CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #16

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by dotr, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Tobiano8th

    Tobiano8th Well-Known Member

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    I said "accomplice" was plausible as one of hundred's of theories....... saying something is plausible and saying that I believe it's one of my leading theories are 2 separate things

    why did TPS go with M/S for so long when it was "so obvious" that wasn't the case?

    could someone answer that for me? plz..... incompetence? I find that hard to believe. I would think based on TPD "incompetence" of this magnitude that all convicted murderers from Toronto would have a reasonable basis for an appeal. something made them think it was M/S. and none of us were there.
     
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  2. Tobiano8th

    Tobiano8th Well-Known Member

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    DOUBLE POST
     
  3. WINDSOR

    WINDSOR Well-Known Member

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    I got mod-snipped, because I went off-topic, my bad. It had nothing to do with my criticism of the M/S theory. I think the moderators are very reasonable and are not restrictive.
     
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  4. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Rbsbm.
    Hope not, lol!
     
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  5. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    That “TPS went with a M/S theory for so long” has been repeated so often it’s become an urban myth flying in the face of information later released, specifically police statements supported by information released in the ITOs. Double suicide, murder/suicide and double homicide were all considered during the early days of that six week investigation. Anonymous leaks to the media, allegedly from police sources, are not official police statements.

    If the crime scene was staged as M/S it’s highly possible TPS equally staged the anonymous leak as an investigative tactic in order to identify possible suspects who were eager to lead them further down the M/S path. I don’t know if you’ve followed other similar police strategy cases here on WS but the upcoming Sementelli trial is an example of how LE released a knowingly staged CCTV video of alleged knock-knock gang members at the same time as the victim’s wife and boyfriends were already strong suspects. The obvious reason is because it’s to the advantage of police to allow the perpetrators to believe the staging is successful in misleading the death investigation - aka the intended purpose of staging.

    Furthermore I don’t understand how a M/S theory can be supported by “an assistant” because by definition suicide is the act of one taking their own life. The assistance of a 2nd party is no longer suicide - in our country it’s considered murder unless preauthorized by the court under a doctor’s supervision (Legally Assisted Suicide). In my opinion it’s very wrong, if not totally despicable, to insinuate someone is not committing a serious crime with no legal repercussions by killing another person, even under the premise they asked to be helped to die.

    It can be said we all die eventually but a murderer who viciously kills might believe they are merely “helping or assisting” in causing that the death of their victims before their time has come. There’s absolutely no room for kindness, nor favours, associated with a homicide. JMO
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
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  6. tayaway

    tayaway Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the confusion, my comment was in response directly to @Rush4087 's comment before it was edited (and modsnipped), not you or the mods.
     
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  7. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    I was curious as to who everyone might believe is behind the Sherman murders so I made a poll here:
    Poll about the Sherman case

    There’s an option for ‘m/s’ or ‘other’ as well.
     
  8. Tobiano8th

    Tobiano8th Well-Known Member

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    wow....... that is soft on the TPD....... "google is your friend"

    Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca

    Q: Toronto police never said publicly that they believed the case was a murder-suicide, though they talked about “no forced entry” and no search for suspects. You write that police sources continued to tell reporters privately that murder-suicide was the working theory, which inflamed the Shermans’ family and friends. Yet there were also reports that both Barry and Honey Sherman were found with their coats pulled back behind them, which would immobilize arm movements—and rule out murder-suicide. How could police even consider it a murder-suicide?
    A: I can’t speak for Toronto police. But, as I understand it, the coats were pulled down but not enough to immobilize them. There’s also the detail about marks found on their wrists indicative of them being bound together; but those ties are removed and cannot be found. I struggle with this. How could you look at that scene and not think this was a case of double murder? The other thing I spend a lot of time trying to figure out was that [the Shermans] were in a seated position on the floor, their backs to the pool. There’s no way you could strangle yourself sitting upright like that. It’s different than jumping from a stool, like we’ve seen in the movies. There’s no fall here. So, in my opinion, there can be no murder-suicide or double-suicide.

    Person of interest identified in murders of Barry and Honey Sherman, Toronto police confirm

    Police sources initially said the prevalent theory in the case was that it was a murder-suicide. But, about six weeks after their bodies were found, homicide detectives confirmed they believed the couple was targeted and killed.


    Private investigation of billionaire murders in Canada comes to end

    The founder of generic drugmaker Apotex and his wife, Honey, were found dead in their Toronto mansion on Dec. 15, 2017. The two were found hanging by belts from a railing that surrounds their indoor pool and were in a semi-seated position on the pool deck. Police initially said the deaths were suspicious, but said there were no signs of forced entry and they were not looking for suspects.
    The day after, some media outlets quoted unidentified police officials as saying the deaths appeared to be a murder-suicide. That upset the couple's four adult children, who hired their own team of investigators.
     
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  9. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Google will find nowhere an official TPS source declaring M/S was only investigated for the first few weeks.

    And since when is someone “assisting” in another person’s death considered a suicide? Even mercy killing is a criminal act, known as murder in Canada.

    No one has yet been charged for the murders of Barry and Homey Sherman. If the perpetrator wants to enter a trial defence such as he was just doing his good buddy a favour that’s his prerogative. Meanwhile it seems totally futile to be here inventing presumptuous excuses for an unknown killer/s without being privy to any evidence in order for homicide victims can be blamed for direct involvement in their murders?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2021
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  10. Bobbi Pearl

    Bobbi Pearl Well-Known Member

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    Like MistyWaters I am not sure that they ever actually said that to the press, day 1 it was the report of no suspect, no signs of forced entry to start, the media took it and made headlines of what they surmised from chatting with patrol policemen, not detectives or coroners who arrived later and will not share any information when asked.

    I am not saying LE did not correct the inference and let the public believe what they are reading, but LE did their job they determined this was not a public threat, no other information or details are legally expected from LE. So they just keep quiet, media can "report" whatever they want, unless it affects an investigation LE will say nothing to correct media potential rubbish, that is not their job, that is the CRTC's job, and I do not see them taking much action against "fake news" or correcting "narrative".

    Note: The CRTC is an independent public authority in charge of regulating and supervising Canadian broadcasting and telecommunications.

    I still think the media and LE have relationships, maybe similar to the British Royal family, one is never totally in control of the other but they rely on each other to "push" a narrative or weed out criminals with "leaked" information.

    Maybe LE let the M/S theory go on so fewer eyes were on them to dig deeper into "things", maybe let the culprits think they are off "scott free".

    It often shocks me that the public really thinks that the TPS is not a group of intelligent investigators and could not figure this out because they made a summation and decision on day one of a crime and messed it up forever.

    If we look at many of the cold cases in the GTA alone, LE does not share what info they have - period. 10 years, 20 years, or 70 years later still not our business to know the nitty-gritty. Even if they believe they have a suspect and they are dead. We read and re-read articles about a case and years later the stories are reported a little different, not the exact same place etc. LE are not reporting which one is accurate.

    So why should we expect LE to release to the public any rebuttals to media press releases, that may be inaccurate that may give away some of their investigations.

    Maybe our questions regarding the early summation and formed the opinion that made the headlines of M/S so quickly be brought up to the CRTC to review for the validity of all the facts the media/ reporters had that enabled them to report this as fact?

    We can talk and blame LE for forming an immediate opinion until we are blue in the face, they still will not ever discuss it, they are doing their jobs and that is to investigate all of the facts and bring to the courts the individual(s) that are responsible for the crime - it is the courts and criminal justice that has the responsibility to decide if this person is truly guilty of the crime, not police or the media.

    Edit to add, it is LE responsibility to determine if a crime has been committed as well, with a murder + anything, it is a crime and thus why they continued to investigate as a crime.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
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  11. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    “In the early stages of the investigation, police considered three possible outcomes in the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman, including a double suicide, a double homicide, and a murder-suicide in which Barry killed his wife and then ended his own life.

    In one document submitted to the court in December 2017, police noted that while the murder-suicide theory was still on the table, there was no evidence to suggest that Barry’s death was a suicide as he appeared “to have led a fulfilling life, with no mental health issues or illness.”

    They went on to say that there were “no domestic-related occurrences” filed with Toronto police and the couple had planned to take trips together in the near future, including the trip to Florida and an upcoming visit to Japan.

    The police also noted that they were also in the process of “breaking ground and building a $20 million home.”

    In interviews with the police, the couple’s children and friends strongly denied any suggestion that Barry was capable of harming Honey or that either of them would die by suicide….”
    It's been 3 years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead. Court documents reveal what we know so far
     
  12. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    On day 1 the police publicly stated and were quoted by numerous reporters that they had no suspects and that there was no threat to the public or the community (or words to that effect). They could not possibly have known that the second part of that statement was true at that time. I suspect that every one of the Sherman’s neighbours took ZERO comfort from that statement, and in fact all were likely understandably very concerned for their safety.
    I do not share your views on the capabilities of the TPS to solve this case, and I fear they just missed too much early on. I wish I felt differently, but there have been too many question marks in this and other cases. Even the family’s investigative team very publicly detailed alleged deficiencies in the police investigation of the crime scene. What possible motive could there have been for Greenspan eat al to air these allegations? By doing so the PI team certainly potentially aided in the defence of whoever is charged with these crimes. Assuming of course that some will be charged....
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
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  13. Bobbi Pearl

    Bobbi Pearl Well-Known Member

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    I agree no one felt safe with that statement, but it was what LE was responsible to evaluate and report to the public. That is all, the rest is not for public consumption, potentially until the investigation is closed.

    You may be correct and I would be surprised that the largest most populated city in our province would not have some of the most intelligent detectives available to them. It is hard to form a judgement that someone (or a whole police force) is inept at their job when part of their job is secrecy, to not share information. We have privacy laws and they work very hard not to cross those.

    I believe it is our frustration that we cannot confirm or deny critical details of the murders and hence we blame LE for the lack of answers. To me, that is like a rock and a hard place, darned if you do and darned if you don't.

    Lawyers are known to arrogantly puff their chests and act as if they are the most educated on a subject and therefore their theory is correct. How does this team know what LE collected as evidence? IMO Greenspan and his team were disappointed that "respect" and the sharing of information was not a two-way street and they in no way were swaying/controlling / or part of discussions and the direction of the investigation where they (family maybe) wanted it to go.

    The "motive" could be as simple as arrogance, or to poke the bear / shake the tree and see if they could learn anything more, get LE defensive and share more info. Greenspan and his team had months to create a response and all they did was deflect to LE and leave the investigation blaming the police that they the best in the field could not figure it out either. Saving credibility could be another motive.

    - Just thinking out loud, not necessarily are these all my formed theories or opinions.
     
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  14. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    This “no threat” criticism seems to arise virtually every time police speak about a homicide, as if it’s expected LE could possibly assure everyone they’re safe from becoming a victim of crime forever. As we’ve seen from time to time in the news more recently, if there’s an active threat LE inform the public of the location, generally place barricades requesting vehicle traffic to avoid the area and ask people in the immediate area remain indoors or seek cover in their basement. With the Sherman homicides it would’ve been very obvious the killing hadn’t occurred minutes prior to the 911 call, such as in situations with a rogue gunman being sought by LE. It’s also true LE had publicly identified no suspects, not even yet. The standard words you quote have become meaningless to any insinuation - at the time an autopsy hadn’t even been completed. As I recall, putting it in into context, at the time neighbour’s had asked if they should take their families to a motel for safety. Without divulging details of the crime scene, Price’s answers were all truthful. In fact he consistently referred to the deaths as “suspicious” and certainly never said it was believed no foul play had occurred.

    “But to date, no arrests have been made and no suspects have been publicly identified.”
    It's been 3 years since Barry and Honey Sherman were found dead. Court documents reveal what we know so far
     
  15. casesensitive

    casesensitive Well-Known Member

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    rsbm

    It isn't urban myth, and the information released in court documents prove it.

    I have the greatest respect for homicide investigators, but there are cases when I can't defend how they handled their investigation. Sometimes they screw up, and sadly, I feel that it has been proven in this case for many reasons, let alone based on their court requested warrants and production orders that only named Honey as being a homicide victim.

    People can try to blame the media (Kevin Donovan) and accuse them of being false news hacks, and they can try to explain away what Brandon Price said at the murder scene, but they can't ignore the release of court documents that prove that TPS were only focused on M/S for a month after the start of the investigation.

    It is understood and accepted by the public that LE do not release information in a murder case. We all know that. I don't see what that has to do with any criticism of TPS.

    The explanation in defense of TPS that they went with the M/S to make the perp feel he got away with it totally contradicts their working theory per their court requests for warrants and production orders, as listed below.

    -The Toronto police were investigating the murder of just Honey Sherman — not Barry and Honey — for almost a full month after the couple’s strangled bodies were found in their home, search warrant documents reveal.

    -Despite the visible evidence at the crime scene, documents filed in support of the first search warrants and production orders show that police believed that Honey Sherman alone was the victim of a crime.

    -On Dec. 20, 2017, five days after the bodies were discovered, Toronto police first sought a search warrant and two “production orders,” stating that “Honey Sherman was the victim of a Murder Section 235 (1) of the Criminal Code of Canada.” Barry Sherman’s name is not mentioned. That section of the Criminal Code covers both first-degree (premeditated) and second-degree murder.

    -The next series of warrants — four in total — were granted by a judge on Jan. 10. A document filed with the warrant, describing the investigation, reveals that police still considered the murder victim to be Honey Sherman, not Barry and Honey Sherman.

    -The final series of judicial authorizations known to the Star were issued by a judge on Feb. 15, 2018. The four production orders were issued by the police in an investigation, that for the first time in the series of court orders, states that “unknown person (s) between December 13th, 2017 and December 15th, 2017” did “murder Bernard Sherman and Honey Sherman.”

    Sherman investigation initially focused only on Barry’s wife Honey as a murder victim
     
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  16. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    See my post #471 above which refutes m/s only being investigated according to TPS.

    I’ve never understood how KD thinks he making a valid point to prove anything. Naturally if the stated warrants were for Honey’s cellphone or Airmiles or whatever, whether or not her husband was murdered is immaterial to obtaining records held in her name only. It’s not required for TPS to write a full scenario about why the information is required - Honey was murdered and the accounts were in her name. We now know the search of Barry’s office was delayed in Court, KD conveniently neglected to update his reporting that everything mentioned Honey’s name only.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
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  17. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    Day #1325 and no arrests or charges, no new pleas for new info from the police, and maybe 1 detective on the case. Sigh.
     
  18. WINDSOR

    WINDSOR Well-Known Member

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    The police know that the perpetrators in this case are not likely to kill again, so there is no great sense of urgency to file charges. In fact as time goes by, the TPS are gathering more evidence to prove their case. Even if we would like this case to move along towards the laying of charges and a trial, the TPS are in no hurry.

    Since there is a possibility the actual killers are not in a country with an extradition treaty with Canada, even if the TPS know who they are, they will not ever come to trial.
     
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  19. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Not likely to kill again, unless the perps actually are hired hit- men/women/persons! imo.:eek:

    2018
    WARMINGTON: Billionaire Shermans slain by contract killers? | Toronto Sun
     
  20. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    A cold case officer talking about another murder said the key to solving that case would be a change in relationships or a progression in science. He thinks there was an accomplice or confidant who protected the killer at the time of the murder, and they may now be estranged.

    One person I suspect in the Sherman case is friends with a family member. I think if something happens and that friendship falls apart, one of them may kill the other.
     
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