Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

Discussion in 'Crimes in the News' started by dotr, Dec 15, 2017.

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  1. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    Sure there is a difference in the two men in the examples quoted above, and any associated stigma surrounding their actions, however in the Sherman case, we already know that H was full of life with many imminent plans, etc. She wasn't bedridden by any means, and was in fact doing workouts to keep in shape. So how does this case relate in any way to this distinction?
     
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  2. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    I’ve noticed absolutely no connection to so-called mercy killings and this case.

    The negative stigma of m/s, domestic violence and spousal homicide is what I was referring to when I earlier wrote the intentional staging of the bodies seemed designed to inflict shock, horror, humiliation and shame upon the victims and on the Sherman family name as well. Nothing whatsoever indicated Barry was a violent wife heater capable of murder yet apparently something about the staged crime scene did.

    The way I see it, a staged m/s crime scene is an ultimate despicable act intended to cruelly destroy the reputation of the perceived murderer - in this case Barry. Dead people are unable to defend themselves.

    So if the killer intended to “send a message”, it appears to me to be very spiteful and hateful, quite the opposite to a crime scene staged as a violent home robbery, for example, whereby a couple appear totally innocent of any wrongdoing. JMO
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2021
  3. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    For all we know, the whole thing could have been driven by a desire to destroy in one way or another- the entire family and the people and businesses associated with them.
    speculation, imo.
     
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  4. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    Has there been any evidence written about or referenced that would indicate that the Sherman’s were strangled BEFORE they were tied to the pool railings? Isn’t it possible that the “staging” was simply a method to immobilize the Sherman’s while someone stood in front of them talking to/at them, or searched the house, etc. and then that person strangled them while they were still attached to the railing and left them there? Yes perhaps foot space might have been a bit of an issue if strangled from behind, but the killer could also have stood in front of them as he/she murdered them also.

    It seems to me the assumption here, including me, has always been that they were killed and then dragged to the railing and then tied with the belts to the railing and that was supposed to shame them or make a point to someone who was still alive. . That sounds like a lot of work to me. Maybe the “staging” wasn’t actually staging at all.
     
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  5. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    We've been told there seemed to have been a 'pool of blood' under/near H, to indicate that she'd been bleeding awhile in one spot before being hung onto the railing, but yet no blood dripping onto her upper torso, which apparently indicated that she had been laying nearby before being 'hung up'.

    Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers. She had cuts on her lip and nose, and was sitting in a pool of her own blood when she was discovered. However, there was comparatively little blood apparent on her upper-body clothing, suggesting that she had been face-down on the tile, bleeding, for some time before being bound to the handrail in an upright position, the source said.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rivate-investigators-believe-source-1.4496686
     
  6. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I recall that thanks. But that could have been done to her initially and she was lying on the ground for a bit, maybe until Barry got home. Maybe she was unconscious for a time? Then they could have been attached to the rails. Then murdered. I Don’t recall any reported evidence that indicates that they were murdered before being attached to the railing. There may not have been any staging at all, it’s possible.
     
  7. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    According to how the bodies were positioned, IMO it appeared as if no end-of-life struggle occurred. I don’t want to imagine how but I suppose they could’ve been murdered after being attached to the railing by the belts, then the bodies repositioned both the same sitting side by side, legs outward etc however that repositioning would still meet the definition of staging IMO. From what I’ve read in the topic, autopsies are able to determine between various different means of strangulation dependent on such things as the amount of force applied, location and internal damage in the neck area. But at this point in time we just don’t know all that the death investigation was able to discover.

    JMO
     
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  8. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that the belts may have been used to both immobilize and kill them, and the killer(s) left the belts in place. Maybe there’s no significance.

    I searched, but haven’t found any official source about the belts being used to stage the scene, but here’s what KD wrote in 2018, bbm:

    The Shermans were both strangled with leather belts, then positioned, seated, with the other end of each belt looped around a pool railing, holding them upright. As the Star reported in January, their wrists were tied at some point, but the ropes or ties used were not found at the scene.”Sherman investigation initially focused only on Barry’s wife Honey as a murder victim

    KD goes into more detail in his book:
    78DFFCB6-2393-4C7B-AB1B-62CF11810BA5.png 2D60FF83-B2A1-4753-A6B6-BAA62E25BF1E.png

    As we know, Greenspan said the scene was staged and gave details, then-Chief Saunders admonished him for describing the crime scene.
    Lawyer divulging details of how Sherman bodies were found could impact case: Saunders
     
  9. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    From all accounts we have read, it seems like the people who actually saw the bodies or pics, immediately thought 'murder'. There has to be something to the story that made TPS apparently believe it was M/S. If that is true, then wouldn't the scene have been staged somehow to make them think that? Even if they were killed via hanging by the low pool railing, it seems the killer(s) wanted to make it look like something it wasn't (from what we know so far), but even if the killer didn't intend for it to look like M/S and actually killed them that way, to me it would've taken forethought regarding how the killer wanted them to be seen and found, which to me is still staging. Thoughts?
     
  10. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    I think our VI, KW knows a few details regarding what was staged to make the deaths appear m/s. Didn’t he tell us about a video, Barry allegedly forgetting to shut down the home security system or something like that? Was that the same video given to CBC, I don’t recall other than he claimed a producer was being given some sort of proof of m/s as well. Aside from the repositioning of the bodies, other fabricated evidence such as that would’ve supported what initially appeared a domestic m/s.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
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  11. JDG

    JDG Well-Known Member

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    TorStar article this morning re: Sherman and Epstein cases.
     
  12. nuff

    nuff Well-Known Member

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    What do the mysterious cases of Barry and Honey Sherman and Jeffrey Epstein have in common? A U-shaped neck bone to which too much significance is attached during a death investigation

    For anyone regretting the paywall, you're missing nothing you don't already know about the hyoid bone and strangulation. This article just reinforces my belief that TorStar will use anything as clickbait to keep the sensationalist headlines going.
     
  13. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    IIRC it was stated by someone (Greenspan or TPS?) that they were strangled by something other than the belts. I guess from the marks on their necks, or the type/amount/location of internal damage. I inferred from that statement that that the belts were not the murder weapon, and that they were simply used to hold the bodies upright from the pool railing.
     
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  14. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    From memory, I think that was said initially, but then later, I believe we read they may have been strangled by the belts afterall.

    "The leather belts would qualify as a soft ligature. If pressure was applied firmly but not suddenly, the hyoid would likely not fracture."
    Outline - Read & annotate without distractions
     
  15. WINDSOR

    WINDSOR Well-Known Member

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    The debate if it was M/S or M/M, can and will likely go on forever. At this point in time the TPS is investigating the case as a M/M. Why don't we just go with that until something changes?
     
  16. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    rbbm
    March 16 2021
    What do the mysterious cases of Barry and Honey Sherman and Jeffrey Epstein have in common? A U-shaped neck bone to which too much significance is attached during a death investigation
    ''First, while a man's belt was tied around each of the Sherman necks, it was not what killed them, sources say. The marks of a more narrow ligature- speculation is that it may have been similar to a large ''zip tie'' used to bind wires or pipes- can be seen on each of the Sherman wrists- an indication that they were bound at some point.''

    ''The other factor Chiasson put a great deal of weight on is that the Shermans were in a seated position.
    He determined, sources say, that it would be highly unlikely that a person could die of suicide in that position; not enough weight was applied to the neck.''
     
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  17. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    Years ago some of us guessed that the killer(s) entered the home with zip ties to used them as ligature weapons and restraints.

    It would make sense for the killer(s) to enter into the home with the murder weapons and remove whatever they brought into the house with them.

    Maybe the zip ties could be linked back to the killer(s), and that’s why they removed them from the scene.

    KD said in the part you quoted: ‘to bind wires or pipes’...that seems specific, IMO. It made me think of an electrician, plumber or general construction worker.
     
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  18. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure anyone except the VI is claiming it was a M/S
     
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  19. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    Ok, but those zip ties are widely available at stores like Home Depot in various sizes and colours. In fact I have some myself (and I ain't a killer) :rolleyes:
     
  20. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    I have many different types at home, too. (And I’m also not a killer!)

    But I can think of a few cases where the killer used duct tape or garbage bags in the crime and the forensic teams matched them to the same items in their homes, or purchases they made.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
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