that the bulk of the discussion was related to the O and G industry and not "Calgary or Calgary execs in general"

Fair enough?? :peace:


BBM

Peace indeed. Thank you for laying this out this way as it clarifies things for all of us. Since I made no claim and was simply researching to see if the allegations held water, I am vindicated, right? I was surprised at my findings and that the problem extends across various sectors.
 
Yes, it is quite the world we live in today, with TV shows every day showing prospective criminals HOW to do things, HOW to get away with them, what things to be sure to check for so they avoid getting caught, etc. I just shake my head, even though I love watching some of those same TV shows myself ;/

I had a similar thought today but it was by imagining DG being idolized by his fellow cellmates for successfully ridding of 3 bodies. It infuriates me that he could enjoy this whole process and be held with great respect in his new residence, in his new community.
 
I can't help thinking it is outrageous to think that DG could have done that (no offence to anyone, all ideas welcome!) But... if he did.. IMAGINE.. if it was the first time.. and it didn't work as expected, and he had a HUGE mess on his hands, and tried to burn the rest when it didn't work as hoped, and OMG.. LE comes knocking.. on and on.. I recall reading an article about even the mafia didn't have a way of making bodies disappear, that it was never as 'complete' as some people reported.

I agree,... the multiple murderer would have had his work cut out for him when he decided to dispose of the bodies away from the crime scene.
Three bodies to transport and somehow make disappear in a timely manner without attracting attention. Part of me still thinks it's a job for more than one small man, but I digress.
 
If it says it in the media, it must be true!
I find it interesting why one would bother to post the fact that KR DID update the court, and yet not also provide the details of what KR's update included.

BBM

The media says otherwise.


"Douglas Garland, the man accused in the murders of Alvin and Kathy Liknes and their grandson Nathan O’Brien, appeared briefly in person at the Calgary Court Centre on Wednesday.

Garland’s lawyer, Kim Ross, provided an update to the court on how far he is through the disclosure of evidence from police.

The review of the disclosure will determine the next steps in the proceedings against Garland.
Garland has been charged with two counts of first degree murder in the deaths of the Liknes’ and one count of second degree murder in the death of their grandson Nathan.

The bodies of all three victims have not been found.

Garland is expected back in court in December. He will remain in the Remand Centre until that time."


http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/douglas-garland-appears-in-court-briefly-1.2010722#ixzz3DceYT2hv
 
I'm just having such a hard time with how everything is rights related.. rather than truth related.. ie, an accused waits a YEAR to divulge whether he pleads guilty or not-guilty, and that is based on the EVIDENCE, as opposed to the truth..
deugirtni is feeling rather naive right now.

Yes, it is pretty sad isn't it? If he's by chance "not guilty"...he doesn't even get to tell the world that for another 8 months.
 
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