Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

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Satchie

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The autopsy will have determined whether they, or one, died in the position they were found, or died earlier and was moved. There would be 2 sets of marks on the neck, one from before and one from after death, and the tissue damage would be very different. They can also tell from the way the blood pools in different locations at the time of death, if they were moved.

I don't want to post a grisly quote, but this link explains how someone can hang themselves from a low position, such as L'Wren Scott, who was found slumped on the floor, having used a doorknob.

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/hanging
 

justchrissy47

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No estimate of how long they had been dead? If I remember correctly Mr Sherman hasn't gone into the office on Thursday which was unusual for him.

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk
 

spanishshara

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/17/...man-death.html?smid=tw-nytimesworld&smtyp=cur
A Canadian billionaire had promised to write an autobiography full of intrigue in the business world. The last chapter took place last Friday, when he and his wife met their deaths under suspicious circumstances.

The police said there were no signs of forced entry and no suspects-at-large the public should be concerned about.

Fred Waks, a real estate developer and close friend of the Shermans, said: “Barry was involved in big pharmacy on a worldwide basis. His lawsuits pertained to billions of dollars, back and forth. When you are dealing with the size of that industry and the amounts we are talking about, you make enemies.”
 

Websleuthbc

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for those web sleuths interested in staged suicide by hanging theory, the penultimate example must be roberto calvi found hanging from blackfriars bridge.

i think original verdict was suicde but family challenged that (partly so life insurance would pay off) and i think the family got it changed to murder as for him to hang himself the logistics would have caused materials to stick to his shoes and they weren't there.
 

Satchie

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/shermans-homicide-1.4453623

https://www.wsj.com/articles/police...investigated-as-homicides-1513560628?mod=e2tw

Ligature neck compressions, (strangulation per the above link) are the COD for both. Homicide has now taken over the investigation.

So someone killed them and then posed them to make it look like a suicide?

Not necessarily. The normal rules are, homicide is involved if there was evidence that at least one of the deaths was a murder.
 

Lilibet

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for those web sleuths interested in staged suicide by hanging theory, the penultimate example must be roberto calvi found hanging from blackfriars bridge.

i think original verdict was suicde but family challenged that (partly so life insurance would pay off) and i think the family got it changed to murder as for him to hang himself the logistics would have caused materials to stick to his shoes and they weren't there.

And Rebecca Zahau’s naked hanging death labeled suicide by LE in San Diego is being disputed by family in a lawsuit. There are signs that point to murder.
 

rosesfromangels

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I am really suspicious as to why the paper proclaimed this was a murder-suicide before the bodies were hardly cold. Seems VERY odd, considering a full investigation has not been completed. Very odd.
 

TTF14

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And Rebecca Zahau’s naked hanging death labeled suicide by LE in San Diego is being disputed by family in a lawsuit. There are signs that point to murder.

I still think about that one a lot!
 

Satchie

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I am really suspicious as to why the paper proclaimed this was a murder-suicide before the bodies were hardly cold. Seems VERY odd, considering a full investigation has not been completed. Very odd.

I don't see it as suspicious, it's just intense competition amongst the Toronto media to be first out with the news, in a small country where this kind of thing never happens, and everyone was wondering.
 

Websleuthbc

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Not necessarily. The normal rules are, homicide is involved if there was evidence that at least one of the deaths was a murder.

i thought that was obvious or highly likely very early on. surprised homicide wasn't in charge from the outset. maybe it's simply manpower. so many suicides that it would really slow down the homicide unit and no special treatment here.

i think the sherman's wealth, prominence and generally good name and whether they deserved different treatment from poor people in the same situation will become a major issue.

FWIW, i think their profiles does make this quite mysterious. therefore i do think police should have moved a bit more cautiously PR-wise... but perhaps the community has a right to know whether the police think that a killer is on the loose or not
 

dotr

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http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/shermans-homicide-1.4453623
Toronto homicide Det. Brandon Price told reporters outside the couple's home on Saturday that police "cannot say 100 per cent with certainty" whether or not foul play was involved.

Price said there were no signs of forced entry into the home, and that police were not searching for any outstanding suspects.
Corrections


  • A previous version of this story said the case is now a homicide investigation. In fact, Toronto police said the homicide unit is taking the lead in what they are calling a suspicious death investigation.
    Dec 17, 2017 8:44 PM ET
rbbm
 

ttcRider

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I don't see it as suspicious, it's just intense competition amongst the Toronto media to be first out with the news, in a small country where this kind of thing never happens, and everyone was wondering.

are you saying Canada is a small country? :laughing: Canada is larger than the US
 

Websleuthbc

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i find all the terminology confusing. unless they both committed suicide - i find that highly unlikely but anything is possible - then there was undoubtedly "foul play" involved - perhaps by a person who is now deceased. but that doesn't mean no foul play.

the absolute first thing that came to my mind when i saw was family $$$$$ matters. and i had forgotten about the uncle's kids. alhthough i knew generic drugs is extremely lawsuit-intensive and threats thereof.....

i first thought of davis from WWF (world wildlife federation) dying in the org's park garage around yonge/eglington. no obvious progress on that murder for a long time and then lo and behold one day an arrest... family $$$$ issues if my recollection is correct.... i think the victim was the son of nelson davis - long deceased canadian entrepeneur.

one obvious thing that the family members and police would know is whether they were still on cordial terms - holiday family dinners, let them into your house etc.) with the relatives who lost the inheritance lawsuit.
 

dotr

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https://www.cp24.com/news/apotex-founder-and-wife-died-of-neck-compression-police-1.3725485
Ligature neck compression refers to strangulation that occurs as the result of a rope or some other sort of ligature being wrapped around the neck, CP24 Crime Specialist Steve Ryan said.

Police sources have told CTV News that the two bodies were found hanging inside the home
In a statement Sunday one of the organizations the couple worked with closely said that the Sherman family is handling the funeral arrangements, though the plans have not yet been made public.

“The Sherman family is planning the funeral. UJA is lending any help that we can to allow them to carry out their wishes. The family has not finalized any plans yet,” United Jewish Appeal said in a statement to CP24.

Further details about the funeral are expected to be released in the next day or two
 

rosesfromangels

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I think that this comment is a bit harsh. Let's be respectful of the victims.

The point was made as a suggestion to a potential clue, not as disrespect to the decedents. I was attempting to identify any connection to a trade, the strength required etc.
Truly, no disrespect intended.
 

gdalton

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I don't see it as suspicious, it's just intense competition amongst the Toronto media to be first out with the news, in a small country where this kind of thing never happens, and everyone was wondering.

I think we've also got a distraught family who won't accept double suicide or murder-suicide...and who also happen to have very highly-placed friends.
Lot of big names (friends of the family) already commenting in the media.
The family has already voiced their displeasure with leaks/conjecture from Police sources.
I'm guessing Police are going to very tight-lipped about any developments from here on.
 
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