CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #3

[dotr]

I agree about the issues related to crating the dog,(poor things,glad they are loved)- I once had neighbours who would leave an unsupervised teen alone for the weekend, unaware of the very bad male company who would arrive to party and fight.My lab was young at the time when the(last) party scene turned dangerously violent outside, I was really frightened and so was my pup.For years afterward my dog shunned or was wary of anyone who lived or went to that house,although it was unseen from around the corner and we never walked past there- it became obvious to me the dog recognized the house/bad visitor scent-She continued for years to be wary of the family until the now adult, teen (and the bad crowd) moved on.
late night efforts of trying to say, the dog remembers the scent of everything- especially every spot where she has ever found a crumb outside.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Oh, I love the idea of LE holding up articles of clothing from the suspects to the dogs' noses. Brilliant!! OR, LE could lay articles of clothing strewn about in different places and see which ones the dogs go for (like cadaver dogs do). Sheer brilliance. :tyou:

 

[Woodland]

I've been wondering if LE told PK there were discrepancies in his polygraph to get him to stop posting here - he did tell us a fair bit, but nothing to revealing about the investigation and he did skip a lot of questions when he posted.

Or did he in fact have discrepancies?

 

[nicgumshoe]

I've been wondering if LE told PK there were discrepancies in his polygraph to get him to stop posting here - he did tell us a fair bit, but nothing to revealing about the investigation and he did skip a lot of questions when he posted.

Or did he in fact have discrepancies?

I think "discrepancies" is quite possibly the codeword for "failed", or it refers to parts in the test where on related questions, the results point to truthfulness for some and deception for others.

 

[nicgumshoe]

Oh, I love the idea of LE holding up articles of clothing from the suspects to the dogs' noses. Brilliant!! OR, LE could lay articles of clothing strewn about in different places and see which ones the dogs go for (like cadaver dogs do). Sheer brilliance. :tyou:

And....I also wonder about reactions to voice. If the dogs heard the killer's voice during the murder, they'd surely have adverse reactions to it today.

 

[Flossie JMO]

Thanks for the link dotr, I was waiting for the article on the dogs. They are in wonderful hands, Lorne and Syl are amazing.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

And....I also wonder about reactions to voice. If the dogs heard the killer's voice during the murder, they'd surely have adverse reactions to it today.

Another brilliant idea!!

As for the term "discrepancies" I also think it means "failed". Just like in medical terms - one no longer has "a heart attack"; now they say "a cardiac EVENT".:crazy:

------------------

ETA:Quoted from nicgumshoe:

I think "discrepancies" is quite possibly the codeword for "failed", or it refers to parts in the test where on related questions, the results point to truthfulness for some and deception for others.

Totally agree with this!!

 

[nicgumshoe]

Like many have stated, I agree that AG knew her killer, but I'm not so sure about connections with any other attacks/murders. Of course, it possible.

We know AG was a bit of a night owl, and night owls (like myself) sometimes go to bed in the morning, or in the darker, wee hours of the morning.

It's probable that she crated the dogs when she went to bed (as many folks do), but we've also been told that she sometimes crated them when PK (and presumably other trusted visitors) entered the house.

So, the question is....were they crated for AG's bed time, or for a trusted visitor?

Since AG wasn't found in/near bed, but rather in the garage, with her coat on, I'm thinking it's the latter: That she had a trusted visitor, crated the dogs, and when the person left, she threw on her coat to walk them out through the garage (leaving her purse inside...as she wasn't needing it). Or conversely, she crated the dogs (expecting a visitor would be entering her home) and then went to meet the person as they arrived. I believe PK has stated she would greet people in the garage.

The other question is, how was this meeting scheduled? By phone, email or orally (in person)?

If by phone or email, then there are records, and possibly other persons of interest.
However, since we were told about other parts of AG's final schedule; ie: soup being brought over, going to LA's on boxing day, the vet, last emails sent, etc....then we probably would also have been told about any other phone/email comms of interest, and thus other persons of interest.

Also, we might expect AG to document any scheduled meetings in an email, as she did when she mentioned LA was bringing her soup.

So, it seems we either have an undocumented, scheduled meeting of a trusted person, or a trusted person dropping by unexpectedly. I'll go with the latter, because as mentioned, we haven't heard of any special/extra comms that could suggest a meeting, and AG didn't document any other meeting in an email, or tell anyone as far as we know.

(Though, we do know about the semi-documented meeting scheduled in the "cake arrangement" phone call, in which PK claims he was to drop the cake off on that Thursday, December 30.)

So, who was trusted enough to just drop by, and trusted enough that AG would crate the dogs for him/her/them?

Since AG didn't always crate the dogs for PK, was this a special circumstance requiring crating? (For example, was there a special or extra guest, or was something the dogs might get excited about being brought in? ex. food)

Extra Questions:

Did she ever mention to anyone that PK was going to bring a cake?

How did AG feel about academic plagiarism? Would she feel compelled to report it?

 

[Hazel]

I've been wondering if LE told PK there were discrepancies in his polygraph to get him to stop posting here - he did tell us a fair bit, but nothing to revealing about the investigation and he did skip a lot of questions when he posted.

Or did he in fact have discrepancies?

I might be wrong, but I thought PK had already undergone the LDT before he came here.

and yes, I did notice the he skipped a lot of our questions Wish PK would one of these days come back....perhaps he cannot find his way back, now that we have a new thread?

 

[nicgumshoe]

And....I also wonder about reactions to voice. If the dogs heard the killer's voice during the murder, they'd surely have adverse reactions to it today.

But maybe if I knew the dogs would react with anger towards me, I might say they were always nipping and growling at me, and set the stage for any kind of future dog test.

 

[roseofsharon]

One aspect of the case I have always found quite interesting ...

If I went to visit a good friend and found them dead on their garage floor, the result of an obvious vicious attack, I would remove myself immediately from the scene.

If I didn't have a vehicle I would run as fast as my legs would take me to the nearest safe place or drive my car to the nearest safe place to make that call to 911.

No way would I stay at the scene, leaving myself vulnerable.

How would one know the killer(s) had left the scene??

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Like many have stated, I agree that AG knew her killer, but I'm not so sure about connections with any other attacks/murders. Of course, it possible.I know - big question mark here. I just feel it in my gut that the Shelley Lorraine attack IS connected to Audrey's murder. Call it intuition!

We know AG was a bit of a night owl, and night owls (like myself) sometimes go to bed in the morning, or in the darker, wee hours of the morning.

It's probable that she crated the dogs when she went to bed (as many folks do), but we've also been told that she sometimes crated them when PK (and presumably other trusted visitors) entered the house.Indeed, but I wonder why AG crated them *sometimes* for PK and not for others!! Perhaps AG didn't crate them when she and PK were working outdoors??

So, the question is....were they crated for AG's bed time, or for a trusted visitor?

Since AG wasn't found in/near bed, but rather in the garage, with her coat on, I'm thinking it's the latter: That she had a trusted visitor, crated the dogs, and when the person left, she threw on her coat to walk them out through the garage (leaving her purse inside...as she wasn't needing it). Or conversely, she crated the dogs (expecting a visitor would be entering her home) and then went to meet the person as they arrived. I believe PK has stated she would greet people in the garage.I'm going with this latter scenario!

The other question is, how was this meeting scheduled? By phone, email or orally (in person)?

If by phone or email, then there are records, and possibly other persons of interest.
However, since we were told about other parts of AG's final schedule; ie: soup being brought over, going to LA's on boxing day, the vet, last emails sent, etc....then we probably would also have been told about any other phone/email comms of interest, and thus other persons of interest.Yes - IF LE wants us to know these facts.

Also, we might expect AG to document any scheduled meetings in an email, as she did when she mentioned LA was bringing her soup.

So, it seems we either have an undocumented, scheduled meeting of a trusted person, or a trusted person dropping by unexpectedly. I'll go with the latter, because as mentioned, we haven't heard of any special/extra comms that could suggest a meeting, and AG didn't document any other meeting in an email, or tell anyone as far as we know.For some reason, I'm going with the highlighted part of your post.

(Though, we do know about the semi-documented meeting scheduled in the "cake arrangement" phone call, in which PK claims he was to drop the cake off on that Thursday, December 30.)

So, who was trusted enough to just drop by, and trusted enough that AG would crate the dogs for him/her/them?Perhaps someone we have NO IDEA about - ie, an online 'friend'. Or, PK or PK and his wife (to visit at Christmas time) or a female friend. Big question here!!:waitasec:

Since AG didn't always crate the dogs for PK, was this a special circumstance requiring crating? (For example, was there a special or extra guest, or was something the dogs might get excited about being brought in? ex. food)This is why I've suggested PK bringing his wife by to see Audrey for a Christmas visit.

Extra Questions:

Did she ever mention to anyone that PK was going to bring a cake?Not that we know of??

How did AG feel about academic plagiarism? Would she feel compelled to report it?What a brilliant question. I'd think it would irk her very much.

Comments are within the quoted post.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

One aspect of the case I have always found quite interesting ...

If I went to visit a good friend and found them dead on their garage floor, the result of an obvious vicious attack, I would remove myself immediately from the scene.

If I didn't have a vehicle I would run as fast as my legs would take me to the nearest safe place or drive my car to the nearest safe place to make that call to 911.

No way would I stay at the scene, leaving myself vulnerable.

How would one know the killer(s) had left the scene??

Good point - I feel exactly the same way as you do!

 

[Hazel]

Plagiarism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[roseofsharon]

Just curious -- did LE account for the delivery of the Texas stollen Christmas loaf/cake? Apparently, this is a fruitcake.

So if this cake was in hand, where did PK lay it down or put it when he came upon the scene. He could not check for pulse with cake in hand.

I'm not sure I would think to take a cake back with me, after coming upon a horrific scene such as he did, one would be in a state of shock, so curious as to what became of the cake?

 

[nicgumshoe]

So, who was trusted enough to just drop by, and trusted enough that AG would crate the dogs for him/her/them?<b>Perhaps someone we have NO IDEA about - ie, an online 'friend'. Or, PK or PK and his wife (to visit at Christmas time) or a female friend. Big question here!!.</b>

I have to agree with you NSU. Possibly PK and his wife!

I have to apologize for the vagueness in my last, larger post.
By "documented" I really meant that some form of traceable communication had taken place in which a meeting could have been arranged; either electronic or phone communication.

Assuming she crated the dogs because someone she knew was there or coming:

If it was an internet friend, there would be evidence of that on AG's pc, her ISP logs and any website logs. The only way to arrange a meeting with an internet friend would be to explicitly discuss that online, or electronically give someone a phone number to call. I think LE would have been all over that long ago, if there was something. The arrest of DS after a period, suggests there wasn't anything more than him to go on. So I think we can rule out an internet friend as someone AG arranged to meet.

If it had been another friend, we would also expect to find electronic or phone records showing recent communication with that person. Like with the internet stuff, I suspect LE have gone down this road too and found nothing where a meeting might have been arranged. (Other than with PK).

So, the only other way I can see AG arranging to meet with someone would be in a situation where she bumped into a friend and then said, "why don't you drop by...." For some reason, I really can't see her doing that. And if she was truly under the weather, I'd expect she would have phoned/emailed that person in order to cancel or reschedule. So I'm ruling out the orally transmitted invitation. At least it seems highly unlikely, to me.

However, there's that cake arrangement. If PK's wife made the cake, we can imagine AG wanting PK to bring her by as well. Maybe that did happen and something transpired.

But we must also wonder, was a cake arrangement ever made? There was no mention of "see yuh Thursday" in the final email to PK, even though she mentioned going to coffee "come hell or high water". (I think someone mentioned that b4).

And I've always wondered about car tracks. There was probably a bit of snow/slush. If something transpired prior to Thursday...then one would need a good reason to have their tire tracks present near the scene. And a cooked-up "cake story" might just do the trick.

As roseofsharon mentioned, why not flee the scene for safety reasons. I think almost anyone would panic and do that. Unless you had to be there.

ok...I know, I'm long-winded today. I rest my case for now

 

[dotr]

Just curious -- did LE account for the delivery of the Texas stollen Christmas loaf/cake? Apparently, this is a fruitcake.

So if this cake was in hand, where did PK lay it down or put it when he came upon the scene. He could not check for pulse with cake in hand.

I'm not sure I would think to take a cake back with me, after coming upon a horrific scene such as he did, one would be in a state of shock, so curious as to what became of the cake?

Perhaps the cake was ingested by the dogs.........but I imagine the tests run on the dogs might show that..

 

[Hazel]

But we must also wonder, was a cake arrangement ever made? There was no mention of "see yuh Thursday" in the final email to PK, even though she mentioned going to coffee ( 3 ) "come hell or high water". (I think someone mentioned that b4).

And I've always wondered about ( 1 ) car tracks. There was probably a bit of snow/slush. If something transpired prior to Thursday...then one would need a good reason to have their tire tracks present near the scene. And a cooked-up "cake story" might just do the trick.

As roseofsharon mentioned, ( 2 ) why not flee the scene for safety reasons. I think almost anyone would panic and do that. Unless you had to be there.

ok...I know, I'm long-winded today. I rest my case for now

Very good and interesting post NGS.
I have respectfully snipped your post, just to provide a few links:

( 1 ) Re: car tracks/tire threads:
Just after midnight on Thursday, Dec. 30, fog hung in the darkness over the snow-covered ground. Then it turned to freezing fog, which, as Audrey would have known better than most, happens when water droplets supercool and freeze on contact with a surface.
Later that morning, it rained.
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/594717--audrey-s-story-continues

He went outside and called 911 on his cell. The person on the other end asked him to confirm she was dead. He returned to the garage, knelt down and felt for a pulse.

( 2 ) Then he went outside, sat on the bumper of his car, and waited.
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/594717--audrey-s-story-continues

Later, she sent a new email, to Phil:

Monday, Dec. 27, 2010, 10:46 a.m.

Subject: report

From: baryon@golden.net

By Sunday the weakness was disappearing but still there. And would you believe that this morning I got a secondary infection; runny nose, runny eyes, sneezing. But at least I don&#8217;t feel weak so don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve a fever. I&#8217;m just annoyed with it. Hope it gets better because I intend to have coffee Wed. ( 3 ) come hell or high water. I&#8217;ve got cabin fever. Lynne is coming over with soup in a few minutes.

Bary
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/595858--who-is-audrey-gleave

 

[Hazel]

Perhaps the cake was ingested by the dogs.........but I imagine the tests run on the dogs might show that..

I imagined PK went back to his car, put the cake inside and called LE from his cell. If it was me, I would have dropped the cake on the floor, and run for my life, locked myself in the car, just like roseofsharon said

 

[Woodland]

I wonder what the subject was of PK's paper that he presented at a conference in San Diego this past June, as per part 4 of the Spec series in September. I wonder at what conference as well.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/596949--audrey-s-case-gets-colder