Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[MistyWaters]

Until a portion of the ITOs were released, I don’t recall anything ever said in the media about a 6:21 pm phonecall made by Honey.

“The last phone call Honey made was at 6:21 p.m. on Dec. 13 and preliminary data obtained from her iPhone showed several missed calls on Dec. 14 and Dec. 15.”
It's been 3 years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead. Court documents reveal what we know so far

Adding further thoughts. I’m not convinced it was expected a realtor or even the housekeeper would discover the bodies on the Friday. Purely speculation, I think it was expected to be a family member. I wonder who the missed phone calls were from, if Honey had written anything in her Outlook day timer for the Thursday, if someone had phoned in advance to talk about plans, got no answer, so plans were aborted on the premise she or they must’ve forgotten and were dealing with something of greater urgency.

There’s a lot of media rumble about why the bodies of the Shermans weren’t discovered on the Thursday but really nothing regarding information leading toward any plans made in advance for that day.

JMO

 

[branmuffin]

Yes, I recall that thanks. But that could have been done to her initially and she was lying on the ground for a bit, maybe until Barry got home. Maybe she was unconscious for a time? Then they could have been attached to the rails. Then murdered. I Don’t recall any reported evidence that indicates that they were murdered before being attached to the railing. There may not have been any staging at all, it’s possible.

I think they were already dead when they were propped up by the belts suspended from the railing. When you consider what a belt looks like and the likelihood of being strangled by a belt, it makes sense that the belt is looped through the buckle then pulled tight to asphyxiate the victim.

To suspend someone from the railing using the belt, you would be relying on the dead weight of a deceased person to keep them upright and stationary otherwise they would be struggling making it very difficult for the murderer.

I envision the belt was looped over the railing, secured at the appropriate length then the bodies of the Shermans posed with their chins resting on the leather strap and their weight keeping them upright. I don't know if that is accurate but I don't see them suspended with the belts tightened around their necks.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Rbbm
Do you have a link for that about cancellation of any plans on Thursday? (I’m not trying to be the link police, I’d be interested to read it.)

The only unusual thing that I’ve read about Thursday is that Honey’s PA had Thursday (and Friday) off as she was on vacation. Honey was expected at regular UJA meeting at 8:00 am on Thursday (KD’s ebook pg 14) and Barry was expected at work.

This came from that book, maybe I misread or am not recalling it accurately. It is the PA that I recall was one of the people she specifically cancelled with, that they were surprised she cancelled this just before her trip and everything she had going on.

 

[dotr]

This came from that book, maybe I misread or am not recalling it accurately. It is the PA that I recall was one of the people she specifically cancelled with, that they were surprised she cancelled this just before her trip and everything she had going on.

Maybe thinking of this?
Endless court battles, angry relatives and shady players: the truth about Barry Sherman
''On Dec. 12, 2017, the day before the couple was last seen alive, Honey missed a scheduled meeting at the Baycrest Centre Foundation. Were it any other board member, no one would’ve paid heed, says Josh Cooper, the foundation’s president and CEO. But Honey, a beloved queen bee in the upper echelons of Canadian philanthropy, was known for showing up—or else saying she couldn’t. “It was bizarre,” says Cooper. They sent an email to make sure she was okay. “Honey got back to us right away,” he says. “She said she was dealing with some stuff.”

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Maybe thinking of this?
Endless court battles, angry relatives and shady players: the truth about Barry Sherman
''On Dec. 12, 2017, the day before the couple was last seen alive, Honey missed a scheduled meeting at the Baycrest Centre Foundation. Were it any other board member, no one would’ve paid heed, says Josh Cooper, the foundation’s president and CEO. But Honey, a beloved queen bee in the upper echelons of Canadian philanthropy, was known for showing up—or else saying she couldn’t. “It was bizarre,” says Cooper. They sent an email to make sure she was okay. “Honey got back to us right away,” he says. “She said she was dealing with some stuff.”

Yes. Thank you!

 

[casesensitive]

This came from that book, maybe I misread or am not recalling it accurately. It is the PA that I recall was one of the people she specifically cancelled with, that they were surprised she cancelled this just before her trip and everything she had going on.

Although required media links are not possible when quoting information from KD's book, it is a good idea to list the page number(s) from his book. This will refresh your memory of exactly what was written, and will provide us with a reference. A helpful tip- use the index at the back of his book to search for the subject matter/person and note the page numbers.

 

[MistyWaters]

Maybe thinking of this?
Endless court battles, angry relatives and shady players: the truth about Barry Sherman
''On Dec. 12, 2017, the day before the couple was last seen alive, Honey missed a scheduled meeting at the Baycrest Centre Foundation. Were it any other board member, no one would’ve paid heed, says Josh Cooper, the foundation’s president and CEO. But Honey, a beloved queen bee in the upper echelons of Canadian philanthropy, was known for showing up—or else saying she couldn’t. “It was bizarre,” says Cooper. They sent an email to make sure she was okay. “Honey got back to us right away,” he says. “She said she was dealing with some stuff.”

Yes thank you, the missed meeting was prior to the murders, not after.

Any commitments on Thursday, Dec 14th? If there were it seems neither TPS nor anyone possessing that sort of information blabbed to the media because it involves confidentiality of the investigation.

However we do know a little about that day - the arrival of the mysterious stranger but not who he was or why he was at the Sherman residence, and vague details about the 911 call from down the street.

Paylocked -
Barry and Honey Sherman’s neighbours cite mysterious 911 call, visitor on day before billionaires found dead

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Any commitments on Thursday, Dec 14th? If there were it seems neither TPS nor anyone possessing that sort of information blabbed to the media because it involves confidentiality of the investigation.

Rsbm
Honey was expected to be at an 8:00 am UJA meeting on Thursday.

 

[ldlager]

Rsbm
Honey was expected to be at an 8:00 am UJA meeting on Thursday.

also, I believe the cleaner, plant person, and trainer were evidently regular visitors to the house on fridays, so anyone knowing the Sherman’s schedule would know there would likely be visitors to the house on Friday.

 

[MistyWaters]

Rsbm
Honey was expected to be at an 8:00 am UJA meeting on Thursday.

Thanks! I was thinking about any personal interactions as well, if it was intended for a family member to have discovered the bodies rather than a realtor. If something had been planned in advance at anytime on that Thursday, instead of going directly to the home the family member phoned ahead (want me to pick up some *advertiser censored*? type call), got no answer, presumed the Sherman had forgot about the plan or something urgent had arisen and nobody was home. So the bodies weren’t discovered until the following day.

Purely speculation though as LE is silent about the phone calls on Honey’s phone.

 

[branmuffin]

I found this interesting, from the beginning LE knew this crime was going to be on everyone's lips. While just wrapping up the Toronto serial killer BM case, which they knew they would take heat for.

From KD article
Lead homicide detective in Barry and Honey Sherman case did not go to crime scene on Old Colony Road for four days
KEVIN DONOVAN MARCH 17, 2021

"As uniformed constables secured the perimeter of the 12,000-square-foot Sherman home by tying yellow police tape between bushes and a realtor’s sign, two doctors arrived: Coroner Dr. David Giddens, and forensic pathologist, Dr. Michael Pickup. The then chief of police, Mark Saunders, would later tell reporters that having the pathologist and coroner present at the crime scene was proof of how seriously the police were taking the high-profile investigation. While a coroner would typically go to a suspected crime scene, a forensic pathologist would not, sources say."

The Difference Between a Coroner & a Forensic Pathologist
Amrita Chuasiriporn
Updated September 26, 2017

TV shows and movies seem to use the terms “coroner” and “forensic pathologist” interchangeably. In real life, they’re very different positions. If you work with them, or if you’re considering becoming one or the other, it’s important to know the distinctions between the two. While there can be some overlap in function, the job focus of each position is vastly different.

Coroner
A coroner holds an elected office and may or may not have a medical background. Individual rules regarding background requirements for potential coroners are determined by each jurisdiction, and are variable. Some coroners may have medical backgrounds, while others may have law enforcement backgrounds -- or both. Coroners may also have funeral home backgrounds. A coroner can call for an inquest into the manner of someone’s death. If an individual coroner does not have the medical skills necessary to investigate, she can assign a doctor to examine the body and prepare a report. Coroners may also have certain legal powers depending on the jurisdiction -- including subpoena power.

Forensic Pathologist
Forensic pathologists have strong medical backgrounds, and may or may not be part of law enforcement. They’re also commonly called medical examiners, or MEs. Many times, they’re kept separate from law enforcement to encourage a degree of objectivity in their medical investigations. Most medical examiners are appointed to their positions rather than elected. Many forensic pathologists receive board certification before being appointed to positions.

This portrayal of a coroner in Ontario is not accurate. All coroners in Ontario are medical doctors just as forensic pathologists are.

The explanation above is referring to American distinctions. Coroners are not elected officials in Ontario.

 

[MistyWaters]

This portrayal of a coroner in Ontario is not accurate. All coroners in Ontario are medical doctors just as forensic pathologists are.

The explanation above is referring to American distinctions. Coroners are not elected officials in Ontario.

Yes, apples and oranges to compare elected Coroners in the US to appointed Coroners in Canada.

Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of the Solicitor General
What are coroners?
Coroners are medical doctors with specialized death investigation training, who have been appointed to investigate sudden deaths as mandated by the Coroners Act.

What are pathologists and forensic pathologists?
Pathologists are medical doctors who are experts in disease and injury. Forensic pathologists have further training and are experts in disease and injury that result in sudden death. Pathologists and forensic pathologists are the medical doctors who perform autopsies, when required. Forensic pathologists may also be appointed as coroners to investigate cases of suspicious death.

What is a death investigation?
A death investigation is a process whereby a coroner or forensic pathologist seeks to understand how and why a person died. A coroner or forensic pathologist must answer five questions when investigating a death:

• Who (identity of the deceased)
• When (date of death)
• Where (location of death)
• How (medical cause of death)
• By what means (natural causes, accident, homicide, suicide or undetermined)

Information may be obtained from several sources including, but not limited to family, co-workers, neighbours, doctors, hospital records, police and other emergency service workers. Contact with family is vital as they often have important information that can aid the investigation.

How are police involved?
Police are usually among the first responders at a death scene. Coroners may request police assistance with investigations.

 

[branmuffin]

Yes, apples and oranges to compare elected Coroners in the US to appointed Coroners in Canada.

Common questions about death investigations
What are coroners?
Coroners are medical doctors with specialized death investigation training, who have been appointed to investigate sudden deaths as mandated by the Coroners Act.

What are pathologists and forensic pathologists?
Pathologists are medical doctors who are experts in disease and injury. Forensic pathologists have further training and are experts in disease and injury that result in sudden death. Pathologists and forensic pathologists are the medical doctors who perform autopsies, when required. Forensic pathologists may also be appointed as coroners to investigate cases of suspicious death.
Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of the Solicitor General

I believe some provinces may have individuals who are not actually medical doctors take on the role of coroner. They are never elected officials. But here in Ontario coroners are definitely medical doctors. I should know. I worked in the Forensic Science building on Grosvenor St for 15 years.

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe some provinces may have individuals who are not actually medical doctors take on the role of coroner. They are never elected officials. But here in Ontario coroners are definitely medical doctors. I should know. I worked in the Forensic Science building on Grosvenor St for 15 years.

Yes you’re correct, you if anyone should know! The c/p above refers to the Province of Ontario. Other provinces, including Alberta, use the title of Medical Examiners as opposed to Coroner. But all are regulated under the Federal Coroners Act.

It sometimes surprises me when the general public assume its police who employ doctors or who determine how victims died. The separation of duties between the Provincial Coroners/Medical Examiners Office and all the police forces within each province are important for many reasons.

 

[casesensitive]

The only source of information on this case is from Kevin Donovan. His book provides much more detailed info from his sources that wasn't included in his Toronto Star articles. If you haven't read his book, you would be unaware of his follow up in with gaining trust with sources who were initially unwilling to talk to him.

Believe him and his sources or not--he has provided enough information to answer some of our basic questions about minor details surrounding the murders that some are still questioning. I suggest his book to anyone who is seriously invested in the Sherman case. You can get it on Kindle for $14.99.

Of course you don't need to buy his book. The members who have the book will continue to respond to questions and speculations, bearing in mind that TPS have never released any information.

 

[MistyWaters]

The only source of information on this case is from Kevin Donovan. His book provides much more detailed info from his sources that wasn't included in his Toronto Star articles. If you haven't read his book, you would be unaware of his follow up in with gaining trust with sources who were initially unwilling to talk to him.

Believe him and his sources or not--he has provided enough information to answer some of our basic questions about minor details surrounding the murders that some are still questioning. I suggest his book to anyone who is seriously invested in the Sherman case. You can get it on Kindle for $14.99.

Of course you don't need to buy his book. The members who have the book will continue to respond to questions and speculations, bearing in mind that TPS have never released any information.

When KD solves the homicides and initiates a citizens arrest I sure hope someone will let me know because I don’t intend to buy his book.

 

[branmuffin]

Early on, wayyy early on there were comments, possibly in Toronto Life that Honey 'has sure cleared out a lot of stuff' for the house to be staged. It was a comment from a 'friend' who had been in the home many times.

Anything that they 'valued' or wished to pass on to family would have been removed from the property before it was listed for sale.

I'm sure she had some properties but they were likely joint with BS as he held tight to the purse strings. IMO

The items left in the home were an old fridge and some furniture that no one in the family wanted, so it was disposed of during the demolition, nothing unusual there. IMO

As Billionaires, I'm sure they want for nothing also but lets not begrudge them their inheritance nor judge them as such.

ETA: HS did have a will. She had recently (just before being murdered) made some changes to her will. A new grandchild had just been born and it was suggested that a codicil had been added for said grandchild. Anyhow, she had recently made changes to her will. Strange that it has not been found IMO, MOO, JMO.

When you are selling a seven million dollar home you stage it. You get rid of extra stuff that personalizes it too much. That's so the new owners can envision themselves in the home.

The home was probably looking its best, much more so than during everyday life. Fresh flowers, everything just so. I'm sure the pool had been serviced and was sparkling clear, not a swampy green from disuse.

After the police and the separate private investigators went through the home it was in disarray with personal papers, clothing etc dumped on the floor but almost all furnishings were left in the home including a Subzero fridge, artwork and sculptures.

By the time the home was razed most of the furniture including the figurines that the Shermans imitated in death were destroyed with the home.

 

[branmuffin]

Yes you’re correct, you if anyone should know! The c/p above refers to the Province of Ontario. Other provinces, including Alberta, use the title of Medical Examiners as opposed to Coroner. But all are regulated under the Federal Coroners Act.

It sometimes surprises me when the general public assume its police who employ doctors or who determine how victims died. The separation of duties between the Provincial Coroners/Medical Examiners Office and all the police forces within each province are important for many reasons.

That's why I am sometimes horrified at American cases that appear on WS where the coroner might be the sister of the mayor who worked in the local Piggly Wiggly.

 

[ldlager]

That's why I am sometimes horrified at American cases that appear on WS where the coroner might be the sister of the mayor who worked in the local Piggly Wiggly.

Some of the best coroners in Tennessee got their training at Piggly Wiggly....

Actually, in Ontario as set out in the Coroners Act, you can be appointed a Coroner in Ontario If you are a “legally qualified medical professional”. Interestingly, this term is not defined in the Coroners Act, despite that Act containing a long list of definitions of other words, phrases, and terms.

I searched for the definition in some other Ontario statutes and found many definitions of words and phrases close to the one above. Here is a defined term that I found in the Ontario Employment Standards Act for example ( I recognize it’s not exactly the same term as above).

Qualified Medical Practitioner:
a. A person qualified to qualified to practice as a physician
b. A registered nurse or nurse practitioners
c. A registered psychologist

I found the following quote on the Canadian Society of Forensic Science website
Medical - Canadian Society of Forensic Science

“...In Ontario, coroners are also doctors, but in the rest of Canada, coroners are lay coroners and come from many backgrounds...”.
(My note- it does not say “medical doctors” or something similar. There are many doctors that are not medical doctors).

So it would appear, based on this quote, that some Coroners in Certain provinces in Canada could in fact, as in some US states, be employees of the local grocery store....

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

This portrayal of a coroner in Ontario is not accurate. All coroners in Ontario are medical doctors just as forensic pathologists are.

The explanation above is referring to American distinctions. Coroners are not elected officials in Ontario.

My apologies, I should have looked at that comparison deeper. thank you for the accurate update.