CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #16

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ldlager

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Donovan mentioned that the Shermans’ estate lawyers were Davies Ward Phillips and Vineberg LLP. They’re located downtown on Wellington St., 15 minutes or so south from Yonge and St. Clair where Honey allegedly met the service provider and had that conversation.

There are a number of lawyers connected to this case, there may be some from that area. IMO, Donovan likes dropping clues, this may be one.

This quote from the article you linked stayed with me (bbm):

“The service provider told the homicide detective all of this information. At the end of the interview, the detective asked, “Who do you think did it?”

“That’s your job,” the service provider told the detective.”

(!!!)

I believe that the story was that HS met the service provider midtown or Yonge/Sheppard area (was it near a subway line I recall?). I don't get the impression it was a Davies lawyer. My speculation or belief is the lawyer HS was seeing was the one listed as co-trustee of the Florida condo. He has a family law practice. His office is near the areas I referenced. Speculation on my part because I think there was no HS will, or any lawyer working on one..
 
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ldlager

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Donovan mentioned that the Shermans’ estate lawyers were Davies Ward Phillips and Vineberg LLP. They’re located downtown on Wellington St., 15 minutes or so south from Yonge and St. Clair where Honey allegedly met the service provider and had that conversation.

There are a number of lawyers connected to this case, there may be some from that area. IMO, Donovan likes dropping clues, this may be one.

This quote from the article you linked stayed with me (bbm):

“The service provider told the homicide detective all of this information. At the end of the interview, the detective asked, “Who do you think did it?”

“That’s your job,” the service provider told the detective.”

(!!!)

I believe that the story (from KD's book) was that HS met the service provider midtown or Yonge/Sheppard area (was it near a subway line I recall?). I don't get the impression it was a Davies lawyer. My speculation or belief is, IF there was a lawyer that HS was seeing to prepare a will it was the one listed as co-trustee of the Florida condo. He has a family law practice. His office is near the areas I referenced. Speculation on my part, because I think there was no HS will, or any lawyer working on one. .
 

dotr

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I believe that the story (from KD's book) was that HS met the service provider midtown or Yonge/Sheppard area (was it near a subway line I recall?). I don't get the impression it was a Davies lawyer. My speculation or belief is, IF there was a lawyer that HS was seeing to prepare a will it was the one listed as co-trustee of the Florida condo. He has a family law practice. His office is near the areas I referenced. Speculation on my part, because I think there was no HS will, or any lawyer working on one. .
Yonge/St Clair according to links etc (will talks) on this page..
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13
 

Rush4087

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Thinking about the question: ‘Did Somebody Know Barry and Honey Sherman’s Schedule?’

and recalling from KD’s book: “In the early afternoon, one of Honey’s physical therapists […] is upstairs treating her in the master bedroom”

In Thread #8, post #434, on June 29,
2018, KW said: ‘Coming from Barry’s and Honey’s personal trainer: “Barry was unbelievably strong”’

And then in Thread #10, post #1138 (on Jan 12, 2020), KW said: ‘The Sherman’s personal body trainer is my brother’s best friend’s wife. She told my brother that, “Barry was unbelievably strong for his age”’

So KW’s brother knew the Sherman’s personal trainer. Among others, could the Sherman’s personal trainer (the one KW mentioned) have known the Sherman’s Schedule? Acknowledging that this a big leap - but IF she knew the schedule, wouldn’t it be possible that KW’s brother and /or KW could have obtained the same information?

(I know, a lots of if’s, possibles, and supposing..). Just thinking out loud. All jmo
 

MistyWaters

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Thinking about the question: ‘Did Somebody Know Barry and Honey Sherman’s Schedule?’

and recalling from KD’s book: “In the early afternoon, one of Honey’s physical therapists […] is upstairs treating her in the master bedroom”

In Thread #8, post #434, on June 29,
2018, KW said: ‘Coming from Barry’s and Honey’s personal trainer: “Barry was unbelievably strong”’

And then in Thread #10, post #1138 (on Jan 12, 2020), KW said: ‘The Sherman’s personal body trainer is my brother’s best friend’s wife. She told my brother that, “Barry was unbelievably strong for his age”’

So KW’s brother knew the Sherman’s personal trainer. Among others, could the Sherman’s personal trainer (the one KW mentioned) have known the Sherman’s Schedule? Acknowledging that this a big leap - but IF she knew the schedule, wouldn’t it be possible that KW’s brother and /or KW could have obtained the same information?

(I know, a lots of if’s, possibles, and supposing..). Just thinking out loud. All jmo

I’d be certain the Shermans had absolutely no idea that one of their employees was closely connected to KW.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-cousin-1.4514176
“Winter told The Fifth Estate he was going public now with the allegations because he wanted to "hurt" Barry Sherman's legacy.

Winter and his siblings had been locked in a protracted, decade-long lawsuit launched in 2007 seeking a piece of the Apotex fortune. Last September, an Ontario Superior Court judge dismissed the case as "fanciful." The cousins have since appealed.

"I was betrayed. My cousin hurt me, and now I want to hurt him," Winter told The Fifth Estate.

As part of the court's decision, Winter not only lost his claim on his cousin's fortune, but he was also ordered to pay Sherman back $8 million. Just a week before the Shermans were found dead, a court ordered Winter and his siblings to pay Sherman $300,000 in legal costs…..

…….On the advice of his lawyer, Winter also declined to take a lie detector test on the question of whether he killed the Shermans.

Winter admits he could be seen as a suspect in the Sherman killings.

"I probably had reasons to lash out to do the dirty deed," he told The Fifth Estate's Bob McKeown. "I had nothing to do with it. I don't know who did it." …..

……Winter says no one can verify where he was at all times on Dec. 13, the day Barry and Honey Sherman were last seen alive.

"No, no alibi," he told The Fifth Estate. He said after a Cocaine Anonymous meeting, he went home and fell asleep….

…….Arntfield, who is also a former major crimes police officer, says Winter's story will be of interest to the police.

"He needs to be properly cleared before moving on to other people, I would say."…..”
 

Bobbi Pearl

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I’d be certain the Shermans had absolutely no idea that one of their employees was closely connected to KW.

I am not sure I could agree with that, they were very trusting of almost everyone, with very minimal security as an example. By all appearances, you had to lose their trust- not win it. If this person were assisting Honey for years, possibly decades, they may have met them through a - at the time - trusted extended family member - or maybe she met her husband through Sherman's connection to KW?

To me, KW has always sounded like a grieving person in a desperate situation. He came across angry that he can no longer fight his cousin for what he feels is partially his family legacy, if he was alive there was always a chance they could convince him otherwise, they knew he was such a giving person in the past and was capable of changing his mind and coming to an amicable decision. With Barry gone, KW could only vent his disappointment and as he was quoted above, wanted to tarnish his reputation and let his family feel the same pain he feels his family is suffering.

I would be surprised if Barry or Honey for that matter was afraid of KW in any fashion, they had been litigating for 10 years and still did not feel the need to up security.

So... Brings me back to the question: Who had feelings similar to KW (- wanting to make fun of, or tarnish the reputation of B&H - the killer(s) staged the bodies not necessarily was the scene staged but the bodies were "arranged" in specific positions, referencing art made from recycled trash.)

But would benefit from them no longer alive. (I believe they were both intended targets of the - well-timed and planned invasion and attack- no clue as to the motive or if death was the intent)

Knowing what was in the will or not most anyone wanting Barry's money would not kill them both off, most anyone would assume he would leave it to his immediate family. With that said, one of the children could be being blackmailed by someone today or have a large debt to be paid or someone is planning to blackmail one of the beneficiaries and knew that if the parents were gone they would end up with access to all that money and they could be controlled by this someone.

The crime scene details we have been privy to learn, describe clues of;

Immediate confrontation upon entry to the home - had cold weather coats still on ?? possibly shoes as well?? Honey phone in the front powder room near her entryway, Barry dropped what was in his hands at his entryway (I think they? were already in the home when Honey arrived home)
Anger / Force- Honey was cut and bled. (if they had a gun or knife to control her would there be a need to harm her in this manner? Or was she hurt here and they grabbed her in the powder room?)
Control - mobility of arms restricted with own winter coat. (or were their hands tied up and when ties were removed they tried to remove the clothing and it was too much effort with the weight of the body and they gave up and left them in similar view with a partially removed coat)
Autopsy show wrists have impressions of twist ties but now found on the scene. - coats were not enough to immobilize them, they needed more control of their hand movements (no reports that ankles were tied as well)
No signs of forced entry

What else can we determine and what could it tell us?
 

MistyWaters

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I doubt Barry was afraid of KW. But as the Shermans were private people I’d be shocked if either of them would welcome details of their personal lives being shared with someone who voiced revengeful threats. But still, it would appear the reverse might be true, KW’s motive for these sorts of public interviews while Barry was still alive was obviously intended to create fear. That same deep level of animosity hasn’t lessened when KW appeared on the 5th Estate show (re-my quote above). IMO.

July, 2008
How Barry Sherman built his multibillion-dollar fortune
“Kerry winter admits that for many years Sherman was “like a surrogate dad and I was like an adopted son.” Now, perhaps because he feels most betrayed, he leads his family litigation and, going against his legal advice, feeds stories to the press. His lawyers told him not to talk to me, and for more than a year we communicated like spies. He would secretly transmit documents if I promised not to tell Kronby. He’d call me with various rants: “For me it isn’t about shekels, it’s about revenge!” Dozens of emails passed between us. He accused me of falling for “Sherman’s spin” if I hesitated before contacting people he recommended….

……He rapped his knuckles on the table and leaned in close. He vowed he’d be Sherman’s “nemesis,” saying that for him this was “a lifelong mission.”…”
 
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Lexiintoronto

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Here is another deviation off-topic, but it concerns Apotex, so it may be significant in a way. For a year now I've been on prescription pills I take two, twice a day. A 3-month supply costs over $1000, plus dispensing fee, but my senior's government coverage knocks that down to $4.11, or I would certainly not be taking them. I just picked up another batch and it was $775 + dispensing fee (I paid $4.11). The pills are made by Apotex, so I hate to imagine how much they would be from Big Pharma. But the fact there was such a price drop under the new management makes me wonder how these prices are set. No wonder Barry Sherman was a billionaire.

You wrote you noticed the price-drop recently, so I’m not sure if this is related as it was from 2018, but I remembered this interesting post from @anonymess :
Summary/Opinion piece on big change to Canadian generic drug industry on CBC:
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/health/second-opinion-february-3-2018-1.4517468

Excerpts:
"Some generic prescription drugs just got a lot cheaper for everyone*— and the actual prices are no longer a secret."

"'Just the threat of tendering made all generics manufacturers get together and say 'OK we agree to reduce prices by 38 per cent across the board,' said Gagnon."
---
From what I could google, QC started this wave of cheaper prices this summer; not, say, in December, so it's probably not a factor in these murders at first glance. However, I'm just throwing it in here to show profits will probably take a hit at the generic companies.

Maybe some others here can tell us if that might make competition even more cut throat? Or lead to a desire for mergers?

Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6
 

WINDSOR

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So the wait continues.
Some have postulated that KW could have some involvement in the murders, especially since a motive seems to have existed.
I am not sure he had the financial or logistical resources to undertake such a effort.
MOO
 

Rush4087

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So the wait continues.
Some have postulated that KW could have some involvement in the murders, especially since a motive seems to have existed.
I am not sure he had the financial or logistical resources to undertake such a effort.
MOO
I don’t think the effort (undertaken by whoever murdered the Sherman’s) necessarily required any financial resources, and probably required very few logistical ones: just be in the house before HS got home (which meant knowing their schedule), bring zip ties, and wear gloves. Jmo
 
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Bobbi Pearl

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So the wait continues.
Some have postulated that KW could have some involvement in the murders, especially since a motive seems to have existed.
I am not sure he had the financial or logistical resources to undertake such a effort.
MOO

I wondered if KW was partially the reason the immediate family was afraid and uncertain in the first few days and immediately sought the privacy of any personal information. The rest of the world's prying eyes may not have even been the reason for the request for privacy.

IMO if KW had been involved in any way he would not have been able to keep it quiet this long, to not spill a telling clue when he was speaking to any media outlet that would listen, if he was part of a "group" of people involved, I assume he would have been silenced - due to overdose/suicide or an accident of course - they could not have a loose cannon flapping gums and incriminating someone.

My thoughts still wonder if JS is somehow messed up in this as it is reported his family has distanced themselves from him, but we must remember everyone grieves differently, men and women especially, some try to be stoic and look tough, hold it all in, others do not care what people think and will allow the emotions to release. Remember JS father figure who he learned unconsciously from, from friends and family reports, Barry was somewhat emotionless, he looked at everything in the same matter-of-fact way, he did not know how to teach JS to feel sympathy, regret, as he did not himself. It is difficult to blame JS for his publically perceived indifferent attitude, I assume this grew over time and was a defense mechanism to deal with a parent that did not understand the feeling of emotions, only saw things as simple facts that emotions did not change the outcome of.
 

MistyWaters

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I wondered if KW was partially the reason the immediate family was afraid and uncertain in the first few days and immediately sought the privacy of any personal information. The rest of the world's prying eyes may not have even been the reason for the request for privacy.

IMO if KW had been involved in any way he would not have been able to keep it quiet this long, to not spill a telling clue when he was speaking to any media outlet that would listen, if he was part of a "group" of people involved, I assume he would have been silenced - due to overdose/suicide or an accident of course - they could not have a loose cannon flapping gums and incriminating someone.

My thoughts still wonder if JS is somehow messed up in this as it is reported his family has distanced themselves from him, but we must remember everyone grieves differently, men and women especially, some try to be stoic and look tough, hold it all in, others do not care what people think and will allow the emotions to release. Remember JS father figure who he learned unconsciously from, from friends and family reports, Barry was somewhat emotionless, he looked at everything in the same matter-of-fact way, he did not know how to teach JS to feel sympathy, regret, as he did not himself. It is difficult to blame JS for his publically perceived indifferent attitude, I assume this grew over time and was a defense mechanism to deal with a parent that did not understand the feeling of emotions, only saw things as simple facts that emotions did not change the outcome of.

KW has consistently insisted Barry was solely responsible for the deaths of both of them, while dancing on their graves in glee. What’s to keep quiet about as according to him, no outside party was responsible for the murders?
 

Bobbi Pearl

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KW has consistently insisted Barry was solely responsible for the deaths of both of them, while dancing on their graves in glee. What’s to keep quiet about as according to him, no outside party was responsible for the murders?

playing devil's advocate here only:

Well if KW were to be involved he would want LE to believe it was murder-suicide like "he" had attempted to stage it to appear, then no one would be arrested and he may have gotten sympathy from the kids - but they too cut him off immediately it appears. Thus all his venting/talking about it to media and LE - if he were involved I believe he would have let something slip, something only the person who had seen them in the staged position may know - that the perp thinks would further lead to the suicide explanation and the LE must see it that way. As I recall most of his "evidence" was discredited or considered his own hearsay.
 

nuff

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Remember JS father figure who he learned unconsciously from, from friends and family reports, Barry was somewhat emotionless, he looked at everything in the same matter-of-fact way, he did not know how to teach JS to feel sympathy, regret, as he did not himself. It is difficult to blame JS for his publically perceived indifferent attitude,

I do not agree that feeling and/or displaying emotions are entirely a learned behaviour. Plus, we have no idea what BS was like in private with his family. It's possible, but it's equally possible JS comes across as indifferent because he is.
 

Rush4087

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KW has consistently insisted Barry was solely responsible for the deaths of both of them, while dancing on their graves in glee. What’s to keep quiet about as according to him, no outside party was responsible for the murders?

But it would seem that KW would be “dancing on their graves in glee” whether the deaths were deemed a m-s or a double homicide. He even suggested as much in the 1/31/2018 DM article: ‘Either way he (BS) had a terrible end. He either killed his wife and hung himself or he was targeted and Honey was punched out in front of him’.

But in the bigger picture one might wonder if (in the DM article) KW wasn’t just trying to convince the interviewer / reader (and possibly himself?) that the two scenarios were equally satisfying to him - because in nearly every other interview before and since it has seemed incredibly important to him that the deaths be ruled a m-s. I think it is reasonable to ask why this is so.

Is it perhaps because if LE were to declare the deaths a m-s, any and all investigations into a targeted double homicide would end?

It’s obvious who would benefit from ending any and all investigations into a targeted double homicide: the killer(s). Is KW trying to protect somebody? Why else would he care whether it was m-s or targeted double homicide? Does he know, or suspect he might know, who the killer is? It sure makes you wonder. Jmo
 
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MistyWaters

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But it would seem that KW would be “dancing on their graves in glee” whether the deaths were deemed a m-s or a double homicide. He even suggested as much in the 1/31/2018 DM article: ‘Either way he (BS) had a terrible end. He either killed his wife and hung himself or he was targeted and Honey was punched out in front of him’.

But in the bigger picture one might wonder if (in the DM article) KW wasn’t just trying to convince the interviewer / reader (and possibly himself?) that the two scenarios were equally satisfying to him - because in nearly every other interview before and since it has seemed incredibly important to him that the deaths be ruled a m-s. I think it is reasonable to ask why this is so.

Is it perhaps because if LE were to declare the deaths a m-s, any and all investigations into a targeted double homicide would end?

It’s obvious who would benefit from ending any and all investigations into a targeted double homicide: the killer(s). Is KW trying to protect somebody? Why else would he care whether it was m-s or targeted double homicide? Does he know, or suspect he might know, who the killer is? It sure makes you wonder. Jmo

Frankly, it’s astounding to me that anyone would declare something such as this following a double murder for any reason. The deceased victims have no voice and therefore cannot defend themselves, yet KW voices his intent to hurt a dead person? One’s legacy includes surviving family members, more so the children have also expressed intent to carry on their parent’s legacy. Where does it end?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-cousin-1.4514176
“Winter told The Fifth Estate he was going public now with the allegations because he wanted to "hurt" Barry Sherman's legacy.…

…….I was betrayed. My cousin hurt me, and now I want to hurt him," Winter told The Fifth Estate…”
 
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Bobbi Pearl

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I do not agree that feeling and/or displaying emotions are entirely a learned behaviour. Plus, we have no idea what BS was like in private with his family. It's possible, but it's equally possible JS comes across as indifferent because he is.
So true we do not know any of these people or what they are like in private, only what we see "reported, released" to the public.

to clarify my thought,

Feeling or displaying emotions is not the learned behavior I meant, but as a child growing up and dealing with someone who does not show those traits, you learn behavior in how to deal with them and still receive the outcome you are hoping for. Commonly in families, you have one more strict parent, and then the parent you go to when you really want a yes. In this family as the reports we have read, both parents were reasonably tough, very hard and dedicated workers, community members, and not overly extravagant with their children when they were young. BS&HS both suffered from life circumstances as young children and lead above it with hard work, the same they expected from the children.

But BS is reported to have been that "easier" parent, the really smart one with a really high IQ and matter of fact guy, which we assume JS is not, JS may be book/school smart and is more aware of his feelings and emotions but from the disagreements, we have read about they did not think in the same manner about business.
 
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Bobbi Pearl

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But it would seem that KW would be “dancing on their graves in glee” whether the deaths were deemed a m-s or a double homicide. He even suggested as much in the 1/31/2018 DM article: ‘Either way he (BS) had a terrible end. He either killed his wife and hung himself or he was targeted and Honey was punched out in front of him’.

But in the bigger picture one might wonder if (in the DM article) KW wasn’t just trying to convince the interviewer / reader (and possibly himself?) that the two scenarios were equally satisfying to him - because in nearly every other interview before and since it has seemed incredibly important to him that the deaths be ruled a m-s. I think it is reasonable to ask why this is so.

Is it perhaps because if LE were to declare the deaths a m-s, any and all investigations into a targeted double homicide would end?

It’s obvious who would benefit from ending any and all investigations into a targeted double homicide: the killer(s). Is KW trying to protect somebody? Why else would he care whether it was m-s or targeted double homicide? Does he know, or suspect he might know, who the killer is? It sure makes you wonder. Jmo

IMO
KW just wants to tarnish both of their reputations, M/S is a horrible and very disrespectful last act.

The comment "He either killed his wife and hung himself or he was targeted and Honey was punched out in front of him’." made me think he did not know how to compute the information and form an answer to a new piece of information released to the public (he was put on the spot) and all he showed was his anger toward both of them, ( must add that KW and BS once had a very close relationship, the amount of anger KW carries most likely reflects the amount of love lost and anger is not an uncommon grieving reaction).
 

MistyWaters

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Snipped to reply , ( must add that KW and BS once had a very close relationship, the amount of anger KW carries most likely reflects the amount of love lost and anger is not an uncommon grieving reaction).

I disagree. It’s quite clear the relationship was never about love, it was all about money. The bitter feud - the billion dollar lawsuit - was ongoing for many more years than any “very close relationship”. We’re not talking anger at the loss of a loved one, KW expressed his hatred and the two emotions are definitely not synonymous.

I did everything I could to help them,” Sherman said during a sworn cross-examination last May, just seven months before he and Honey were killed. “I don’t think anyone else in his right mind would have done for them what I did.”…

……..Speaking to Maclean’s, Kerry insists he had nothing to do with the slayings. “I admit that I have utter disdain and hatred for Barry Sherman,” he says. “He wronged me. He didn’t honour my father. He didn’t honour the option. He pulled a sleaze move. He stopped visiting me. He lied to me. He betrayed me. I have every reason to hate this man, but I had nothing to do with their demise.”…..”
Endless court battles, angry relatives and shady players: the truth about Barry Sherman
 
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