Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12

Discussion in 'Crimes in the News' started by dotr, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. rickcross

    rickcross Well-Known Member

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    What bothers me is that the autopsy was completed very quickly. If the cause of death was actually "Ligature Neck Compression", which basically is strangulation without the use of body weight, why did it take weeks to announce that this was a double homicide? Gomes said there were three possibilities, M/S, S/S and M/M. As it would be impossible to kill oneself, then string yourself up by the pool, it should have been 100% certain that this was a double murder by early January. Yet work orders were only processed listing only Honey as a victim many weeks later. I'm sorry, science supposedly says one thing, but the actions of the investigators does not jibe with what that information should have been telling them. Something is definitely not right with this investigation.
     


  2. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    deugirtni said:
    The thing is... there would be involuntary convulsions, nervous system/spinal reflexes. There is no way he could just will his body to sit there ever so peacefully with legs crossed in front of him and eye-glasses sitting properly on his face. If it is true that he was found this way, it speaks volumes in itself.

    I am talking about after consciousness has left.. it is involuntary, has nothing to do with 'peacefulness'; a reflex of the human body.

    As one example:

    Symptoms: The first symptoms are loss of power and subjective sensations, such as flashes of light and ringing and hissing noises in the ears. There is intense mental confusion, all power of logical thought is lost; the individual can do nothing to help himself even if it were possible. These are followed by loss of consciousness, which is so rapid, that it is regarded as a painless form of death. Then follows a stage of convulsions. The face is distorted and livid, eyes prominent, and there is violent struggling. Respiration stops before the heart, which may continue to beat for about 10 to 15 minutes.
    Hanging | Forensic Pathology Online
     
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  3. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    I’m not sure why you would say that honey didn’t die hanging from the railing, but you can’t say the same about Barry? They both evidently were killed before they were suspended from the railing. There is no evidence that I know that confirms where honey was killed. They just said she was moved from elsewhere in the house, afaik she may have been dead or alive at that point.
     
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  4. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    A double murder is the least likely scenario? Really?Why is that? LE has already confirmed it, based on the evidence they have analyzed.
     
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  5. casesensitive

    casesensitive Well-Known Member

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    With TPS remaining silent, we only have media reports on the crime scene based on leaks from their "sources", and the family's team headed by Greenspan. Keep in mind that nothing has been confirmed by TPS, nor have they refuted anything. They don't have to, but it has been noted that their silence is very unusual for any police department. IMO Greenspan would look like a fool and worse if his statements about the crime scene proved false and misleading. He does have the police photos, given to his pathologist by the initial pathologist.

    So if we believe some of these sources, the crime scene absolutely presented as a double homicide. We don't know why TPS seemed to assess it as a murder/suicide the same day the bodies were found, and apparently for another six weeks, because they aren't talking. We do know that they wouldn't even interview Dr. Chiasson about his second autopsy results until particulars were made public by Greenspan a month later.

    Most media responses to leaked information finally began questioning if the TPS screwed up the investigation from the start. Some Websleuth posters think that TPS had an ulterior motive in deceiving the media and the public by insinuating it was a murder/suicide to keep the killers off guard. Some people think that the crime scene must have had some significant evidence that denoted murder/suicide which fooled TPS. And some people think that TPS got it right--it was a murder/suicide covered up by TPS due to pressure from a wealthy family and powerful government influences.

    I have seriously considered the murder/suicide theory cover-up, especially after researching the TPS recent homicide screw up history, and in particular the police chief's defensive attitude which I posted about earlier. (He should have known that there was a serial killer and instead blamed the gay village for not reporting missing men which was absolutely untrue. After Bruce McArthur was arrested, he stated that there was no proof that he was a serial killer!) That shook my confidence in him and what he might be capable of doing under pressure from powerful influences. I also am not naive in thinking that power corrupts to to the highest level, including governments. But after considering all the information, I think it is rational to come to the conclusion that the Shermans were murdered.



    We have all read this--the signs of double homicide versus murder/suicide: Their coat sleeves being pulled down tightly behind their backs limiting their arm movements, Honey having signs of fighting and being bloodied before being hung up to the railing, their wrists showing signs of being bound at one time and no binding found at the house, the belt loop from Barry's neck to the railing not being capable of the force for self hanging, Barry's composed legs with feet crossed, and eye glasses undisturbed being atypical if not impossible in a self hanging.

    TPS obviously agreed with the second autopsies which had to be justified by forensic science, and approved by the head coroner for the record. Obviously, any recorded garbage science done for ulterior motives could be discredited by other forensic pathologists.

    There are no reported incidences of Barry ever being violent toward anyone in his life, let alone any signs of domestic violence or abuse. The only allegation came from KW who failed a polygraph test directly related to this allegation. (Barry asked him decades ago to find somebody to kill Honey).

    It goes without question that Barry had many enemies due to his ruthless business practices and his penchant for dealing with undesirable, scummy people--all deemed motives for murder.

    And finally, any cover-up of a police investigation's determination of m/s would have to involve the collusion of so many different professional people and departments, all willing to accept corruption and risk ruining their careers (some stellar, respected careers) so that Barry Sherman doesn't get a bad reputation for killing his wife? The m/s scenario hasn't passed the rational thinking test imo. I'm surprised that it is still being considered.
     
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  6. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    RBBM. Casesensitive, excellent summary. One question on the bolded part. I thought chiasson, the dr that did the second autopsy was now in private practice, or at least no longer working for the coroners office. As such, Do we know that the chief coroner would have reviewed this second autopsy? I believe it was funded by the family. Thanks.
     
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  7. rickcross

    rickcross Well-Known Member

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    A pool of blood was found beneath Honey, yet nothing on her clothing. I'm thinking she stopped pumping blood before she was strung up, but you could be right and she may have been still alive when hung.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  8. rickcross

    rickcross Well-Known Member

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    What I am saying is the crime scene fits a murder/suicide than it does a double murder. Show me just one instance of a double murder by hanging. The whole setup is just too bizarre. Murders just never happen like that. Suicides do.

    As for saying that LE confirmed it, you are ignoring the point that they are either covering it up or mistaken. Lets not forget that they ruled Wayne Millard as a suicide. Its not like TPS has a perfect track record.
     
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  9. rickcross

    rickcross Well-Known Member

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    My replies in red.

    We have all read this--the signs of double homicide versus murder/suicide: Their coat sleeves being pulled down tightly behind their backs limiting their arm movements, Honey having signs of fighting and being bloodied before being hung up to the railing, their wrists showing signs of being bound at one time and no binding found at the house, the belt loop from Barry's neck to the railing not being capable of the force for self hanging, Barry's composed legs with feet crossed, and eye glasses undisturbed being atypical if not impossible in a self hanging.

    A couple of things: I don't believe the jackets were tightly behind their backs, the description I've heard was "loosely behind their backs. To me this suggests suicide more than murder, as many "how to" articles suggest securing the hands before a suicidal hanging. As for their wrists, that came from Dr Chaisson, who didn't even examine the actual markings (as the actual coroner had removed the skin for testing). Now I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but let's not forget that Greenspan and his crew were being paid to discredit any notion of murder/suicide.

    TPS obviously agreed with the second autopsies which had to be justified by forensic science, and approved by the head coroner for the record. Obviously, any recorded garbage science done for ulterior motives could be discredited by other forensic pathologists.

    Did they? Or were TPS looking for an out to oblige the political requests on behalf of the family. From what I understand, the actual coroner was undecided. The opinion of Chaisson, may have just been the ammunition that the chief needed to reverse the direction of the case. In this sort of scenario, nobody is lying, and the direction of the case is decided by the combined information of two pathologists. The fact that the one with the strongest opinion was not impartial was irrelevant. Even if they are wrong, no danger to the public and nobody is getting away with anything.

    There are no reported incidences of Barry ever being violent toward anyone in his life, let alone any signs of domestic violence or abuse. The only allegation came from KW who failed a polygraph test directly related to this allegation. (Barry asked him decades ago to find somebody to kill Honey).

    This is a typical response, however many acts of spousal homicide are met with claims that there was never any signs of violence between them. The one thing that I have heard is that Barry had a temper, whether his wife was ever the target of that temper is unknown.

    It goes without question that Barry had many enemies due to his ruthless business practices and his penchant for dealing with undesirable, scummy people--all deemed motives for murder.

    Barry was a businessman. The head of a huge company. Lawsuits are just part of the game. Was he killed over a lawsuit? Maybe, maybe not, but I do not see how anybody involved in a lawsuit with Apotex would benefit from Barry's death? Any lawsuits would continue. And what possible reason would they have for killing Honey as well?

    And finally, any cover-up of a police investigation's determination of m/s would have to involve the collusion of so many different professional people and departments, all willing to accept corruption and risk ruining their careers (some stellar, respected careers) so that Barry Sherman doesn't get a bad reputation for killing his wife? The m/s scenario hasn't passed the rational thinking test imo. I'm surprised that it is still being considered.

    Again, I don't buy that. As in any large company, you do what your boss tells you. In this case, Saunders, armed with the inconclusive coroner report, and the biased second autopsy, has enough ammo to persuade Gomes to make an announcement. Lets face it, nobody can say at that point with 100% certainty that it is with M/M or M/S, so there is no reason for Gomes to object. Many times in my daily business dealings I have followed the direction of my boss even though I do not agree with the decision, and so long as they are not asking me to do something illegal, I will always follow their direction. And it seemed to pay off for Gomes a year later.
     
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  10. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    Please explain how Barry was so relaxed in his pose
     
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  11. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    rbbm.
    by Anne Kingston
    Dec 14, 2018
    Barry and Honey Sherman: Duelling investigations, high drama and still no answers - Macleans.ca
    "In short order, the media was filled with unattributed details about the deaths that pointed to professional killers — that the couple’s wrists had been bound; that Honey Sherman, believed to have arrived home first, struggled with her killer or killers and was found lying in a pool of her own blood. One detail widely circulated, that the Shermans’ winter coats had been pulled back behind them, thus immobilizing their arms, so clearly pointed to murder it was difficult to understand how anyone who had read Nancy Drew, let alone seasoned police officers, would have considered murder-suicide"

    "The Toronto Star provided a backstage look at the Greenspan-led investigation in May; the Wall Street Journal followed suit in June with “After a billionaire and his wife are found dead, their children try to crack the case.” The WSJ piece hammered away at the murder-suicide scenario abandoned by police months earlier; it cited photos with “another clue inconsistent with a suicide”: “The belt loop around Mr. Sherman’s neck didn’t appear to extend far enough from the railing to provide the force he would need to kill himself.” The private team had zeroed in on the detail of Barry Sherman’s legs “stretched out on the tiled floor,” it noted: “They wondered how his legs could have been so neatly aligned if he had strangled himself.”

    "In October, the investigation was put under the spotlight again by Bloomberg News. The Unsolved Murder of an Unusual Billionaire” was written by Matthew Campbell, a journalist who had attended the same high school as Jonathon Sherman a year apart and whose parents traveled in the same circles as Barry and Honey; Apotex had donated to the political campaign of his father, Barry Campbell, a former Liberal MP.

    "The story included previously unreported details from sources close to the investigation, though none were credited. In this telling, Barry Sherman’s legs were crossed, not “neatly aligned”: he “was seated, legs extended forward and crossed neatly at the ankles.” Campbell reported the “tidiness of the scene suggested the work of professionals,” adding a new theory to earlier reports that Sherman was found not wearing a belt: “one of the belts seemed to have been taken from Barry’s trousers.” Such last-minute improvisation contradicts the organized contract hit theory and raises questions: If one belt was brought to the scene, why not two? Did the killer intend to kill only one and end up murdering two? Or was this another detail reported by a journalist fed a tip he or she couldn’t corroborate? (Campbell declined to speak with Maclean’s.)"
    Oct 21 2018
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/shermans-murder-investigator-toronto-1.4878887
    "Greenspan offered some details about how the Shermans were found, noting that ligatures were wrapped around their necks and then around the pool railing, which forced them into an upright position. Barry's legs were outstretched, with one crossed over another. He was also still wearing his glasses, and the sleeves of his jacket were pulled behind him, which would have restricted the use of his arms."
    "The agent was touring the Sherman mansion with wealthy Chinese clients when they came across what appeared to be two bodies in the basement pool area of the home.
    The agent said he and his clients were surprised at what they saw, and couldn't believe the bodies were actually real.
    "This is a joke, something left over from Halloween," recalled the agent."


     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  12. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    They were not murdered by hanging. They were evidently killed from ligature neck compression, before they were attached to the railing. I certainly take your point about LE, tps certainly has has issues in cases in recent years.
     
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  13. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    I again return to the central question imo: why kill them both???
    Who stood to benefit the most from them both dying? Or, who hated them both so much that they wanted them BOTH dead?
     
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  14. rickcross

    rickcross Well-Known Member

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    Again, so says a biased ex-coroner. This was obviously not obvious to the current coroner as it wouldn't have taken six weeks for them to announce that it was a double murder, don't you think?
     
  15. casesensitive

    casesensitive Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Dr. Chiasson is Ontario's former chief pathologist, and is a senior pathologist at Toronto's Sick Children's Hospital. He performed the second autopsies at the Ontario Coroner's autopsy suite. I just assumed that the chief pathologist would have to agree with Dr. Chiasson's findings before the police would accept them. But I admit, I'm not sure if his report would be part of the official record.
     
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  16. rickcross

    rickcross Well-Known Member

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    Very good question. Barry and Honey seemed to have lead very separate lives. He concentrated on business while she handled the charity side of things. This to me is the biggest indication that this was not a double murder. There were plenty of reasons to kill Barry, no reason to kill Honey.
     
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  17. rickcross

    rickcross Well-Known Member

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    I believe the current coroner was present when Chaisson did the second autopsy.
     
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  18. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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  19. casesensitive

    casesensitive Well-Known Member

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    See dotr's recent post #152. :)
     
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  20. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    Immediately following the first autopsy (the official one), LE announced the cause of death for each had been 'ligature neck compression'.

    This had nothing to do with the second autopsy performed by Ontario's previous Chief Coroner hired by the family.

    Where do you see 'died by hanging'?

    You're right, hanging is not a generally accepted method of murder. Ligature strangling on the other hand, is not a generally accepted method of suicide. Take from that what you will, but it seems you might be reaching, to read into 'ligature neck compression' that the couple was hung. I can understand that it is far more exciting to think that all of the governments and their offices and police got together with the rich kids to present a conspiracy theory of murder rather than accepting the same as the simple facts as presented.
     
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