Discussion in 'Crimes in the News' started by dotr, Dec 15, 2017.
Ryan hasn’t been a journalist long.
It’s possible that, some of the time, sources are playing him.
I suppose, but cops, like firemen, are known to be tight even if they retire.
Going over to media isn’t a normal retirement. It only takes one cop to feed him and info.
Doesn’t seem like he is batting 1.000 so far.
K.Donovan also believed his TPS sources, hence the last-second changing of his initial story to be 'M/S', as opposed to 'double murder'. I can't see there is any doubt that at least some members of TPS believed this to have been M/S at the time.
We have 3 people here who we can kind of compare.. This Steve Ryan, who is/was a rather 'fresh' convert from TPS to 'reporter'... undoubtedly his ties would still be fresh, and it would be more difficult for him to perhaps be objective at that early point. Tom Klatt is on the family's PI team, and he is also a retired TPS, presumably also with some deep bonds still on the force, but yet one has to presume he is on the same bandwidth as Greenspan, in his thinking. Then there is KD, who is purely investigative reporter for a major news outlet, who has no real ties to TPS, other than of course he has developed some key sources over the years, whom he trusts to get relevant info from. I think it is easier for KD to express criticism of TPS, than it is for newer convert Steve Ryan.
I think basically all 3 of them are saying the same thing - that police thought this was M/S right up until some 6 weeks later when the news conference was held to declare 'double homicide'.
So what would/could be the reasons for why TPS would think that? Right from the beginning, myself, and so many others have felt right from the get-go that it sounded like an obvious double homicide, with the way the bodies were staged. Perhaps MistyWaters is correct in thinking there is something more to it, which we don't know about (yet), such as perhaps a (now deemed fake?) 'suicide note',.... (or perhaps a bogus 911 hangup call made from perhaps B's own cellphone, from outside of the home)?
By the same token that Ryan is saying, “There must have been compelling evidence in that home for them to make that announcement,” there also must have been compelling evidence after 6 weeks of investigation, for TPS to finally come to their determination of 'double homicide'. Up until that point, TPS hadn't made *any* public determination, although words had been used to give away their thinking, and this thinking was backed up by anonymous sources within TPS to virtually all of the news media at the time. KD wasn't the only one, nor Ryan, to have been told this, off the books.
Seems there is a LOT we just don't know about the whys and wherefores of police-thinking (either initially, or even now), and the evidence they had initially, and have accumulated since then, to go on. Some are fine to simply leave it in TPS's hands, trusting in their competence, while others aren't so confident, and are seeking answers as to why certain things were done, or not done, in certain ways. As much as media seems like they are a thorn in TPS's side, surely it can't hurt for TPS to know they have different entities watching them, keeping them on their toes, making sure t's are crossed, making them aware that at some point they may have to show justification for certain actions (or non actions, or slow actions), etc.
Can't wait until this all comes out in the wash, presumably during a trial. As much as I look forward to reading KD's book when it comes out, I think at this time, his hands are too tied, and information is too locked up, for him to write about enough on this case.
As I have posted before, I believe LE positioned it as a M/S for investigative reasons known to them. I also believe LE advised the family to not believe everything they were reading in the press. I also believe the family did not like the TPS public position that it was a M/S, and the family hired Greenspan to provide a different public message, in the interest of not tarnishing BS name/reputation. And finally I believe that is fundamentally why TPS and Greenspan seem to be at odds with each other during the investigation of this case. JMO
Being at odds with TPS like this is the ultimate dream scenario for a career criminal defence lawyer like Greenspan.
For one, it’s barely practicing law. Monitor information, issue press releases, make statements. Criminal practice can be very painstaking, particularly on constitutional issues involving exclusion/inclusion of evidence.
For two, his clients are wealthy beyond measure. Their motivations are deeply personal, not simply pragmatic.
Finally, he is being paid to generally and frequently discredit TPS. It raises his profile as the guy to take on the police, and he can hope to possibly discredit the force as a whole, which can never hurt his entire practice. And it’s just sport for him.
Following in your thoughts Idlager from above^^^^^, I feel much hinds on money talks.
How many people whose parents have been killed, are able to get a large police department to change their call on the cause of double homicide in a six week time frame?
We have no idea of what has taken place behind the scene as fas as TPD or Greenspan’s team.
I think of the Rebecca Zahauah case in California where the opposite side was so open and telling lies, that were incomprehensible from day one!
Interesting. In catching up on this thread I recall that there were a couple of people saying that this was some sort of police coverup, and that they actually believed it was a M/S. There hasn't been any of that kind of discussion in a while so I just figured it was a dead issue, but when someone with such a long connection to TPS Homicide starts questioning things, it makes me wonder.
Good points. One has to wonder about the validity of anything Greenspan says. He was hired because the family was upset at the prospect of this being deemed a murder/suicide. His job from day one was to refute that theory, not to necessarily find the truth. A defence attorney knows how to exploit any small discrepancies and spin them to the benefit of his client. Is it possible that this is what Greenspan is doing here? Painting a picture of what his clients want you to believe what happened?
And what happened with this? Weren't estate documents set to be unsealed on May 18th?
Barry and Honey Sherman: Court to unseal estate documents - Macleans.ca
I believe the order was stayed pending application by the trustees to the SCC.
I would be very surprised if the SCC grants them leave to appeal.
Why is the family trying to hush up this information?
I have never seen anything left in a house for demolition. A demolition company will generally remove anything of value from a home including plumbing, valuable materials like marble or quartz, windows, skylights, cabinetry, etc. It's all reusable. The furniture that we can see obviously wouldn't be cheap IKEA stuff given the Sherman's wealth. I'd guess that the family went through the house and removed what they felt was worth keeping, then bulldozed what was left. I'm guessing that they don't wan't Barry's lamp or table showing up on eBay or anywhere else.
If what Kevin Donovan is reporting is true, the police have either made serious errors or LE had/have good reason to believe this was a m/s. (IMO)
The issue we had here was providing proof to back up statements. (Also my opinion only.)
If the TPS say that this was a m/m, we have to believe them until proven otherwise.
I’m happy Kevin Donovan is pursuing the case. Some things just don’t appear to make sense. (Eg. the delay in questioning the real estate agent, obtaining the CCTV footage from the neighbour, not closing off the street..)
Likely just privacy.
Ya but everybody should be afforded the same amount of privacy. If my estate is public record, why shouldn't theirs? Just seems odd. When someone goes to great lengths to hide something, it usually means there's something to hide.
I'm happy he is too. Nobody else seems to be putting much effort in to it.
Wondering why JW at T.Sun does not seem to have been on the case lately.
Estate Planning For Privacy | JD Supra
May 23 2019 More legal info at link.
"The Supreme Court of Canada may soon be considering the intersection between estate and privacy law as well as the public policy behind the “open court” principle. The personal representatives of the estates of murdered Canadian billionaires, Barry and Honey Sherman, have indicated they intend to appeal a very recent Ontario Court of Appeal decision to overturn a sealing order over Court files relating to the Estates. The issues in this developing case also highlight the opportunities for estate planning strategies when privacy issues are a primary concern.
Barry and Honey Sherman, a prominent Toronto business and philanthropist couple, were found dead in their home on December 15, 2017 under suspicious circumstances. An ongoing police investigation is treating their deaths as a targeted double homicide. The case has garnered much media attention and speculation over the past year and a half.
According to one news article, Barry apparently died with a will dividing his estate equally between his children. Honey’s will could not be located. Their estates are estimated to be worth $5 billion.
If an individual dies with a will and owns significant enough assets or real property, the will is typically submitted to the Court for probate, a summary process to confirm the document’s validity. In the vast majority of cases, applications for a Grant of Probate are submitted by a paper application process that does not involve a Court attendance. The application contains information about the personal representatives of the estate, the beneficiaries as well as an inventory of estate assets.
In June 2018, the personal representatives of the Sherman Estates obtained a rare sealing order from Justice Dunphy of the Ontario Superior Court, removing public access to the Court’s probate file. A Toronto Star reporter appealed the sealing order."
Based on the evidence presented to the court, it really wasn’t great lengths. The family very much values privacy.
I don’t think they will make it to the SCC.