Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 June 2014 - #9

Discussion in '2010's Missing' started by Coldpizza, Jul 17, 2014.

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  1. Coldpizza

    Coldpizza WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Please continue here

    Please post Responsibly and respectfully.

    Please be mindful Websleuths is a victim friendly forum.

    :tyou:
     
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  3. sillybilly

    sillybilly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Google streetview shows this at the end of their street (about 4 houses down from the Liknes' home):

    [​IMG]

    It's the Elbow River Pathway (iirc) that runs alongside the river.
     
  4. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    full article:
    http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/amber-alert-issued-for-missing-five-year-old-from-calgary-1.1893711

    Thread#1

    Thread #2

    Thread #3

    Thread #4

    Thread #5

    Thread #6

    Thread #7

    Thread #8

    *Media, Maps & Timeline*

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ia-Maps-amp-Timeline*&p=10713927#post10713927

    Rules Etiquette & Information:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...iquette-amp-Information&p=8364858#post8364858
     
  5. sillybilly

    sillybilly Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    REVISED TIMELINE DATED JULY 16, 2014

    SUMMARY OF ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS INCLUDED IN THIS REVISION (in blue font):


    1960 added DG aliases
    1961 corrected Kathryn’s maiden name Prevost
    1973 DG’s parents bought the Airdrie property
    1980 DG attended Univ of Alberta (approx)
    1980 DG applied for his own SIN in his own name
    1988 charge of prohibited weapon dismissed
    1989 assault charge stayed
    1992 October charges listed in BC court registry
    1992 (correction re Can Test .. in charge of 30 not 15 employees
    1993 DG gets SIN and DL in the name of Matthew Hartley
    1998 October charges listed in BC court registry
    2000 DG released between June 19, 2000 and October 2000 after serving 1/6 of a 39 month sentence
    2005 March lawsuit, DG v. Ministry of National Revenue
    2006 FC said he carried gun because people wanted to hurt him
    2008 Corrected that Nathan O’Brien born 2008, not 2009
    2014 January FC released from prison
    June 30 CL arrival at L home
    July 2 LE says grandparents not considered suspects
    July 2 lights on in greenhouse, burning all day long
    July 7 DG’s parents’ pastor says they are doing as well as can be expected
    July 13 The Liknes home was released as a crime scene
    July 13 homicide detectives conclude 3 family members murdered
    July 14 DG re-arrested early morning hours near his parents’ farm in Airdrie
    July 14 LE presser re arrest and charges to be laid later
    July 14 DG formally charged
    July 16 second court appearance for DG
    Aug 14 third scheduled appearance for DG



    REVISED TIMELINE:

    1948 Alvin Cecil Liknes born (Alvin, AL)

    1960 Douglas Robert Garland born Jan 27 1960 (DG aka Douglas Garland, Matthew Kemper Hartley, Douglas John Garland)

    1961 Kathryn Faye Prevost born (Kathryn Liknes, Kathryn, KL, KFL)

    1973 DG’s parents bought the Airdrie property, 273149 RR 291, Airdrie, AB

    1980s Alvin involved in civil lawsuit(s) in 80s and 90s

    1980s exact dates unknown, DG studied science at the Univ of Alberta with plans to become a doctor. He left school without finishing a degree (apparently caught cheating, subsequently claimed he had a nervous breakdown)

    1980 DG applied for his own SIN in his own name

    1980 October 29 Head-on collision 6 km southeast of Cardston, AB claimed the lives of Jill Lorene Hartley and Matthew Kemper Hartley

    1988 charge of prohibited weapon dismissed against DG

    1989 assault charge stayed against DG

    1989 approx year Alvin and Kathryn married (Alvin previously m. to SB)

    1990s Alvin involved in civil lawsuit(s) in 80s and 90s

    1992 October 23 drug raid at Garland farm. LE found beakers, Bunsen burners and boxes of chemicals used in the manufacture of meth. Evidence was also located at a rented facility in Crossfield, AB. DG disappeared for 7 years after the raid and assumed the identity of Matthew Kemper Hartley.

    1992 October 23 – charges listed in BC court registry under file #42183-1-H (against Douglas ROBERT Garland):

    FDA - 39(1) Traffic in a controlled drug Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert
    CCC - 353(1)(b) possessing automobile master key Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert
    CCC - 351(1) Possess break-in instrument Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert
    CCC - 351(1) Possess break-in instrument Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert
    CCC - 351(1) Possess break-in instrument Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert
    CCC - 354 Possession of property obtained by crime Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert
    CCC - 90(1) Possession of a prohibited weapon Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert

    1992 November 20 – charges listed in BC court registry under file #42183-1-H (against Douglas ROBERT Garland):

    CCC - 355(a) PSP - Over $1,000 Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert
    CCC - 355(b) PSP - Under $1,000 Commit GARLAND, DOUGLAS Robert


    1992 DG commenced working at Can Test chemical testing lab in Vancouver where he went on to supervise 30 chemists and technicians. At the same time he was also a lab auditor for the B.C. government, checking for quality assurance at various testing facilities. (Unclear if this last sentence pertains to the 1992-1997 job or the subsequent job)

    1993 DG applied for and received a SIN in the name of Matthew Hartley. Also applied for a driver's license
    under the name Matthew Hartley and conducted all his activities in Vancouver under the name Matthew Hartley

    1994 AL declared bankruptcy (business or personal?)

    1997 DG finished working at Can Test after nervous breakdown

    1998 October, DG arrested in Richmond BC in connection with a stolen tractor trailer unit

    1998 October 02 – charges listed in BC court registry under file #41250-2-C (against Douglas JOHN Garland, found by searching under the alias Matthew Hartley):

    CCC - 355(a) PSP Over $5,000 Commit GARLAND, Douglas JOHN Richmond BC
    CCC - 129(a) wilfully resisting or obstructing a peace officer Commit GARLAND, Douglas JOHN Richmond BC


    1999 May 31, DG arrested in Vancouver BC; had been working as a chemical mixer at the B.C. Institute of Technology under the name of deceased Matthew Kemper Hartley. Charges of impersonation, trafficking in a controlled substance, theft over $5,000, possession of break-in instruments, possession of property obtained by crime over $5,000 and obstructing a police officer (weapons charge dismissed?).

    2000 Alvin was the respondent in 2 civil law suits

    2000 DG was released between June 19, 2000 and October 2000 after serving 1/6 of a 39 month sentence

    2005 March, Calgary, AB, lawsuit DG v. Ministry of National Revenue, DG represented himself and won an appeal wrt whether his employment at Can Test was insurable and pensionable employment

    2006 January 2, Alvin Liknes’ daughter, EAL shot by ex-common-law husband, 61 yo Fernando Chora in Okotoks, AB. Chora (represented by Calgary lawyer, Adriano Iovinelli) was acquitted of assault, but found guilty of fleeing the scene and 2 weapons charges and sentenced to 4 years with credit for time served. During the trial, Chora told the judge that he had provided EAL with a great deal of money because of a criminal lifestyle. FC said he still carried a gun because he had enemies who may want to hurt him. He said he left that lifestyle behind when he moved out of his Kamloops BC home with EAL and moved to Vulcan AB

    2008 Nathan O’Brien born (September?)

    2008 AL’s company Blue Sky Oil and Gas Corp, involved with natural gas production, was registered in Nevada. Filings indicate Blue Sky was in merger discussions with a Florida company called Whitemark Homes Inc. As a result of the housing crash, Whitemark had proposed to take up resource development

    2009 DG's charged with "failure to yield to a pedestrian" and subsequent fine of $575

    2009 August 24, JO (nee JP-L) and RO married

    2012 KL ceased being a licenced realtor (as per Real Estate Council of Alberta in 2014 who said she had not been practising for two years)

    2012 KL declared personal bankruptcy

    2012 A Sarasota Florida-area businessmen involved with the Whitemark deal was a real estate developer with close ties to a man who was sentenced in 2012 to 3 yrs in prison for masterminding a large house-flipping fraud

    2013 DG ran his chemical manufacturing company, P2 Solutions Ltd until sometime this year

    2013 October, Alvin's son AL, said he last saw DG at his in-laws last Thanksgiving and said DG seemed a bit of a loner and didn't speak to him that much

    2013 December 5, title documents show the Liknes home was sold to a Calgary lawyer for $705,000. AL and KL continue to live in the home.

    2014

    2014 January FC released from prison

    2014 KL was involved in social media marketing, offering Search Engine Optimization services and website templates for businesses; also direct marketing for Nucerity (skincare products)

    June 11 estate sale ads started being placed in kijiji (ads placed June 11 to June 24)

    June 25 Winter Petroleum employees officially resigned on this date

    June 27 Friday, start of estate sale that was advertised as “SALE June 27,28,29th - FRIDAY 2PM-7PM, SATURDAY 8:30-4:00, SUNDAY 8:30-400”

    June 29 Winter Petroleum premises cleaned out

    June 29 locals report that the area near Parkhill neighbourhood had only a “brief spitting” of rain

    June 29 Sunday, JO attends estate sale at Liknes home with NO and his younger brother

    June 29 neighbour reports seeing AL playing in the park with NO around noon (elsewhere said NO in park and AL watching from by the garage in the back laneway)

    June 29 10:00pm approx. time JO leaves with the youngest boy and NO stays with AL and KL for a sleepover

    June 30 5:25am sunrise in Calgary

    June 30 10:00am Monday, JO returns to the Liknes house to pick up NO and nobody is at the home. She notifies LE

    June 30 10:00am Sometime in the morning after LE arrived, AL’s brother CL arrived at the home after having phoned and receiving no answer to his call(s?)

    June 30 5:15pm MT (mountain time) Amber Alert is issued

    July 1 Tuesday, AL and KL were to vacate their home at 124 38a Av SW, Calgary (to be verified whether July 1 or July 31)

    July 1, 11:00 am Investigators say they have no "significant leads" about the whereabouts of the missing family. Also that evidence at the Liknes home indicates the three family members left the residence against their will. LE ask anyone who attended the estate sale to contact them and that LE will be at Parkhill Community Centre on July 3 to meet with them. People are being asked to bring photos of what they bought to help investigators catalogue what was purchased and what remains in the house.

    July 1 2014 Police contacted 3 landfills asking for trash to be segregated

    July 1 RO sends an email late today to CTV Calgary saying that a reward will be announced Wednesday through CPS

    July 2 Wednesday, sometime after midnite and before morning, a neighbour of the Garlands is awake during the night and sees a light on in the greenhouse at the Garland farm. He says that is unusual.

    July 2 Neighbours notice that someone at the Garland property has been burning most of the day (elsewhere it said 2 days?)


    July 2 3:00pm MT (mountain time) JO and RO make public plea for the return of their son. LE say they have decided not to offer a cash reward at this time. LE also says the grandparents are not considered suspects.

    July 3 of approx. 200 people who attended sale, 80+ attended Parkhill Community Hall

    July 4 LE update says there was a violent struggle inside the Liknes home. They are searching for a green Ford F150 made in the late 1980s or early 1990s that was seen driving around the neighbourhood several times the night of the disappearance

    July 4 LE arrived at the Airdrie farm in the evening; a green truck matching the one LE is seeking is removed from the scene and POI DG is taken into custody

    July 5 Search takes place around the Liknes’ home and the park.

    July 6 DG continue search at farm but DG is released from custody. LE says he remains a POI

    July 7 DG makes first court appearance and will be back in court Wednesday, July 9

    July 7 It is announced that POI has link to Liknes family and has criminal past. (It becomes known that DG’s sister is in a CIL relationship with AL’s son AL)

    July 7 Pastor Dave Pollard of Airdrie United Church says DG’s parents are doing as well as can be expected under the circumstances

    July 8 It is said that detectives have interviewed staff of AL’s company that went bankrupt weeks before the family’s disappearance

    July 9 DG made second court appearance. Will return to court Friday July 11 when he could be released on conditions, including that he provide an address where he will be staying

    July 9 LE reveal that DG and AL had money dealings that soured and there is "bad blood" related to money between the two. They are not aware of the specifics

    July 9 LE ask property owners in rural areas outside Calgary to search their land for anything suspicious

    July 10 LE commenced search of Spyhill landfill; bags of (potential?) evidence removed by LE

    July 10 LE start search of second landfill site at 17th and 68th Street today

    July 10 RCMP Explosives disposal unit was dispatched to the Garland property in Airdrie today

    July 10 In LE presser today, they say they know who was hurt in the home

    July 10 Hundreds of people attend vigil held for the family

    July 11 DG released from custody on $750 bail with the following terms: keep the peace and be of good behaviour; must stay in province (cannot leave Alberta without permission), surrender passport within 24 hours of release, to report 3 days a week, first report to be July 15, must provide land line phone # if available to supervisor, must be home between the hours of 9 pm and 7 am each day, he is to reside at transitional housing - hotel, motel, Mustard Seed, Drop-In Centre, Salvation Army Centre of Hope, or homeless shelter, be back in court Aug. 6 at case management office, not possess ID other than his own. DG asks judge "I live on a farm, sometimes working past 9 o'clock, would residence be on the farm itself?" The judge reminds him he won't be going to the farm but to some form of transitional housing.

    July 11 LE conclude search at southeast Calgary landfill and focus their efforts on an acreage north of the city and the Spyhill Landfill site. Also have a tactical unit at the Airdrie acreage to deal with dangerous and flammable chemicals that were found on the property. Asking people/businesses/oil companies in the Airdrie and Parkhill/Stanley Park areas to check their properties for absolutely anything out of the ordinary.

    July 11 Members of Liknes family confirm in the media that beef between AL and DG was over patent filed years ago by AL; family says it was AL's invention

    July 13 The Liknes home was released as a crime scene

    July 13 time unknown, homicide detectives conclude enough evidence to determine all 3 family members murdered

    July 14 1:30 am DG re-arrested in the early morning hours near his parents’ farm in Airdrie.

    July 14 1:00 pm LE holds presser to advise that an arrest has been made and that two charges of first-degree murder (AL andKL) and one charge of second-degree murder (NO) are pending in the case. Police did not confirm the name of the suspect, but family has told media that Douglas Garland is the person. LE expect charges to be laid later today.

    July 14 DG was formally charged late tonite with 2 counts of first degree murder related to Alvin and Kathryn Liknes, and 1 count of second degree with regard to Nathan O’Brien. His next court appearance is scheduled for Wednesday, July 16

    July 16 Second court appearance for DG. Case adjourned to Aug. 14, defence (Kim Ross) awaiting disclosure

    July 31 AL and KL were to vacate their home (to be verified whether July 31 or July 1 2014)

    August 14 Third scheduled appearance for DG
     
  6. Krystine

    Krystine New Member

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    http://s809.photobucket.com/user/sillybillyyyy/media/ElbowRiverpathway.png.html

    For some reason I can't let go of the theory that the green truck would be way too conspicuous in the driveway and that someone else, an accomplice, could have made his way to the house by way of this wooded trail at the end of the street. I also ponder whether someone was in the house to get the victims ready for transport, while the other circled the block.

    It does make a good case for AL's truck being used, with the green truck being used to pick up a second accomplice to leave the area.

    Just b/c LE don't have other suspects or accomplices doesn't mean there weren't any.
    I just wonder if it would be possible for one person to lift a 200 pound dead weight into a truck box. (adrenaline theory aside)...

    The other thing that niggles me is, why when there was back lane access that would provide a lot more cover, and less chance of a neighbour noticing something, was a presumed victim dragged from the side door to the front of the house.
     
  7. peony27

    peony27 New Member

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    Well there was no neighbour on the one side of the house. And I don't know about that neighbourhood but after 10 pm there is no one on my street, or even awake, even on the weekend.

    So you think not only one person was okay with killing a child but two? I think that would be very unlikely. And like other people have said it's not that difficult to drag , then lift a 200lb person especially with adrenaline. If LE think it was only one person they probably have very good reason to think so.
     
  8. PonderingNS

    PonderingNS New Member

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    Do we know that someone was drug TO the FRONT of the house ? It could have been someone been taken the other way, back towards the house and then either taken in to be wrapped up or out back through the gate to a truck parked out back. Just my thoughts.
     
  9. PrincessButtercup

    PrincessButtercup New Member

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    I'm not much of a theory poster but what if DG parked down the street with the intention of getting in, killing AL & KL, and leaving the bodies there but then NO is there so everything gets muddled. AL's truck is used because it's in the driveway and DG can avoid getting evidence in his truck. Another possibility .... KL is the one dead, DG takes NO with him in one vehicle for insurance and forces AL to drive the other with the threat of hurting NO or the promise that he won't, takes them somewhere ... kills both .... maybe not far so he can take the truck back and get back to his truck. It's not really clear but maybe something in it that just needs more thought on my part?

    ALjr said that the family left in the green truck which I believe was a slip as the police have not publicly confirmed this but it could still explain this scenario.
     
  10. peony27

    peony27 New Member

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    I think part of the reason that we think someone was dragged to the front is because of the drag marks that go to the front of the house to by the garage.
     
  11. PonderingNS

    PonderingNS New Member

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    From looking at the pics with the colors altered to blue and purple I would say it is just as likely that someone was injured in the driveway then pulled back to near the side door. Then either wrapped there or taken in and wrapped up. Then likely out through the back to a vehicle in the back lane. To me it appears as if there was a significant amount of blood hosed down the walkway with the hose. It runs down the side closest to the house, likely following any drag path, then turns and spreads out in an arc with the water at the bottom away from the house. Likely a small slope, just a thought. image.jpg
     
  12. winnnancy

    winnnancy New Member

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    I'm guessing a 200 lb body is much easier to manage with whatever degree of rigor Mortis it may have developed? As for a dead lift onto the tailgate, ( what's the weight of a hay bale? )
    I think that he may have " stood" a stiff AL pivoted a few times and slid into the bed of the truck. Jerky movements vs a slow lift.
     
  13. PonderingNS

    PonderingNS New Member

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    What proves they aren't going the other way ? Sorry if I missed this somehow in another post but someone could have been injured in the drive , bled near the 15 marker , then taken back to the house. The drag marks go from wide to smaller as they round that corner. Also just a though but it might not be drag marks at all but rather the effect of someone using one of those rope type mop heads to try and clean up. They may have pulled it through the blood drops causing them to smear. The person may have walked to or from the house along the walkway bleeding. Again , just throwing out an idea.
    image.jpg
     
  14. peony27

    peony27 New Member

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    http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Canada/Edmonton/ID/2471087671/

    If you look about a minute or so in they show the drag marks and it looks to me as if it's going towards the garage, just because of the one mark of blood in the grove of the pavement.
     
  15. RubyRed

    RubyRed "Keep on Truckin"

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    Nathan O'Brien case: Airdrie civilian search called off over backlash

    A civilian search effort in Airdrie to help find clues in the suspected killings of Nathan O'Brien and his grandparents, Kathy and Alvin Liknes, has been called off because of what organizers are saying is negative online backlash.

    Kevin Brookwell with Calgary police says he understands that people want to help, but questioned the usefulness of the search.

    "These folks — God bless them — they've got hearts of gold, and they're giving of their time to come out and search but it's a bit of a blind search. They don't know what they're looking for," he said


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ian-search-called-off-over-backlash-1.2708571


    The statement that they don't know what they are looking for, in my opinion, speaks volumes. And given the info on burning , I know what I am thinking. jmo
     
  16. julydarling

    julydarling New Member

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    The only reason I disagree with the accomplice theory is that DG is a loner. Everyone has described him as such. He's a loner who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. I don't believe he would be willing to bring an outside hand in to assist. He's had year to stew and plot this, so who knows what methods he dreamed up.
     
  17. appleeye

    appleeye Member

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    I have read that some of the Likness family is out searching now.

    I have posted all along that I feel like there are too many unanswered questions. I am wondering if there is a bit of backlash about what is percieved by the public as lack of effort and evidence now? Yes, the public has no right to the information but the vigilante searches is showing the frustration from the people that loved this family.

    Such a sad, tragic turn of events.

    http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/07/17/relative-of-triple-homicide-victims-we-have-to-find-them
     
  18. RubyRed

    RubyRed "Keep on Truckin"

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    Neighbours launch fundraiser for family of missing Calgarians

    First, we’ve had a ton of people wanting to donate in some capacity and secondly, as I sat down with Rod and got to learn more about what their immediate needs are, there’s a lot of expenses that I think the general public doesn’t understand. I didn’t understand it myself until I sat down with the family,” said Head.

    Head, with help from Nathan’s father, Rod O’Brien, set up a ******** page to collect donations to help the family with things like memorial services, moving and storage costs for Alvin and Kathy's home and legal and estate fees.

    “The house has to be moved out by the end of the month and moved into storage, well obviously no family member wants to go back to that premise so a lot of expenses that will be immediate that can really help them.






    Read more: http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/neighbour...of-missing-calgarians-1.1917293#ixzz37jmVWIt6



    The link will not post for the fundraiser , click from original article. They have raised over $ 19,000. The comments below article are so nice to read, many people offering their services for free.
     
  19. ldbd

    ldbd New Member

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    Been avoiding posting for several days now as this tragedy is so very heart wrenching but I want to extend my condolences to the families affected.

    Thank you for reconsidering the balloon idea for the safety of environment and wildlife. I never considered this before and am grateful to be educated about this risk.

    If I may hypothesize about something. In reference to a post that perhaps dear child was in bed with grandparents. I thought of this last week and it troubled me for many days. IMO I believe it is a real possibility that the grandparents put NO to sleep in their bed earlier in the evening. We know from kijiji ad that there is a dismantled bed frame that was for sale. The pull out couch was in the basement area if it was not sold by then and removed. It would seem to make logical sense that NO was put to sleep in his grandparents bed. I posted previously that LE was on the main level of home and left the front door open whereby MSM reporter focused in on the area add to that the front living room curtains remained open during the whole forensic process therefore I don't believe there was any forensic aftermath on the main living area. IMO I believe that the family was sleeping when DG entered the home. Many people do leave the doors unlocked or a window et al. I believe DG entered the grandparents room and that is where the incidents occurred. The statement by JO that Nathan was in his grandmothers arms (paraphrasing) has me believing that there is evidence in the bed of NO being cradled somehow. I am sorry, this is my own fear and not based on any released facts. Whatever occurred did not occur on the main living area imo. In terms of the light being on in the foyer often times when children are in the home we leave lights on for many reasons. The only other thought I had was AL answered the door, and DG forced him into the bedroom and that was where DG saw NO for the first time.
     
  20. PrincessButtercup

    PrincessButtercup New Member

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    Full rigor takes a while to set in. It generally begins about 2 hours after death but starts with the smaller muscles like those in the face. Unless he waited quite a while I would assume that full rigor wouldn't have set in

    http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/rigor-mortis-and-lividity.html
     
  21. Leeby

    Leeby New Member

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    IMHO I don't think anyone should ever discount the strength of a man who is used to doing daily heavy lifting and manual labour(farm work to a T). Case in point: when I was younger I helped my friends family move... They hired movers but they also brought in some of their personal employees to help speed the process (owned a landscaping company). Two of the employees were brothers who had grown up on a farm and had actually worked as movers prior to working for this persons company. These two guys were on their mid 30s and by all accounts thin... They did not have buff defined arms, they were slender. There was this massive old piano that looked to be solid oak and I remember the movers being apprehensive and going to get "equipment" to assist in lifting this heavy, old piano up a decent flight of stairs.... These two "skinny" guys didn't even bat an eyelash... They picked up that piano and literally ran up the stairs with it smiling... Looks can be very deceiving.

    Also in thinking about an accomplice theory I feel writes out by DG past criminal history. Two of the more pervasive problems in today's society are Meth and identity theft...But back in the 90s most people had not even heard of methamphetamine and ID theft was NOT happening in the way it is now.... FOIP laws were created in response to modern identity theft. Anyway, I believe to be involved in either of those activities, not to mention both, you would NEED to have ties to some form of organized crime. Again just my thoughts, that's all.

    Also I find it very, very odd that DG was caught using this old false identity. Surely LE would have taken all his materials, pertaining to the illegal identity, when he was charged years ago. For DG to have had docs prepared under the same stolen identity is extremely weird to me....
     
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