CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #16

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by dotr, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    A followup of sorts, hoping nobody has to deal with any of this kind of ridiculous behavior.
    It has never come into question iirc, if similar sentiments had any link to the murders..
    imo, speculation.rbbm.
    Toronto Police Service :: News Release #50928
    Sept 13 2021
    ''This year's Jewish Holiday Yom Kippur falls on Wednesday, September 15 and Thursday, September 16, 2021.

    The Toronto Police Service is partnering with the UJA in support of an outdoor reporting area located at Bathurst Street and Lawrence Avenue West. The reporting area will be staffed by UJA members.

    The reporting area will allow members of the Jewish community to report to our community safety partners any suspicious or criminal events which may have been observed or experienced in the neighbourhood or when walking to and from prayer services.

    The Toronto Police Service is committed to keeping all of our communities safe.

    The Reporting Centre hours of operation will be from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m. on Wednesday, September 15, 2021, and on Thursday, September 16, 2021 from 12 p.m. to 3 p.m. and 7 p.m. to 10 p.m.''
     


  2. Bobbi Pearl

    Bobbi Pearl Well-Known Member

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    I was re-reading some old articles from the first 2 years of investigating and saw the articles on autopsies. Whenever "autopsies" are mentioned I always think about the Jewish religion and their beliefs in death.

    When the family asked for a 2nd to be done that must have been an excruciating decision to make.

    An interesting detail I read from the below "hospital patient" procedures link below:

    "The family may request that the body be lowered to the floor with the body facing Jerusalem."

    Now I want to know if that is how they were seated - facing Jerusalem?

    https://www.nygh.on.ca/data/2/rec_docs/229_Jewish_Procedures.pdf
     
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  3. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    That’s an interesting consideration of the positioning of the bodies by the killers.

    I know previously we’ve looked at that window being left open, and them being next to a source of water (and other factors) and how those things tie into the Jewish faith.

    Was the killer themselves Jewish? Or religious in general, and aware of Jewish customs?

    One theory I think is possible is that this was done by someone close to the heirs. Maybe no matter what, the killer tried to show ‘respect’ to BS at least.

    I’ll pull the house plans up…

    ETA: The Shermans were found facing a wall. When the realtor entered the pool area, she said their backs were facing her. They were tied to a railing leading into the pool, which prevented them from falling backwards into the pool. So, I think they were facing this wall:
    1B3B0339-C036-4197-905F-089D4272F2A6.jpeg
    https://media.houssmax.ca/201711/29/5a1f32afd3797.pdf

    ETA2: (They we’re facing east, possibly n/e?) I cannot upload the google map of 50 Old Colony


    **this is speculation based on what I’ve read.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  4. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Have also wondered if clues could be found regarding the perp's religious and or cultural background.
    Had wondered if the S's were asphyxiated as opposed to being shot, in order not to ''desecrate'' the bodies, but then , HS was not blood-free and of course murder means there will be an autopsy, in this case- more than once (was that a bonus cruelty to the family, "Insult to injury'')?
    Although (apparently in keeping with Jewish practices) H and B were left in the lowest area of the house and a basement window was already slightly open, BS in polite repose.
    speculation, imo.fwiw
     
  5. Tobiano8th

    Tobiano8th Well-Known Member

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    i saw the comment in the last few days about "HS and JS" hating each other.

    i thought i would go back to source i.e. donovan book.. i remember when book first came out i said that was by far the most salient "fresh" bit on info in it. maybe there was other as jarring info but i think all of it had been reported in TStar before the book came out.

    anyway, thought i'd go back to direct source for such a quote:
    Chapter 11: Kings and Queens.. shows up as page 204 of 323 (but i swear page moves around). 64% mark of book..

    "It was a poorly kept secret in the circles the Shermans travelled in that Jonathon and his mother did not get along. People who knew both Jonathon and Honey said they 'hated' each other"

    also, and i will paraphrase most of this.
    relationship between HS and her children was, on many occasions, strained
    HS = very controlling behaviour.. called Kaelen "fat"
    friends of HS said she didn't like talking about her kids.

    BUT here's something that blows me away... did i miss this the first time?

    HS called her kids "the Nazis" to her sister and close friend..... (basically alludes to how the kids controlled HS with constant demands)..... i honestly think if HS were alive, there would be slander/libel suit over this matter (although my guess is that she actually said it many times)
     
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  6. Tobiano8th

    Tobiano8th Well-Known Member

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    i should add on JS and HS alleged "mutual hatred".... it's very very common for kids to hate/resent their parents at different times in their life. much much rarer for parents to hate their kids. i mean, many mothers in my experience will stick with a child through almost anything (i.e. child is mass murderer even)... you can certainly get into definitions here.

    has anyone in an interview setting ever asked KD about this matter?

    to me, the perp in this case is either family-related or is something way on the fringes of BS/Apotex activities, like business dealings with thugs in Russia/Eastern Europe.
     
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  7. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    I read the book and believed most of it, but I have a very hard time believing that HS hated JS or called her children—or anyone—Nazis, other than Nazis themselves.

    I think I’m repeating myself here, but like HS, my father and family escaped the Nazis, and as a child my dad was in a Swedish Displaced Person (DP) camp.

    Using the word Nazi to describe anyone other than an actual Nazi is a grave error, IMO. It belittles who the Nazis were and what they did.

    So I’d have to see proof. I’d have to have the source named. (It seemed to be attributed to HS’s friends.) No offence to KD. If she used this term against her children I’d be very disappointed.

    (Or maybe my family was not the norm? Do people use that term that lightly? Maybe I’m naive.)

    However, like you wrote, none of the children spoke up and corrected what KD wrote.
     
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  8. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    BBM
    When KD interviewed JS they touched on the topic.

    “As to his own relationship with his mother and father, he says it was generally good. Jonathon says that had he been a “straight boy,” his relationship with his mother would have been perfect. His being gay was something that upset Honey in earlier days, he says, but she and Barry made his husband “feel welcome.” ”
    Barry Sherman’s son says his father asked him to repay tens of millions of dollars, two weeks before murders, but Barry was ‘all in’ with son’s business
     
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  9. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    I think it's possible for parents to 'hate' their kids, but yet still love them unconditionally and be there for them and feel protective toward them, etc., as mentioned - at different points in their lives. Some kids can be very difficult and from the things I've read, it seems that JS at least, may have been one of those 'handfuls'. Also, I've been witness to people of certain ethnic groups who say they would disown their children if their children ever 'came out' as gay. I'm not sure if that is an ethnic thing, or just 'some people', or what? And it's hard to imagine that those same people would actually have done that IF their kids had in fact 'come out', but at the same time, it may have possibly been difficult for H to accept, perhaps on top of other possible difficulties? jmo.
     
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  10. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    That part in the book seemed to also refer to H's sister, M, which is a direct source named.. but.. who knows if it was a third party telling KD that H referred to the kids like that TO her sister, or if her sister reported that to him herself? I too have a difficult time believing she or any Jew especially, would use that term, other than for Nazis themselves.. but who knows?

    Some friends of Honey said she, in turn, did not like to speak about her children and, as odd as it may seem given her background, called them “the Nazis” to her sister and close friends—an apparent reference to how she felt they controlled her with constant demands.
    ebook pg 181 (apparently page numbers are different for people depending on what screen they're reading from?)
     
  11. Tobiano8th

    Tobiano8th Well-Known Member

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    on the Nazi quote,

    1) i would be "blown away" if KD made it up....... so there is almost certainly a source, likely multiple sources. and the referencing of it has some specificity

    2) i'm almost certain it was macabre/gallows humour........... personally, i use the expression "stockholm syndrome" for meetings/situations i don't want to be involved with. obviously i don't mean that literally.

    3) Mel Brooks has incorporated all kinds of nazi humour into his work.... for the show Seinfeld, i can think of 3 comedic references to nazi-ism: 1) Schindler's List, 2) Soup Nazi, 3) High Five originating as "heil five".... obviously, this is humour. and i presume a non-jewish person could not get away with this.. as an aside, the hip-hop community seems obsessed with using the "N" word but if a white person used it (in the same context) they'd be cancelled. even quoting the name of the album "N's in Paris" brought alot of heat to a massive paparazzi figure.

    4) JMO but i don't see jewish culture having huge problem with homosexuality.... having said that, i would say it would be a big deal for most parents (of any age, especially older ones) to learn that all of a sudden.

    thanks to the one poster on the color of JS's answer re: relationship with mother.. and i do think that was a good answer.
     
  12. Tobiano8th

    Tobiano8th Well-Known Member

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    i'd have to go back and check... don't remember HS sister being mentioned as source for book.

    i would say that's a moderate slip-up if KD uses her as anonymous source but then suggests she might be a source for that quote. and it's hard to think someone else said "hey, she said it in front of her sister. i was there". why would someone include the sister in that quote?
     
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  13. WINDSOR

    WINDSOR Well-Known Member

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    In summary, I think it fair to say JS had a tenuous relationship with his mother and father. However that is not uncommon in families, and in most cases results in a tolerance and acceptance, not murder.

    I wonder, if a compounding effect can occur with other 'perceived injustices' to begin to create motivation for evil deeds?
     
  14. FromGermany1

    FromGermany1 Don't like it, but have to wait.

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    However, it may be unusual not to be the birth child of your mother and, in the event of any discrepancies, to consider whether the birth mother would have acted differently. I can imagine this as a huge problem during early adulthood, for boys and as well for girls.
     
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  15. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    HI Rush, a couple of points:
    1) There was in fact alleged discussion about BS planning to give $3-$500 million to HS, and then giving the rest of his money away to charity.
    2) BS asked JS to repay $60 million, which I suspect was most of JS' net worth
    3) The idea that a "legitimate" competitor of Barry or Apotex would have him killed seems almost impossible to comprehend or believe. I have been involved in a number of somewhat high profile/High $ corporate disputes over my 40+ year business career, and the idea that someone would kill someone else over these issues seems completely out of mind. Sure maybe if you were doing business with the Mafia or similar organization, but I have read nothing that linked Apotex and BS to any of these alleged criminal organizations (either domestic or foreign)
    4) If this was a business dispute or grudge, and you really were so twisted that you felt the need to murder, why not just murder BS? That would have bene relatively easy. But instead HS was murdered also? That makes no sense. Why murder HS also, unless this was very very personal.

    I know we have different opinions on this, but I suspect these murders were entirely about control and/or money. I hope we soon get the opportunity to understand the real reason for these murders. JMO
     
  16. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Net worth and “money” are not synonymous. As far as we know most the vast majority of Barry’s net worth was represented by the value of Apotex. It’s highly unlikely he was planning on giving Apotex away to charity and there’s absolutely no indication he had immediate plans to sell out. So therefore he was not in a position to make a gift or donation that would’ve left his beneficiaries penniless.

    Considering property values these days, there are many millionaires in TO. But unless they sell their house, it’s not money sitting in bank accounts ready to be spent. The same with the value of Apotex that was owned by Barry - it’s not cash.

    I question the source of “Barry was going at give away his money to charity” because it only serves as a silver platter to possible motive but looking beneath the lid, really doesn’t make sense. JMO

    paylocked -
    Murdered billionaire Barry Sherman planned to give away or invest much of his fortune, sources say
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
  17. Lexiintoronto

    Lexiintoronto Well-Known Member

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    I see BS demanding the return of 50-60 million as the sign of a few things, one being he was withdrawing his investment in their ventures. He was cashing out.

    BS had large, diverse investments, and with some was receiving regular huge returns (Alex’s husband and estate trustee mentioned one in court filings.)

    Like with us, he could opt to renew investments at periods, or cash out. A few people close to him mentioned his plans of giving money away. I think the emails with AP and JS prove that’s what his mindset was. (In my view.)
     
  18. Bobbi Pearl

    Bobbi Pearl Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for this pic Lexiintoronto! I had a lot of thoughts when reviewing it, some recurring questioning theoretical thoughts:

    1. If the murderer(s) were already in the pool room with Honey then they would have seen Barry's lights as he entered the underground garage, it is a glass block wall.

    2. ** this has nagged my thoughts for years now - Why did the removal of the bodies need to be done out the front door? they had to carry them up a set of stairs, why not remove them through the garage, on the same level the bodies were found and more private, we would have had no pictures as they could have been loaded in vehicles in the underground. The pic plastered on the papers had a man with what could appear as a grin on his face bringing out the gurney. I am confident in my thought that the gurney would fit out another door that did not face the media.

    3. another nagging thought is the determination of the time of death, I was reading a lot on the science on how a body will decompose, in a humid room and with clothes on, etc. Then, I believe it was the housekeeper, that went down to view and confirm it was them, she said they were blue. I researched the above because I was surprised that after 36 hours of death the head/face would be blue - I determined faces as no other skin was exposed to be seen by the housekeeper. The head was the tallest point of a seated body and all blood would drain to the lower body, I would not expect it to be blue, maybe grey or pewter. 36 hours is the cusp timing for maggots and flies. Honey is reported to have been injured and had an exposed wound, this would increase her decomposition over Barry's. Not one report from the people in the home was about flies or the number of flies in the home, that surprises me, yes it is winter and not usually as many flies but if they had been in the pool room decomposing for so long I expect that maggots and flies should have been noticed by the people who entered the pool room. Because of where they were and still dressed in such warm clothing they could process faster through some of the stages of death and this can make TOD very difficult to pinpoint.

    It leads me to wonder if they were held hostage for hours or day(s) before death occurred. I still have not ruled out in my head that murder was not the initial plan, that the culprit(s) wanted something and were threatening and Barry did not give in and things went too far. The timing that they had an empty house and nothing on Thursday that would send red flags out to anyone, Honey said they had an issue to deal with and no-showed her meeting but kept a meeting on the new build the next day (that meeting was moved as well, I believe I recall reading that the builders meeting was to be earlier in the week too?) something was up and if Honey was involved with the situation then it most likely had nothing to do with Apotex, we know that Barry shared very little of that with her. This would be something closer to home family or close relations of a family member.

    Maybe just the soft heart in me and hoping that no immediate family member has any knowledge of why or by whom this happened but I do have a few theories, one is that the culprit/mastermind is someone that has complete influence and somewhat controls a family member, Barry and Honey realized this and were making big changes and doing what they could to limit how far this control could get into their world and money. The culprit overreached the family member and went straight to Barry showing their hand and when they did not get what they wanted it came to a head that night.

    I assume the LE will watch the money trail over the years to come and maybe that will create a break in the case.

    4. Last nagging item is the destruction of the home, my observation is they did not try hard to sell the home after the deaths and wanted it destroyed. Other brutal murders happened and those homes are now monuments or owned and lived in by families. Very few are gutted like this and so quickly after unsolved deaths, the topic was reported in the media so early, not long after the police tape was removed rumors started they wanted it demolished. Myself having both parents gone (naturally), it is very hard to let go of their things, I know it is different they were murdered here and it may be painful to family members but crushing the home they no longer lived in themselves, why not just sell it for less, like they sold the cost of the cleared land for - they paid to clear it, so they sold for a loss? It is another feeling of overkill, get rid of any memory or memento of them, the reports that so much furniture and belongings were left in the home to be demolished was shocking.

    I wonder where the remnants of the home were taken, where did the dump trucks dump it for landfill, was this closely monitored by anyone?

    Do you think this is the children making these suggestions and decisions or family friends influence or the Sherfam lawyers?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  19. WINDSOR

    WINDSOR Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Barry, as he advanced in age, was consolidating his investments. He was aware that JS and all the children were going to inherit a vast amount of valuable Apotex shares.
    Barry was also likely knew that the heirs would be selling Apotex and cashing out of the business. He was cognizant that his life's work would not become a family legacy. Sad in a way.
    Barry also might have felt the $50-60 million cash could be useful to him now, to enjoy doing with, while he was able.
     
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  20. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    Bobbi Pearl, some comments.
    -Re 2) I believe the police did not take them out of the garage in order to not taint the garage as a possible crime scene. Don't forget, Barry's car was in the garage and they needed to preserve it and the garage and investigate it.
    -Re 3) I put no faith in the "blue" description. The housekeeper AFAIK has no medical training, and blue could just be a metaphor for discoloured. Also, I wonder if it is possible that the blood could not drain from the head due to the belts- speculation only on my part. I feel the TPS has a tight handle on time of death, through scientific as well as other information.
    -Re held hostage- the killers would have no idea if a family member could just show up the next day unexpectedly. Also, service providers could have visited the house, some of them had keys/access. It seems unlikely to me that they were held hostage into the next day. JMO
    -Re The culprit/mastermind is someone that has complete influence and somewhat controls a family member. I agree with you that this is a definite possibility
    - Re the house. It was probably pretty well unsellable given the notoriety of the murders. The family likely figured lets just tear it down and sell the land. Money foregone on the house was not a concern to them, the value to them was inconsequential. I do think it is terrible that they evidently didn't salvage and donate perfectly good things from the house to a charity or similar organization. And I also wonder why certain things were left in the house by the TPS as discussed in a published article from someone that entered the house before demolition.
     

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