CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #18

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MistyWaters

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I don't interpret this wording as saying they were moved. It only refers to them being posed. Which could mean crossing the legs, replacing the glasses etc. But not necessarily moving them from another place. MOO

Yes we don’t know if they were moved after death from one area to another or just posed. But either way the act of staging would’ve taken place as it appeared the body positioning was for the purpose of disguising the fact the victims met the fate of a double homicide. Just me, I think it would be difficult to strangle another person in a sitting position from a pool rail with no back wall unless something like chloroform was used to knock them out. Even if the victims wrists were bound, a sitting position enables a struggle to take place.

“Staging is a conscious criminal action on the part of an offender to thwart an investigation.….

…..In "staged crime scenes," however, the presentation of the homicide victim and the manipulation of the crime scene by a clever offender could make the death appear to be a suicide….”
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juli99

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I can well imagine, B+H knew resp. were told, who wanted them dead and why.

So, most likely we are looking for someone who can speak English very well? Would whoever hired them rely on a foreigner with poor English to explain to HS and BS why they are being murdered? JMO
 

Jay78

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Man oh man. I checked out of this case for a year, but always prayed that it would be cracked for the family's sake...for the sake of justice and what is right..but man, if a the cops have is a unclear video of a POI walking down the street...this case is dead in the water. Imagine being their kids... Wealthy or not--someone brutally murdered your parents... They will be forever looking over their shoulders.
 

FromGermany1

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So, most likely we are looking for someone who can speak English very well? Would whoever hired them rely on a foreigner with poor English to explain to HS and BS why they are being murdered? JMO
The killer would have been able to negotiate the $$ with the English speaking client (Torontonian?) first. Then some explaining to HS+BS shouldn't have been a problem. ;) A short written statement would have been another possibility.
 

juli99

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The killer would have been able to negotiate the $$ with the English speaking client (Torontonian?) first. Then some explaining to HS+BS shouldn't have been a problem. ;) A short written statement would have been another possibility.

It's too bad if they did know, that they couldn't have communicated or left a clue somehow. I guess that's what HS was trying to do with her cell phone in the powder room.
 

WINDSOR

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The obvious question is 'who' did it. Many believe by discovering 'why' will lead us to 'who'. I think that is the long way around to solving this case.

To be honest after four years, maybe this case can never be solved without one of the principals involved in the crime speak to the TPS.

Until the TPS can identify who the NW is, and where he was walking to, nothing will move forward.
We do not know if the TPS has checked residency records of some locations, vehicle rental agreements at some locations, flight records for certain dates. Have the TPS done a gait analysis on the NW video to determine if the limp is an affectation or sign of previous trauma or medical issue?
They could have and come up with nothing. Maybe records do not exist anymore. We must accept the fact the perpetrator's team have a lot of expertise in not getting caught.

So far the TPS's methodologies have not appeared to be effective.
We have to hope the TPS opens up and tells us what they need. Also the TPS have to be current, and not wait four years to share info.

Can you imagine if the TPS showed the NW video six months after the murders? A lot of citizen's memories would be a lot fresher, and chances of recognition would have been a lot higher.

(If the TPS showed the NW video earlier, and somebody might have said, 'that looks sort of like the guy who lived in the basement next door for a few months'.)

MOO.
 

Lexiintoronto

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That would be an example of the typical hit, shoot quickly, be out and on their way. But to take additional time and effort to pose bodies in such a way that it appears even for a moment have been a m/s….to me that evens very different because it involves an emotional aspect. If someone is hired to kill, death is the objective and so the mission is accomplished the minute the victims heart stops beating.

In the Sherman case it seems to me someone with a very personal vengeance and who was extremely diabolical was directly involved, a person who got their rocks off by viewing up close both Barry and Honey satisfactorily positioned in such a way as to illustrate their end of life game was of their own making. If not for that reason, what would be the point the staging? JMO

I was reading a thesis paper on homicide staging, and she wrote that of the cases she studied about 75% of the killers who staged the victim had a personal relationship with them (at least at some point.)

She also mentioned staging is deception and it may say something about the person doing the staging: they’re frequent liars and how they present themselves to be to the world isn’t true. Their crime is no different.

Just theory, but if they’re caught, maybe they’ll say they restrained the Shermans by belts (and give an excuse) and want people to believe the Shermans caused their own deaths by changing position. Or blame those closest to them for not finding them sooner in order to save them.

Barry’s phone was found at the scene and the killer removed the restraints. Maybe the killer was trying to make it look like they left them alive with the ability to call for help.
 
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juli99

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The obvious question is 'who' did it. Many believe by discovering 'why' will lead us to 'who'. I think that is the long way around to solving this case.

To be honest after four years, maybe this case can never be solved without one of the principals involved in the crime speak to the TPS.

Until the TPS can identify who the NW is, and where he was walking to, nothing will move forward.
We do not know if the TPS has checked residency records of some locations, vehicle rental agreements at some locations, flight records for certain dates. Have the TPS done a gait analysis on the NW video to determine if the limp is an affectation or sign of previous trauma or medical issue?
They could have and come up with nothing. Maybe records do not exist anymore. We must accept the fact the perpetrator's team have a lot of expertise in not getting caught.

So far the TPS's methodologies have not appeared to be effective.
We have to hope the TPS opens up and tells us what they need. Also the TPS have to be current, and not wait four years to share info.

Can you imagine if the TPS showed the NW video six months after the murders? A lot of citizen's memories would be a lot fresher, and chances of recognition would have been a lot higher.

(If the TPS showed the NW video earlier, and somebody might have said, 'that looks sort of like the guy who lived in the basement next door for a few months'.)

MOO.

I think they should share the rest of the video that they have. It would 1) spur the public to pay attention again, particularly those who live in the area, and 2) give us more info about the path that he took.
 

WINDSOR

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I was reading a thesis paper on homicide staging, and she wrote that of the cases she studied about 75% of the killers who staged the victim had a personal relationship with them (at least at some point.)

She also mentioned staging is deception and it may say something about the person doing the staging: they’re frequent liars and how they present themselves to be to the world isn’t true. Their crime is no different.

Just theory, but if they’re caught, maybe they’ll say they restrained the Shermans by belts (and give an excuse) and want people to believe the Shermans caused their own deaths by changing position. Or blame those closest to them for not finding them sooner in order to save them.

Barry’s phone was found at the scene and the killer removed the restraints. Maybe the killer was trying to make it look like they left them alive with the ability to call for help.

'....had a personal relationship with them'
Everything in this case points to a personal relationship.
1) The staging 75% probability of a relationship
2) When parents are found murdered at home, est 80% probability of a family member.

3) Follow the Money. who benefited financially?

So either a brilliant and unrelated perpetrator(s) set everything up to frame an innocent person or group of people, whom have had a relationship with Barry/Honey; or..................
 

MistyWaters

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'....had a personal relationship with them'
Everything in this case points to a personal relationship.
1) The staging 75% probability of a relationship
2) When parents are found murdered at home, est 80% probability of a family member.

3) Follow the Money. who benefited financially?

So either a brilliant and unrelated perpetrator(s) set everything up to frame an innocent person or group of people, whom have had a relationship with Barry/Honey; or..................

I agree the killer’s motive likely involved a personal agenda but “follow the money” is the complexity considering the many possibilities.
 

ldlager

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I agree the killer’s motive likely involved a personal agenda but “follow the money” is the complexity considering the many possibilities.

I would have said that is more true if it was only BS that was murdered.
But don't you thing that murdering them both, if there was a strong financial motive, would point to a significantly narrowed number of potential financial beneficiaries?
 

juli99

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I am reminded again of the case of Wayne Millard, only because it was first ruled a suicide and much later a murder.

I wonder, what will the smoking gun be in this case? A cell phone record? Where the second belt was purchased? There has to be something TPS is missing because they aren't considering everyone a serious suspect.

Judge finds Dellen Millard guilty in death of father

"The trial heard that Dellen Millard told police he found his father dead in bed around 6 p.m. on Nov. 29, 2012.

He told investigators he last saw his father alive around noon the day before and had stayed the night at his friend Mark Smich's house. Phone records indicate one of Millard's phones moved from Smich's house around 1 a.m. on Nov. 29, 2012, to his father's home where it stayed until shortly after 6 a.m.

The trial also heard that Dellen Millard bought a handgun found next to his father's body from a weapons dealer -- evidence Forestell accepted.

The trial heard that Dellen Millard blamed his father for the company's financial issues.

"The last time I spoke to him, I told him the company's financial troubles were his doing and that he was a failure," Millard wrote in a text to his girlfriend that was presented in court. "Usually he tells me not to worry. But this time he said maybe I was right."

Days after his father's death, Dellen Millard fired everyone at Millardair and wound the business down, court heard."
 

Window21

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There has to be something TPS is missing because they aren't considering everyone a serious suspect.

All JMO, but I think they have had a few suspects...and personally I think they have a strong idea who is behind these murders but they just don't have all the evidence they need to make a conviction "stick"

I watch a lot of true crime shows and usually the police have a very strong suspicion who did it and usually they are correct. I think it is the same with this case. The police are holding a lot of info that they refuse to share with the public and I think they are just looking for a few pieces and then they will charge the suspect. All JMO
 

Satchie

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the TPS have to be current, and not wait four years to share info.

Can you imagine if the TPS showed the NW video six months after the murders? A lot of citizen's memories would be a lot fresher, and chances of recognition would have been a lot higher.

(If the TPS showed the NW video earlier, and somebody might have said, 'that looks sort of like the guy who lived in the basement next door for a few months'.)

MOO.
Snipped for focus.

I just happened to have recently listened to a podcast where the head of an investigation discussed this issue of going public with video evidence of unknown perps. It was a very different case, the Boston bombing, but he pointed out each side of the argument.

On the one hand, if you don't release the video, you can work behind the scenes and not tip your hand to the perp, they'll feel more secure that you've nothing against them, and then LE have a better chance of getting evidence through a normal investigation.

On the other hand, the biggest fear of LE in the case of the bombings was, if they didn't release the evidence and the perps set another bomb, it would be horrible for any future victims to believe that the case might have been solved sooner through releasing the video.

In that case, the footage was much clearer in showing their faces. But no one called in any tips pointing to them. Instead, it caused the bombers to panic, destroy evidence (with the help of roommates), kill a police officer for his gun, carjack someone, and then engage in a firestorm where one of the bombers was killed, but miraculously the officers survived.

I think this illustrates that there can be dramatic consequences to making that decision to release video: it's not just about the public, more importantly, it's the perps themselves who are going to be the most interested, and police don't know how they'll react.

Given that the Sherman murders were believed to be targeted, ie the public was not at risk; also that the video in this case is really not good enough for anyone except perhaps the perps wife or mother to recognize the person, I can see why LE held it back. IMO, finally releasing it was just to show the public that they did have actual evidence of a perp committing the homocide, and they've reached the end of their ability to follow this person's trail, so shaking the perp up is a last resort.

JMO
 
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WINDSOR

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Snipped for focus.

I just happened to have recently listened to a podcast where the head of an investigation discussed this issue of going public with video evidence of unknown perps. It was a very different case, the Boston bombing, but he pointed out each side of the argument.

On the one hand, if you don't release the video, you can work behind the scenes and not tip your hand to the perp, they'll feel more secure that you've nothing against them, and then LE have a better chance of getting evidence through a normal investigation.

On the other hand, the biggest fear of LE in the case of the bombings was, if they didn't release the evidence and the perps set another bomb, it would be horrible for any future victims to believe that the case might have been solved sooner through releasing the video.

In that case, the footage was much clearer in showing their faces. But no one called in any tips pointing to them. Instead, it caused the bombers to panic, destroy evidence (with the help of roommates), kill a police officer for his gun, carjack someone, and then engage in a firestorm where one of the bombers was killed, but miraculously the officers survived.

I think this illustrates that there can be dramatic consequences to making that decision to release video: it's not just about the public, more importantly, it's the perps themselves who are going to be the most interested, and police don't know how they'll react.

Given that the Sherman murders were believed to be targeted, ie the public was not at risk; also that the video in this case is really not good enough for anyone except perhaps the perps wife or mother to recognize the person, I can see why LE held it back. IMO, finally releasing it was just to show the public that they did have actual evidence of a perp committing the homocide, and they've reached the end of their ability to follow this person's trail, so shaking the perp up is a last resort.

JMO

Shaking up the perp up can be a goal in itself. You site the Boston bombers reaction to the video release which resulted in more fatal consequences.
However I think that we are dealing with a different type of crime, not terrorism, but targeted murders. The perps in the Sherman case are much more sophisticated than the young men in Boston. I would not expect gunfights with these perps.
I agree the TPS has a very good idea who was involved, but do not have enough evidence to lay charges. All the more reason to shake things up a bit, to see what comes to the surface. After four years, there is not much evidence left that the perps can destroy.
 

MistyWaters

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I would have said that is more true if it was only BS that was murdered.
But don't you thing that murdering them both, if there was a strong financial motive, would point to a significantly narrowed number of potential financial beneficiaries?

If it was a personal matter, it might’ve boiled down to whether or not Honey supported or perhaps even influenced Barry in a hypothetical ugly financial dispute. As much as we know now about the actual inheritance, Honey did not inherit the estate so there can’t have been a financial motive to murder her. Beneficiaries are always investigated first, especially when wealth is involved but I just can’t see it here. JMO
 

juli99

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If it was a personal matter, it might’ve boiled down to whether or not Honey supported or perhaps even influenced Barry in a hypothetical ugly financial dispute. As much as we know now about the actual inheritance, Honey did not inherit the estate so there can’t have been a financial motive to murder her. Beneficiaries are always investigated first, especially when wealth is involved but I just can’t see it here. JMO

But the kids did not get anything unless HS died too.

Slain billionaire Barry Sherman's will divided estate equally among four children

"Slain billionaire Barry Sherman left his entire estate to be evenly distributed among his four adult children in the event of his wife’s death, according to court documents.

Sherman also laid out instructions in the event that he died before his wife.

In that case, he asked that trustees hold his entire estate in trust and pay “the net annual income derived therefrom” to Honey Sherman “in quarterly installments."
 

Lexiintoronto

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If it was a personal matter, it might’ve boiled down to whether or not Honey supported or perhaps even influenced Barry in a hypothetical ugly financial dispute. As much as we know now about the actual inheritance, Honey did not inherit the estate so there can’t have been a financial motive to murder her. Beneficiaries are always investigated first, especially when wealth is involved but I just can’t see it here. JMO

RBBM

If Honey had lived, she would have had the net proceeds from the businesses and the children wouldn’t have received anything until her death.

I think had she lived, and Barry had died, she would have followed up on Jonathon’s commitment to repay the $50-60 million and taken a hard look at his other investments and financial support to people.

“The police documents detail that both wills stipulated that, should Barry die before Honey, Honey would be given the “net annual income” of all of Barry’s holdings, paid to her on a quarterly basis “or in periodic payments as Honey Sherman directs.” Honey was also to be paid for her “comfortable maintenance and benefit” as determined by the trustees (also called executors). The Star’s sources say that Barry’s fortune was close to $10 billion.

Police then note Barry’s wishes once Honey was no longer alive: “Upon the death of Honey Sherman the residual of the estate shall then be divided in equal shares for each child of Bernard Sherman,” according to the police documents, prepared on Jan. 18, 2018, after a detective read the wills.”
Detectives have probed Barry and Honey Sherman’s estate plans for murder clues — why, they won’t say | The Star

fwiw, I believe that she had her own will and the original document she signed was in the home (maybe removed or destroyed by the killer.)

Barry’s wills weren’t found at the home or at Apotex—Alex’s husband Brad Krawczyk provided them to police. Honey & Barry were going to have dinner at Alex & Brad’s home, had they lived, on Friday. I think it’s possible Honey had the will at home and was going to give it to them for safe-keeping.

The timing may make sense because she was about to leave for Miami, then two other trips.

My opinion only.
 
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MistyWaters

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But the kids did not get anything unless HS died too.

Slain billionaire Barry Sherman's will divided estate equally among four children

"Slain billionaire Barry Sherman left his entire estate to be evenly distributed among his four adult children in the event of his wife’s death, according to court documents.

Sherman also laid out instructions in the event that he died before his wife.

In that case, he asked that trustees hold his entire estate in trust and pay “the net annual income derived therefrom” to Honey Sherman “in quarterly installments."

An estate being held in trust and a recipient being paid an income just means that the trustees administer the estate. As Honey was never named a trustee, she would have no control in the way it was managed. The trustees would be authorized to make the financial decisions until her death.
 

Lexiintoronto

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An estate being held in trust and a recipient being paid an income just means that the trustees administer the estate. As Honey was never named a trustee, she would have no control in the way it was managed. The trustees would be authorized to make the financial decisions until her death.

But the four heirs wouldn’t receive anything until her death. Worse, she was vocal about the children being given too much money.

If you just isolate a two-week period from November 28 to December 15th, Jonathon asked for and received three different payments from Barry that totaled over 6.5 million.
 
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