CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #5

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Quoted from dotr's link above about SL:

The family’s dogs — a Labradoodle named Chris (after a teddy bear Shelley used to own), and pug named Lucy — bound around Loder as he tries to explain the feelings that cycle through him.


So, another household with dogs!:waitasec: Did they raise a fuss while SL was being attacked? I know she was out in her barn/studio but still you'd think that dogs would sense a non-family member!

Unless.................:waitasec:
 
Quoted from roseofsharon:

Of note, a row of trees obscure AG's home somewhat, as they do with SL's home.

ROS, I've never driven/been past AG's home.

QUESTION:
Are these trees which you saw filled in enough to hide a criminal/attacker? Or, are they spaced out at intervals? Also, you said "trees" - are we to understand that they are tall fully grown 'trees' or could they be considered "thick bushes"? If so, could the killer have hidden in the 'bushes'? I mean - would they be thick enough?

Oh, and before I forget - I also think the killer was someone AG knew/expected to arrive at her house that horrible night. (Could she have had cough meds, etc. delivered from a pharmacy?)

Many thanks!!

Stone
:seeya:

--------------

ETA:
Maybe we should make a list of the similarities with AG, SL and SV. I'll start, kindly add to the lsit:

- extremely brutal - overkill in all cases
- the victims were alone when the perp(s) attacked
- remote areas where the victims were located/found
- all professional women
- all very intelligent
- all in an area of Southern Ontario where it's easy to travel to and from
- all (as of this minute) not solved by LE
- all savyy - used the internet, etc.
- all married or had male companions at one time
- all well-liked by friends/neighbours
- all (I think) pet lovers
- all had or were near horse farms/places

That's about it for me for now. Anyone else?? :)

Thanks NSU, they were taller type bushes, as I recall, and it looked like they were planted for the purpose of privacy way back when or perhaps as a wind break. As a matter of fact, when driving down the road, I missed the house because of the trees and had to turn around and it was like you had to look around a corner (being the trees) to see the home. The home is closer to the road than it appears in pictures though.

I do think someone could have easily hid in these trees, but maybe only in the dark. I will be passing through on my way east on Tuesday and will do another drive by to take a better look.

When I saw a picture of SL's home, her home had similar blockage in front of her home.

To add to your list No, two of them had white cars! Do we know what colour car SL had.

Added info: The trees were either pine or cedar and at least 15 ft. tall.
 
Yes, the white car similarity creeps me out a bit. Now if SL had a white vehicle, I'll :thud:!

Thanks roseofsharon for the trees/bushes info. I have no desire to drive by AG's house. I drove by Paul Bernardo's house and that was enough exploration for me!! :eek:
 
I know we have talked about the Stenbaugh Cemetery and a lot of activity that seems to go on there with the geocaching hobbyists, but do we know who maintains that cemetery, i.e. grass-cutting, digging plots as needed. I don't think it would be the city of Ancaster -- I think cemeteries are privately owned.

Also interested in knowing what utilities AG had in her home, i.e. who were the Internet servers for her computers and were they all the same, hydro supplier, heat supplier, cable, phone, etc., garbage collection schedule for that week, religious solicitation on that road in the past, biking clubs, hiking clubs. Also the stores she frequented, i.e. groceries, pharmacy, gas station.

We know she visited the Lynden library frequently -- did she often sign books out.

Were there any break-in's in the neighbourhood prior to the murder -- could AG have witnessed something sinister just by chance.
 
Going back to that email that PK received from AG ...

AG said she had cabin fever, but she had been out to LV's Dec. 26 and she took her dogs to the vet to pick up their vitamins -- date not clear.

Did AG tell more than one person that she thought she would be murdered and raped some day.

Unless AG made this comment to more than one person, I'm not so sure she said it. Why on earth would she make such a statement -- it makes no sense to me. If someone makes a comment like this, don't they usually back it up with the reason why they are saying it.

imo
 
Someone asked about the links. My apologies for forgetting who. Anyway, the linking can be done fairly easily. Just type the word, "link" and highlight it, then click the little globe picture with the chain. That will pop up a window where you pasted the url, and voila! Hope this helps. :)
 
This is just a coincidence, but thought I would post it anyway ...

LV was AG's best friend ...

(SL) - Mono attack

(SV) - Orangeville murder

A little eery to me.

imo
 
Going back to that email that PK received from AG ...

AG said she had cabin fever, but she had been out to LV's Dec. 26 and she took her dogs to the vet to pick up their vitamins -- date not clear.

Did AG tell more than one person that she thought she would be murdered and raped some day.

Unless AG made this comment to more than one person, I'm not so sure she said it. Why on earth would she make such a statement -- it makes no sense to me. If someone makes a comment like this, don't they usually back it up with the reason why they are saying it.

imo

OR, did her brother-in-law tell someone that AG had this feeling?:twocents:
 
Going back to that email that PK received from AG ...

AG said she had cabin fever, but she had been out to LV's Dec. 26 and she took her dogs to the vet to pick up their vitamins -- date not clear.

Did AG tell more than one person that she thought she would be murdered and raped some day.

Unless AG made this comment to more than one person, I'm not so sure she said it. Why on earth would she make such a statement -- it makes no sense to me. If someone makes a comment like this, don't they usually back it up with the reason why they are saying it.

imo

I guess it depends when she supposedly said that. If it was recent, then maybe she had a specific reason. If it was a long time ago, she may have just been stating something that many women might say living where she did.

We need more facts/specifics from media and LE!
 
Ok, I'm pondering a few things here: (This is bound to be full of spelling and language wonders, please forgive me. I'll correct them if I find them)

1) Is PK a main suspect? My guess is no, not at all. He joined WS just before the Wells 4-part story was released. At that point, after being interviewed by reporters, he would have known the story was about to come out. I don't think a PhD student would join and then commence to say a bunch of stuff that might make him look more guilty, or might conflict with what he told LE. It's a dangerous game to play. Also, any time he said anything it didn't seem like a killer's taunt, so he doesn't seem to be playing a "catch me if you can" game. I'm going with an LE ploy on that one: maybe to release certain facts, or maybe to steer us in another direction. (I was holding off mentioning my feelings on that, but since LE hasn't made progress it's time to move on).


2) Time of death: The part about AG's eyes being wide open, has always bothered me. The way they were described makes me think that death occurred closer to the 30th (time of discovery). The Wells story, and PK, suggest they were normal enough for PK to phone 911 and then go back to check for a pulse. ie: it was mentioned her dark eyes were wide open, almost like they were staring back. No mention of clouding that might be expected after a few days of death.

On the other hand, based on what we know about AG's habbits, it doesn't make sense that no comms were made after 6:00 pm-ish on December 27th. My feeling is that this is when the killer arrived. Did he stay until near the 30th, hold AG hostage and kill her then? Possibly, but I doubt it. That's a very risky game, when somebody could drop by at any time (especially over the holiday season). So, I'm going with the time of death being between 6:00 pm on the 27th to noon on the 28th, just because I think she would have normally contacted someone, somehow (email or phone) within those 18 hours. She had been out and about on the 27th, so she was well enough to phone and write more emails. So why did AG's eyes not haze over? Maybe the weather...or maybe Wells and LE mentioned the eyes because that was part of the trophy, or the killer did something to her eyes. (Actually, I thought of that after thinking the SL composite looks like an optometrist I've seen around, and optemetrists are somewhat into "lenses", like photographers...probably all conjecture on my part...but that's how it came to mind).

3) If not PK, then who? The scene has been desribed as horrific by LE, and not so by PK. Who do we believe? Since LE might throw us a curveball to find the killer, did they lead us to believe the scene was worse than it was? I don't think so. If you consider the arrest of DS, LE was looking for someone who they felt might go into a rage and commit a horrific murder. So we can consider it was as LE said.

But who? I think it's definitely someone who had reason to be in the area. If that "drywall saw looking thing" pulled from the ditch is connected, and is in fact a dry wall saw, then quite likely the killer is familiar with how to use one of those, and is possibly in that business. <modsnip> So who in that area was into that line of work, and also had reason to be at AG's, or had an interest that gave him motive to go there (ie: cars?)

Also, as LE mentioned about the SV case, is there someone like that (or anyone else) that moved from the area after the crime, and/or began drinking more or using more drugs? (Folks may not have noticed an increase in drinking or drugs because it was the holiday season...when this tends to happen anyway.)

If not a worker, then who? I'm still thinking a neighbor. Quite possibly someone with a history of rage that has flown under the radar. Someone that appears normal, but who has an undocumented history of violence. This type of person may not have appeared very distraught about the murder, but treated it more like "matter of fact". He may not have seemed too vigilant when first told to be by LE.

Whatever the case, I suspect the killer is familiar with dogs, maybe German Shepherds in particular. He may have experience with how to handle them with ease (even aggresive ones). He may even have/had some himself. Maybe he was specifically familiar with AG's dogs from being at her place before, or from the vets.
 
"People who behave oddly can be easy targets, he said.
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/544358--eccentric-doesn-t-equal-murderer
Given the severity of Gleave&#8217;s beating and her extremely private and quiet lifestyle, Adcock believes the murder was done out of anger and was likely committed by someone she knew, someone who was watching her or someone with issues related to women.

Police need to go back and start again with the victim&#8217;s profile, he suggested. &#8220;If you know your victim, you know your murderer.&#8221;

In most homicide investigations, the killer is known to police within the first 30 days but may not be considered a suspect because they are nice or co-operative, he said.

Adcock warned that unless Gleave was murdered for a deeply personal reason, there is a likelihood the killer could strike again.

&#8220;This is not going to be the last,&#8221; he said.

Adcock also suggested police look for sexual assault cases in the area. There is a still-unexplained sexual component to Gleave&#8217;s murder."
 
"People who behave oddly can be easy targets, he said.
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/544358--eccentric-doesn-t-equal-murderer
Given the severity of Gleave’s beating and her extremely private and quiet lifestyle, Adcock believes the murder was done out of anger and was likely committed by someone she knew, someone who was watching her or someone with issues related to women.Oh dear......

Police need to go back and start again with the victim’s profile, he suggested. “If you know your victim, you know your murderer.”

In most homicide investigations, the killer is known to police within the first 30 days but may not be considered a suspect because they are nice or co-operative, he said.Yep!!

Adcock warned that unless Gleave was murdered for a deeply personal reason, there is a likelihood the killer could strike again.

“This is not going to be the last,” he said.How upsetting is this?

Adcock also suggested police look for sexual assault cases in the area. There is a still-unexplained sexual component to Gleave’s murder."

Comments are within the quote. More to come!! And nic some wonderful ideas. Shall get to your post later on.

Is it just me, or is this AG situation becoming MORE UPSETTING as time passes?:back:

-------------

ETA: I'm going to take the liberty (hope it's OK) to post the entire thing from dotr's link. I feel it's got very important info and I still :innocent: don't know how to do the shadowraiths link thing!

Eccentric doesn’t equal murderer

<modsnip>
 
Ok, I'm pondering a few things here: (This is bound to be full of spelling and language wonders, please forgive me. I'll correct them if I find them)

1) Is PK a main suspect? My guess is no, not at all. He joined WS just before the Wells 4-part story was released. At that point, after being interviewed by reporters, he would have known the story was about to come out. I don't think a PhD student would join and then commence to say a bunch of stuff that might make him look more guilty, or might conflict with what he told LE. It's a dangerous game to play. Also, any time he said anything it didn't seem like a killer's taunt, so he doesn't seem to be playing a "catch me if you can" game. I'm going with an LE ploy on that one: maybe to release certain facts, or maybe to steer us in another direction. (I was holding off mentioning my feelings on that, but since LE hasn't made progress it's time to move on). I NOW tend to agree with you. He IS a POI but that doesn't make him the killer. DLS was also wrongly arrested for this murder, so I don't want to lay blame where it isn't warrented!


2) Time of death: The part about AG's eyes being wide open, has always bothered me. The way they were described makes me think that death occurred closer to the 30th (time of discovery). The Wells story, and PK, suggest they were normal enough for PK to phone 911 and then go back to check for a pulse. ie: it was mentioned her dark eyes were wide open, almost like they were staring back. No mention of clouding that might be expected after a few days of death. I'm starting to wonder if Jon Wells used that title for one of his articles as a 'hook', to get people to read! Also, PK could have been so freaked out his just said something like 'eyes open' to LE. And, it could be a way to lure out the killer - calling police saying NO, I closed the eyes as an example]

On the other hand, based on what we know about AG's habbits, it doesn't make sense that no comms were made after 6:00 pm-ish on December 27th. My feeling is that this is when the killer arrived. Did he stay until near the 30th, hold AG hostage and kill her then? Possibly, but I doubt it. That's a very risky game, when somebody could drop by at any time (especially over the holiday season). So, I'm going with the time of death being between 6:00 pm on the 27th to noon on the 28th, just because I think she would have normally contacted someone, somehow (email or phone) within those 18 hours. She had been out and about on the 27th, so she was well enough to phone and write more emails. So why did AG's eyes not haze over? Maybe the weather...or maybe Wells and LE mentioned the eyes because that was part of the trophy, or the killer did something to her eyes. (Actually, I thought of that after thinking the SL composite looks like an optometrist I've seen around, and optemetrists are somewhat into "lenses", like photographers...probably all conjecture on my part...but that's how it came to mind).I am thinking that the killer was in AG's house for a few days. I also think the killer sent the "Amazing Grace" emails. I think his final act was killing her.

3) If not PK, then who? The scene has been desribed as horrific by LE, and not so by PK. Who do we believe? Since LE might throw us a curveball to find the killer, did they lead us to believe the scene was worse than it was? I don't think so. If you consider the arrest of DS, LE was looking for someone who they felt might go into a rage and commit a horrific murder. So we can consider it was as LE said.

But who? I think it's definitely someone who had reason to be in the area. If that "drywall saw looking thing" pulled from the ditch is connected, and is in fact a dry wall saw, then quite likely the killer is familiar with how to use one of those, and is possibly in that business. Not to dis drywallers, but someone once said to me, "they're the scurge of the earth". Personally, I've known some great drywallers, but it is a profession that gets a good share of boarderline, semi-transient, alcohol/drug users. I've also seen more than a few like that. So who in that area was into that line of work, and also had reason to be at AG's, or had an interest that gave him motive to go there (ie: cars?)

Also, as LE mentioned about the SV case, is there someone like that (or anyone else) that moved from the area after the crime, and/or began drinking more or using more drugs? (Folks may not have noticed an increase in drinking or drugs because it was the holiday season...when this tends to happen anyway.)

If not a worker, then who? I'm still thinking a neighbor. Quite possibly someone with a history of rage that has flown under the radar. Someone that appears normal, but who has an undocumented history of violence. This type of person may not have appeared very distraught about the murder, but treated it more like "matter of fact". He may not have seemed too vigilant when first told to be by LE.

Whatever the case, I suspect the killer is familiar with dogs, maybe German Shepherds in particular. He may have experience with how to handle them with ease (even aggresive ones). He may even have/had some himself. Maybe he was specifically familiar with AG's dogs from being at her place before, or from the vets.


Comments contained within the quote.
 
Stone: I'm thinking he may have sent the final Amazing Grace email. But supposedly, she went out after sending the first.
 
Stone: I'm thinking he may have sent the final Amazing Grace email. But supposedly, she went out after sending the first.

WOW.....just plain WOW! Perhaps we were looking at the LYRICS of the song when really it's possibly the AG which tells the tale!:thumb: :Crown: :thumb:

------------

ETA: LOOK, nicgumshoe and roseofsharon are on to something with the intitials. SOME killers do use the victims' initials, for whatever reason:

LINK - http://community.aetv.com/service/displayDiscussionThreads.kickAction?as=119137&w=278284&d=657744
 
I keep thinking about the reports stating AG was severely beaten. If she wasn't sedated or initially knocked unconscious prior to the beating, then it stands to reason she would have fought back or at least made some noise. There is NO WAY (IMO) those two dogs of hers would have laid or stood quietly on the other side of a door while an attack occurred............. unless they were sedated. If they heard the attack, they would have been in a frenzy to get to her.
Do we know if they went into care with any injuries or if they had been tested for sedatives?
 
WOW.....just plain WOW! Perhaps we were looking at the LYRICS of the song when really it's possibly the AG which tells the tale!:thumb: :Crown: :thumb:

------------

ETA: LOOK, nicgumshoe and roseofsharon are on to something with the intitials. SOME killers do use the victims' initials, for whatever reason:

LINK - http://community.aetv.com/service/displayDiscussionThreads.kickAction?as=119137&w=278284&d=657744

We discussed the AG/Amazing Grace to some extent much earlier in Audrey's case. However, the observation of the surnames beginning with L and V ??

Prolly coinkydink, but do we have a victim (or 2) anywhere with a surname starting with E?

A, G, L, V ... just seem to be missing the E that would spell GLEAVE.
 
I keep thinking about the reports stating AG was severely beaten. If she wasn't sedated or initially knocked unconscious prior to the beating, then it stands to reason she would have fought back or at least made some noise. There is NO WAY (IMO) those two dogs of hers would have laid or stood quietly on the other side of a door while an attack occurred............. unless they were sedated. If they heard the attack, they would have been in a frenzy to get to her.
Do we know if they went into care with any injuries or if they had been tested for sedatives?

I believe that last article about the dogs mentions they dna samples taken (blood and hair)

"Detectives took DNA samples from the dogs — blood and hair — but it is unclear why."

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/617241--if-audrey-gleave-s-dogs-could-speak
 
Have obtained 2 of AG's signatures from the 70's from my lawyer. He was remiss in my request to obtain a signature from either 2007 or 2008, and have notified him as such. Trust that will come soon.

According to Salem it's OK to post them however I choose to wait for the mods to put the Will back on-line as well as Hazel's clever post that lined up the initials at the bottom of each page of the Will.

When that happens I will have confidence that all is OK with posts regarding the Will. If not, I can give this paid for info to someone else - <modsnip>, only that it is reviewed and compared in one place. <modsnip>.
The Will was never taken off-line Woodland. It is in Thread #3.
The 'initials' post was removed at my request :) can put it back on anytime <modsnip>.

Link to your post # 758
 
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