Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[MistyWaters]

Radar Online I think is generally sourcing Donovan. And they maybe sticking neck out on "imminent arrest"

Finally read PT 3 of Donovan's recent stuff.... JS ice rink stuff seems bizarre. Have Sherman charity foundation build high-end ice rink and fitness club, charge top dollar and JS will manage it for a fee.. How is that remotely charity? By any and all criteria?.. It 's so bizarre I question whether I read it correctly.. For-profit would be ok idea

Yeah who knows....the world is sure becoming a crazy place when MSM launches an online casino.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/torstar-casino-1.5931827
Owner of Toronto Star, Hamilton Spectator and other papers getting into online gambling

 

[MistyWaters]

I think the reference to a pattern come from the Star's last request for the court to release warrants:

"During cross-examination last week, Yim told court that four months into the investigation of the murders, homicide detectives noticed the “start of a pattern” in the mammoth quantity of information they amassed — believed to be witness interviews, banking documents, cellular phone records, video and audio files, GPS locational information and internet histories. The further they have gone in the case, Yim said “a pattern emerges.” What that pattern is, Yim would not say.
PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

Yim seems to me to be referring to a pattern of some kind that was observed by examining documents, which would cover the period before and up to the murders, rather than by examing people. For example, just off the top of my head, a pattern of secret meetings, or phone calls, or payments.

It seems to me Radar Online made a very different story, by how they reworded Yim's statement.

Thinking about what you wrote.....for the most part everyone’s realm of experience comes from murder mysteries, books or movies, where we tend to pick a suspect based on the character and then keep a watchful eye for happenings to support our hunches. If LE solved crimes that way, that’d be known as Tunnel Vision. Instead in a proper investigation, the evidence should point towards a possible suspect, not the other way around. If LE have been successful in noticing a pattern emerging, that’s a very good thing if it advances the investigation forward. JMO

 

[coleo9]

I think the problem JS has/had with his father is that he never understood that BS was a very rich introverted man whose only real form of entertainment was living vicariously through people he admired for their go-get-'em spirit and that the money he lavished on people like FDA was the equivalent to gambling with his own money. IMO

The Shermans don’t have the right to rewrite history. If my cousin went off the deep end and killed Honey..then, took his life as l believe....it’s simply the truth. Greenspan’s team of paid hacks mean nothing! If we can agree that the Sherman’s died suspiciously....why wasn’t there a full blown coroners inquest?
I was certain of one thing after spending 4 hours with lead detective B. Price....he’s a terrible poker player and l left 31 division at 1 in the morning 100% convinced of M/S.

T

The Shermans don’t have the right to rewrite history. If my cousin went off the deep end and killed Honey..then, took his life as l believe....it’s simply the truth. Greenspan’s team of paid hacks mean nothing! If we can agree that the Sherman’s died suspiciously....why wasn’t there a full blown coroners inquest?
I was certain of one thing after spending 4 hours with lead detective B. Price....he’s a terrible poker player and l left 31 division at 1 in the morning 100% convinced of M/S.

We speak for the dead to protect the living
The Office of the Chief Coroner for Ontario serves the living through high quality death investigations and inquests to ensure that no death will be overlooked, concealed or ignored. The findings are used to generate recommendations to help improve public safety and prevent deaths in similar circumstances.

 

[coleo9]

I think the problem JS has/had with his father is that he never understood that BS was a very rich introverted man whose only real form of entertainment was living vicariously through people he admired for their go-get-'em spirit and that the money he lavished on people like FDA was the equivalent to gambling with his own money. IMO

The Shermans don’t have the right to rewrite history. If my cousin went off the deep end and killed Honey..then, took his life as l believe....it’s simply the truth. Greenspan’s team of paid hacks mean nothing! If we can agree that the Sherman’s died suspiciously....why wasn’t there a full blown coroners inquest?
I was certain of one thing after spending 4 hours with lead detective B. Price....he’s a terrible poker player and l left 31 division at 1 in the morning 100% convinced of M/S.

T

The Shermans don’t have the right to rewrite history. If my cousin went off the deep end and killed Honey..then, took his life as l believe....it’s simply the truth. Greenspan’s team of paid hacks mean nothing! If we can agree that the Sherman’s died suspiciously....why wasn’t there a full blown coroners inquest?
I was certain of one thing after spending 4 hours with lead detective B. Price....he’s a terrible poker player and l left 31 division at 1 in the morning 100% convinced of M/S.

We speak for the dead to protect the living
The Office of the Chief Coroner for Ontario serves the living through high quality death investigations and inquests to ensure that no death will be overlooked, concealed or ignored. The findings are used to generate recommendations to help improve public safety and prevent deaths in similar circumstances.

 

[coleo9]

*Could Honey and Barry having cleared their schedule for Wednesday night somehow, be connected to Jonathon's return from Japan?
*The TPS stated they were reviewing numerous electronic records, I wonder if they discovered communication between the Parents and Son about his return from Japan, and possibly a scheduled meeting?
*The undisclosed video street video from that Wednesday is key to exonorating a number of POI's
*If TPS found Jonathon's DNA in the Old Colony house, it would be meaningless, as you would expect it to be there.
MOO

It is odd that the day Jon and Fred return is the day

Thinking about what you wrote.....for the most part everyone’s realm of experience comes from murder mysteries, books or movies, where we tend to pick a suspect based on the character and then keep a watchful eye for happenings to support our hunches. If LE solved crimes that way, that’d be known as Tunnel Vision. Instead in a proper investigation, the evidence should point towards a possible suspect, not the other way around. If LE have been successful in noticing a pattern emerging, that’s a very good thing if it advances the investigation forward. JMO

financial pattern? Related to the estate. Jonathon is the only one with a pattern of asking for $$ numerous times around the time of the deaths and of getting involved in his father’s financial affairs. At least the only one who owed his father. I wonder how he felt about his dad not asking for $$ back from Frank ? I think Jonathon is very much his fathers son. He learned to be ruthless and unemotional. <modsnip>

 

[coleo9]

They do say renovations can ruin marriages; perhaps building a mansion can literally kill one. Also what building contractors would want to do business with Barry? They must’ve been hard up to risk the eventual deficiencies; inherent in building, that would lead to eventual lawsuits with unending funds.

 

[MistyWaters]

T

We speak for the dead to protect the living
The Office of the Chief Coroner for Ontario serves the living through high quality death investigations and inquests to ensure that no death will be overlooked, concealed or ignored. The findings are used to generate recommendations to help improve public safety and prevent deaths in similar circumstances.

Im not sure if you’re supporting KWs comments regarding an inquiry or clarifying the role of the Ontario Coroner.

So on that topic in general, in Canada inquests are held if it’s possible to prevent other similar deaths from occurring, for example deaths in government institutions or work sites where safety legislation could require strengthening to save lives.

Inquests are not held by a Coroner for a jury to determine if a death was suicide or murder. Death rulings are the responsibility of the Office of the Chief Coroner, supported by the “high quality death investigation” in partnership with pathologists, LE, and other medical experts. If an inquest is required, it follows after any criminal proceedings. A recent example in Ontario is the Wettlaufer/nursing home tragedies. After she was convicted for murder, then an inquiry was held to determine what went wrong and what regulations would prevent future deaths. An inquest is far different from a prosecution or criminal trial as the recommendations are not legally binding.

Here’s a list of Ontario Inquests. In each example the manner of death of the deceased is known and the death involves an entity of some type which is either regulated or legislated -
Schedule of Inquests | Ministry of the Solicitor General

 

[coleo9]

Well I mostly thought it funny that their mandate is to protect the living- an inquest of any type would not protect the living in a murder investigation or a suicide or any combination thereof. It would be of interest to the public if the two autopsy reports differed and if there was provable incompetence on the part of the initial pathologist - the coroner ordered the initial autopsy. I think a Death Investigation would be in order simply on basis the deaths are deemed suspicious. It’s all here Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of the Solicitor General

 

[MistyWaters]

Well I mostly thought it funny that their mandate is to protect the living- an inquest of any type would not protect the living in a murder investigation or a suicide or any combination thereof. It would be of interest to the public if the two autopsy reports differed and if there was provable incompetence on the part of the initial pathologist - the coroner ordered the initial autopsy. I think a Death Investigation would be in order simply on basis the deaths are deemed suspicious. It’s all here Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of the Solicitor General

An official Death Investigation did occur. The results were announced by TPS on Jan 26, 2018. Until such time as death investigations are concluded LE always refer to deaths which may involve criminality as “suspicious”. That’s not at all unique to this case.

“Classified as “suspicious deaths” since Dec. 15, the Shermans are now officially homicides #64 and #65 in 2017.”
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, police say

 

[branmuffin]

Im not sure if you’re supporting KWs comments regarding an inquiry or clarifying the role of the Ontario Coroner.

So on that topic in general, in Canada inquests are held if it’s possible to prevent other similar deaths from occurring, for example deaths in government institutions or work sites where safety legislation could require strengthening to save lives.

Inquests are not held by a Coroner for a jury to determine if a death was suicide or murder. Death rulings are the responsibility of the Office of the Chief Coroner, supported by the “high quality death investigation” in partnership with pathologists, LE, and other medical experts. If an inquest is required, it follows after any criminal proceedings. A recent example in Ontario is the Wettlaufer/nursing home tragedies. After she was convicted for murder, then an inquiry was held to determine what went wrong and what regulations would prevent future deaths. An inquest is far different from a prosecution or criminal trial as the recommendations are not legally binding.

Here’s a list of Ontario Inquests. In each example the manner of death of the deceased is known and the death involves an entity of some type which is either regulated or legislated -
Schedule of Inquests | Ministry of the Solicitor General

I was a jury member on an inquest regarding a man who died in a rooming house on Shuter St. He died of a drug overdose. He was in his bed but he'd been 'tucked in' so obviously someone else was aware of his condition. The inquest was to ascertain whether a criminal event had occurred. The jury ruled that there was no criminal intent so the death was ruled undetermined. I'd add that the judge did not agree with us. In this case the deceased's identity was known as was his cause of death, it was the manner of death that was being investigated. So does this case contradict what you stated above?

 

[MistyWaters]

I was a jury member on an inquest regarding a man who died in a rooming house on Shuter St. He died of a drug overdose. He was in his bed but he'd been 'tucked in' so obviously someone else was aware of his condition. The inquest was to ascertain whether a criminal event had occurred. The jury ruled that there was no criminal intent so the death was ruled undetermined. I'd add that the judge did not agree with us. In this case the deceased's identity was known as was his cause of death, it was the manner of death that was being investigated. So does this case contradict what you stated above?

No it doesn’t contradict it, iirc public inquiries are required for all deaths occurring in hospitals. Nobody should die of a drug overdose while hospitalized. But that’s not relevant to a double homicide which occurred in a private residence.

If anyone has new evidence the Shermans died by m/s surely the media would be interested? Last resort, there’s always RadarOnline.

 

[Satchie]

I was a jury member on an inquest regarding a man who died in a rooming house on Shuter St. He died of a drug overdose. He was in his bed but he'd been 'tucked in' so obviously someone else was aware of his condition. The inquest was to ascertain whether a criminal event had occurred. The jury ruled that there was no criminal intent so the death was ruled undetermined. I'd add that the judge did not agree with us. In this case the deceased's identity was known as was his cause of death, it was the manner of death that was being investigated. So does this case contradict what you stated above?

Do you believe that, as an inquest jury, you could have ruled criminal intent, and the case would have been required to be investigated by LE?

 

[coleo9]

An official Death Investigation did occur. The results were announced by TPS on Jan 26, 2018. Until such time as death investigations are concluded LE always refer to deaths which may involve criminality as “suspicious”. That’s not at all unique to this case.

“Classified as “suspicious deaths” since Dec. 15, the Shermans are now officially homicides #64 and #65 in 2017.”
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, police say

Thanks for that; appreciate the source. It’s concluded it was homicide. Too bad it wasn’t investigated that way

 

[coleo9]

Oh the irony if Greenspan collected the reward and the perp was whom quite a few of us suspect.

He’s not Saul Goodman... unfortunately- I’m sure he’s made close to the reward amount in any regard.

 

[coleo9]

I’d imagine an opportunity of collecting the $10 million reward is a powerful motivator for anybody on the periphery.

Not going to happen if there’s atty client priv between him and said perp.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not going to happen if there’s atty client priv between him and said perp.

A media reporter isn’t an attorney, nor does one seek legal advice from a media reporter.

ETA - This is the best I can find, from a Canadian Journalist Newsletter. The same as any evidence, search warrants and subpoenas can be sought against the media. I don’t suppose KD would tell us if this has occurred.

SEARCH AND SEIZURE
From time to time, police forces attempt to compel journalists to turn over their materials – notes, photographs, recordings. In addition to depriving journalists of access to their work, this practice can put journalists at risk or make their job more difficult in future if they are seen as an arm of the police.

In Canada, examples of search and seizure have included taking cameras and recording devices from the hands of journalists reporting on a crime scene and the use of search warrants and subpoenas to gain access to a reporter’s work.
Free Expression and the Law

 

[branmuffin]

Do you believe that, as an inquest jury, you could have ruled criminal intent, and the case would have been required to be investigated by LE?

Based on the address to the jury from the presiding judge that's exactly what I think. We were admonished for not opening up the death to an investigation of criminal intent.

We felt the circumstances: a transient individual who was in a rooming house that was chock full of people who spent most of their days hanging out at the Armoury Park on Queen St. or in Allan Gardens and that none of them were aware enough that one of their own was exhibiting the signs of a drug overdose. If we had have ruled that the death was criminal then I think the investigation would have come to naught because there wasn't enough evidence of intent.

 

[MistyWaters]

Based on the address to the jury from the presiding judge that's exactly what I think. We were admonished for not opening up the death to an investigation of criminal intent.

We felt the circumstances: a transient individual who was in a rooming house that was chock full of people who spent most of their days hanging out at the Armoury Park on Queen St. or in Allen Gardens and that none of them were aware enough that one of their own was exhibiting the signs of a drug overdose. If we had have ruled that the death was criminal then I think the investigation would have come to naught because there wasn't enough evidence of intent.

My apologies, I thought you were referring to legal drugs. If the coroner and investigators couldn’t determine intent, I don’t know how a Public Inquiry would be expected to “rule”, or later for a jury to convict. Was there no recommendations put forth to minimize the occurrences of drug overdoses occurring in this facility? If there wasn’t, it would seem to me the inquiry missed the opportunity to save future lives at the time.

 

[branmuffin]

My apologies, I thought you were referring to legal drugs. If the coroner and investigators couldn’t determine intent, I don’t know how a Public Inquiry would be expected to “rule”, or later for a jury to convict. Was there no recommendations put forth to minimize the occurrences of drug overdoses occurring in this facility? If there wasn’t, it would seem to me the inquiry missed the opportunity to save future lives at the time.

It wasn't a facility, it was a crappy rooming house on Shuter St where transients collected during the nighttime hours. I think it was designated an historical building at one time but part of it was demolished.

 

[coleo9]

A media reporter isn’t an attorney, nor does one seek legal advice from a media reporter.

ETA - This is the best I can find, from a Canadian Journalist Newsletter. The same as any evidence, search warrants and subpoenas can be sought against the media. I don’t suppose KD would tell us if this has occurred.

SEARCH AND SEIZURE
From time to time, police forces attempt to compel journalists to turn over their materials – notes, photographs, recordings. In addition to depriving journalists of access to their work, this practice can put journalists at risk or make their job more difficult in future if they are seen as an arm of the police.

In Canada, examples of search and seizure have included taking cameras and recording devices from the hands of journalists reporting on a crime scene and the use of search warrants and subpoenas to gain access to a reporter’s work.
Free Expression and the Law

I was referring to someone saying Greenspan will get reward
Last I checked he was a lawyer