CANADA Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #19

MistyWaters

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
10,618
Reaction score
57,177
On pages 91 and 92 of KD's book it says, "They (LE) were also seeking from someone a series of telephone and banking records, and, intriguingly, information from two airline loyalty programs....Police were interested in someone's flights and bank records."

Looks to me a different twist on an older sensalized headline. This story was published by KD back in the day to suggest TPS were only investigating the possibility of m/s. Now it might be all about “someone”?


BBM
“……The warrant and two production orders, which were approved by a judge, gave police the right to obtain information from Rogers (likely cellphone records); to retrieve information from a storage locker at the police force’s Forensic Identification Services on Jane St……

…..Among the information the police sought were “medical records” obtained by a provincial pathologist (likely during one or both of the autopsies); more records from BMO; and records from two companies in the retailer loyalty business, Aimia Inc. and LoyaltyOne Co. The documents do not explain whose information police were seeking from those companies, which are involved in customer analytics and some specific loyalty programs such as Airmiles, in the case of LoyaltyOne Co……”
 
Last edited:

newclues

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2021
Messages
206
Reaction score
753
Looks to me a different twist on an older sensalized headline. This story was published by KD back in the day to suggest TPS were only investigating the possibility of m/s. Now it might be all about “someone”?


BBM
“……The warrant and two production orders, which were approved by a judge, gave police the right to obtain information from Rogers (likely cellphone records); to retrieve information from a storage locker at the police force’s Forensic Identification Services on Jane St……

…..Among the information the police sought were “medical records” obtained by a provincial pathologist (likely during one or both of the autopsies); more records from BMO; and records from two companies in the retailer loyalty business, Aimia Inc. and LoyaltyOne Co. The documents do not explain whose information police were seeking from those companies, which are involved in customer analytics and some specific loyalty programs such as Airmiles, in the case of LoyaltyOne Co……”
The Shermans were both strangled with leather belts, then positioned, seated, with the other end of each belt looped around a pool railing, holding them upright. As the Star reported in January, their wrists were tied at some point, but the ropes or ties used were not found at the scene.
 

dotr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
44,280
Reaction score
109,130
Why and how is it that there are drag marks in the dust, but not the perp's footprints, and if he/they did wipe them away, why leave the drag marks? How did they maneuver the bodies in such an awkward space?

Why did HS's ''slip-ons'' not slip-off ? speculation, imo.

REFRESHER, GRAPHIC.
Kevin DonovanChief Investigative Reporter
updateArticle was updated Jun. 22, 2022 rbbm.

''A person walking in from the lone entry door would have seen Honey at the far end of the pool (40 feet away). Honey was in profile, the left side of her body the first part visible. She is fully dressed, wearing dark pants, a blouse and a blue vest. Her rear end is on the floor, her legs stretched out in front. Her shoes, simple black slip-ons (she had perpetually sore feet and liked a comfortable shoe), are almost touching the wall that faces the pool.''

''Barry is situated on the other side of Honey. He is attached to the angled railing a little bit farther back, which explains why, though he is taller than Honey, his feet are roughly one foot from the wall. He, too, is wearing his shoes. His right leg is crossed over the other at the ankle. He is wearing his glasses.''

''At some point during the attacks, both were restrained at the wrists while they were alive, as a forensic investigation would later show.''

''In the photos I have seen there are what appear to be faint drag marks on the tiled floors, possibly from the heels of one of the Shermans’ shoes, which end at the bodies. From the police documents, we know that the Sherman cleaning staff had not visited the room for three weeks, so the faint marks were likely made in dust on the floor.''
1663369462104.png
 

Rush4087

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
620
Reaction score
4,871
Why and how is it that there are drag marks in the dust, but not the perp's footprints, and if he/they did wipe them away, why leave the drag marks? How did they maneuver the bodies in such an awkward space?

Why did HS's ''slip-ons'' not slip-off ? speculation, imo.

REFRESHER, GRAPHIC.
Kevin DonovanChief Investigative Reporter
updateArticle was updated Jun. 22, 2022 rbbm.

''A person walking in from the lone entry door would have seen Honey at the far end of the pool (40 feet away). Honey was in profile, the left side of her body the first part visible. She is fully dressed, wearing dark pants, a blouse and a blue vest. Her rear end is on the floor, her legs stretched out in front. Her shoes, simple black slip-ons (she had perpetually sore feet and liked a comfortable shoe), are almost touching the wall that faces the pool.''

''Barry is situated on the other side of Honey. He is attached to the angled railing a little bit farther back, which explains why, though he is taller than Honey, his feet are roughly one foot from the wall. He, too, is wearing his shoes. His right leg is crossed over the other at the ankle. He is wearing his glasses.''

''At some point during the attacks, both were restrained at the wrists while they were alive, as a forensic investigation would later show.''

''In the photos I have seen there are what appear to be faint drag marks on the tiled floors, possibly from the heels of one of the Shermans’ shoes, which end at the bodies. From the police documents, we know that the Sherman cleaning staff had not visited the room for three weeks, so the faint marks were likely made in dust on the floor.''
View attachment 366650
@dotr, how many drag marks, one “set” (a “set” being two), or two “sets” (a total of four)? Tia
 

newclues

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2021
Messages
206
Reaction score
753
The Shermans were both strangled with leather belts, then positioned, seated, with the other end of each belt looped around a pool railing, holding them upright. As the Star reported in January, their wrists were tied at some point, but the ropes or ties used were not found at the scene.
 

FromGermany1

Formerly FromGermany
Joined
Apr 16, 2021
Messages
1,479
Reaction score
12,589
Why and how is it that there are drag marks in the dust, but not the perp's footprints, and if he/they did wipe them away, why leave the drag marks? How did they maneuver the bodies in such an awkward space?

Why did HS's ''slip-ons'' not slip-off ? speculation, imo.

REFRESHER, GRAPHIC.
Kevin DonovanChief Investigative Reporter
updateArticle was updated Jun. 22, 2022 rbbm.

''A person walking in from the lone entry door would have seen Honey at the far end of the pool (40 feet away). Honey was in profile, the left side of her body the first part visible. She is fully dressed, wearing dark pants, a blouse and a blue vest. Her rear end is on the floor, her legs stretched out in front. Her shoes, simple black slip-ons (she had perpetually sore feet and liked a comfortable shoe), are almost touching the wall that faces the pool.''

''Barry is situated on the other side of Honey. He is attached to the angled railing a little bit farther back, which explains why, though he is taller than Honey, his feet are roughly one foot from the wall. He, too, is wearing his shoes. His right leg is crossed over the other at the ankle. He is wearing his glasses.''

''At some point during the attacks, both were restrained at the wrists while they were alive, as a forensic investigation would later show.''

''In the photos I have seen there are what appear to be faint drag marks on the tiled floors, possibly from the heels of one of the Shermans’ shoes, which end at the bodies. From the police documents, we know that the Sherman cleaning staff had not visited the room for three weeks, so the faint marks were likely made in dust on the floor.''
View attachment 366650
Perhaps the drag marks aren't in the dust, but it's residue from shoe heels/soles, somewhat coloured even? The dust could have been swiffered away together with the footprints, perhaps? Though one would see the swiffer movements in the dust (if not the footprints). The killer will not have cleaned the whole room, although he was otherwise very diligent.

Yes, MY slip-ons would have come off, immediately, if someone had dragged my lying body. But the killer could have put them on again, just as he probably did with BS' glasses.

The staging seems to have been verrry important to the killer, down to the last detail. Wondering: why?
 
Last edited:

WINDSOR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2011
Messages
1,431
Reaction score
3,689
I would like to get back to the Night Walker for a moment. The TPS were pretty confident he was in the Sherman home at the time of the murders. We can be pretty sure if arrested, he can be charged with some offence, if only trespassing or breaking and entering.

If he is part of the kill-team, chances are, he has information on who the mastermind could be, or at least who the NW's contact is, which could lead to the mastermind.

It has been a number of months since the TPS has showed the NW video and asked for the public's help.

Has the TPS learned anything yet? If the TPS received leads and tips, they should have completed investigating them by now. What are the results of those investigations? Have they resulted in anything? I feel the TPS should let the public know if the request by the TPS has lead anywhere.

Soon after the NW video, I suggested the TPS review all border crossing activity in Canada to see if they could see the NW entering and leaving Canada (Based on my theory the NW was a non-resident).

Has the TPS even attempted to do this?
Has the TPS any reason that the NW is a resident of Canada?

To be honest I watched a show where the TPS bungled a possible murder investigation, and now wonder how persevering they are in this case.

The fact there is no feedback from the TPS makes one wonder if any hard digging is being done?

 

dotr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
44,280
Reaction score
109,130
The Shermans were both strangled with leather belts, then positioned, seated, with the other end of each belt looped around a pool railing, holding them upright. As the Star reported in January, their wrists were tied at some point, but the ropes or ties used were not found at the scene.
At some point between 2018 when that article was posted and 2022, the weapon used to strangle each of the Shermans, changed from strangled with ''leather belts'', to thin ligatures, the belts apparently only used to hold the heads up, a butcher's window display!
imo, speculation.


2022 rbbm.
''Chiasson also took note of a thin line underneath where the belts were wrapped around the Shermans’ necks, indicating to him that they were killed with a thin ligature — the belts were merely used to hold the bodies up afterward. This indicates the Shermans were killed prior to the belts being attached to their necks. No thin ligatures were found at the crime scene.

Pickup, the first pathologist, had made these observations, but it did not cause him to make a determination on the manner of death. It took Chiasson, the more experienced pathologist, to make the determination of double homicide.''
 

MistyWaters

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
10,618
Reaction score
57,177
At some point between 2018 when that article was posted and 2022, the weapon used to strangle each of the Shermans, changed from strangled with ''leather belts'', to thin ligatures, the belts apparently only used to hold the heads up, a butcher's window display!
imo, speculation.


2022 rbbm.
''Chiasson also took note of a thin line underneath where the belts were wrapped around the Shermans’ necks, indicating to him that they were killed with a thin ligature — the belts were merely used to hold the bodies up afterward. This indicates the Shermans were killed prior to the belts being attached to their necks. No thin ligatures were found at the crime scene.

Pickup, the first pathologist, had made these observations, but it did not cause him to make a determination on the manner of death. It took Chiasson, the more experienced pathologist, to make the determination of double homicide.''

It’s impossible to believe even the most inexperienced pathologist would note a victim died by a thin ligature, then remove it prior to repositioning his own (dead) body to a railing tied by a belt and still fail to conclude a homicide occurred. I seriously question the reason KD is so confident of his source for that unbelievable scenario. IMO it casts doubt over his own reporting integrity of what he present as facts of this case.
 

ldlager

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,760
Reaction score
6,776
It’s impossible to believe even the most inexperienced pathologist would note a victim died by a thin ligature, then remove it prior to repositioning his own (dead) body to a railing tied by a belt and still fail to conclude a homicide occurred. I seriously question the reason KD is so confident of his source for that unbelievable scenario. IMO it casts doubt over his own reporting integrity of what he present as facts of this case.
Misty are you suggesting that the first pathologist, before the second autopsy was even conducted, concluded that these deaths were homicides?
 

MistyWaters

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
10,618
Reaction score
57,177
Misty are you suggesting that the first pathologist, before the second autopsy was even conducted, concluded that these deaths were homicides?

Yes that’s what I’ve always believed. So as an investigative tactic TPS held off the official homicide announcement long enough to conclude initial interviews with possible suspects. Surely anyone involved in two homicide staged to appear as a double suicide or m/s at first glance wouldn’t argue against it. JMO
 

FPoulet

New Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2022
Messages
2
Reaction score
9
Yes that’s what I’ve always believed. So as an investigative tactic TPS held off the official homicide announcement long enough to conclude initial interviews with possible suspects. Surely anyone involved in two homicide staged to appear as a double suicide or m/s at first glance wouldn’t argue against it. JMO
Or maybe they would — for exactly the reason to which you allude: so they have the appearance of innocence.
 

newclues

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2021
Messages
206
Reaction score
753
At some point between 2018 when that article was posted and 2022, the weapon used to strangle each of the Shermans, changed from strangled with ''leather belts'', to thin ligatures, the belts apparently only used to hold the heads up, a butcher's window display!
imo, speculation.


2022 rbbm.
''Chiasson also took note of a thin line underneath where the belts were wrapped around the Shermans’ necks, indicating to him that they were killed with a thin ligature — the belts were merely used to hold the bodies up afterward. This indicates the Shermans were killed prior to the belts being attached to their necks. No thin ligatures were found at the crime scene.

Pickup, the first pathologist, had made these observations, but it did not cause him to make a determination on the manner of death. It took Chiasson, the more experienced pathologist, to make the determination of double homicide.''
Weren't they supposedly killed by a soft ligature that did not break the hyoid bone? The leather belts would qualify as a soft ligature. I had always thought that the following sentence found on page 43 of KD's book was one of the most important ones: "However, the belts had been brought from the death scene, and by making a comparison to the markings on each neck it seemed likely that they were the ligatures used." Why say this if they weren't it?
 
Last edited:

casesensitive

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
1,265
Reaction score
8,329
Weren't they supposedly killed by a soft ligature that did not break the hyoid bone? The leather belts would qualify as a soft ligature. I had always thought that the following sentence found on page 43 of KD's book was one of the most important ones: "However, the belts had been brought from the death scene, and by making a comparison to the markings on each neck it seemed likely that they were the ligatures used." Why say this if they weren't it?

You are referring to what Dr. Pickup may have been thinking during his autopsies.

There seems to be some confusion as to the quoted autopsy findings, and which pathologist found what.

Dr. Pickup did note that both Sherman's wrists showed thin markings. He photographed these markings and removed them for further analysis to determine if they were old or new markings. They looked recent to him.

Dr. Pickup did NOT notice the thin markings under the wider belt markings on their necks. It was the second pathologist, Dr. Chiasson who discovered them.

Dr. Pickup didn't determine a manner of death, Dr. Chiasson determined double homicide. Toronto Police never interviewed Dr. Chiasson about his findings until after they were published in the media 6 weeks later.

IMO, TPS had tunnel vision for murder/suicide, which was a widely held belief that has never changed based on their intial investigation. Dr. Pickup's autopsies are official documentations, and he did not find that it was a double murder. Police would have no motive to withhold these results in order to trick any suspect.
 

ldlager

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,760
Reaction score
6,776
Yes that’s what I’ve always believed. So as an investigative tactic TPS held off the official homicide announcement long enough to conclude initial interviews with possible suspects. Surely anyone involved in two homicide staged to appear as a double suicide or m/s at first glance wouldn’t argue against it. JMO
If Dr Pickup knew definitively that it was a double homicide, I see no reason for him to have attended the second autopsy. I don’t think Pickup knew what to conclude.
 
Top