Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2

[DarkSkink]

I agree. I hadn't really thought this through before, but grasping at the neck or belt isn't going to make any difference if it's you who is applying your weight on the belt, as opposed to someone else strangling you and you trying to remove it. A more effective or instinctive reflexive action might be to sit up again and stop leaning forwards. I can't see why he would worry about clawing at his own neck, that in itself is not going to prevent his death if he changes his mind. This line of thought has led me to wonder if there was something also preventing him from sitting up - that must have been a worry for him too if he was so worried about being able to release the belt with his hands.

Hmm, I've strayed a bit from my original question but I do wonder why he chose that method and why the jacket like that. It doesn't suggest a depressive cause on first reflection.

It makes a difference if you get a single finger in the right spot, or tear the ligature in a semi-conscious, adrenaline induced state.

 

[DarkSkink]

I can&#8217;t see him as a womaniser or even appealing to women. <modsnip>

Rich men often have female partners that make you think to yourself, "What on earth does SHE see in HIM???"

Rich men are often targeted for marriage, children, false accusations etc. It's about the money.

Several articles even describe Honey's quest for a rich man, "... and at the urging of her mother, she once told a magazine writer, she volunteered at Mount Sinai hospital to meet a nice Jewish doctor."

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...ter-violent-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman

 

[kay74]

A person commits suicide for two reasons, they are distraught or in a fit of rage. In each scenario no one is going to have the patience to put each of their bodies in this position and with jackets the way they were. In such state of mind, I cannot see anyone putting out a scene like that. IMOO

 

[FastLikeLight]

[deleted].ALSO slightly off topic but there is no way to access home value. No Zillow, no Realtor.com. Everything is a secret and controlled by vested interests. You can't find out how much your neighbor is paying in property taxes or how much your house is really worth. Peace order and way too much government

Not true!
The information is available at www.aboutmyproperty.ca Though you must have a property in Ontario, to have an account.
The former house ( 91 Old Forest Hill Rd. ) built year was 1928; value assessed ~5.7M. Sales Indicator: 2016 Nov. The property tax will be a percentage from that value. Though, it depends from town to town, from city to city.
https://www.toronto.ca/services-pay...ies/property-tax/property-tax-rates-and-fees/

If you think someone is avoiding paying taxes, then you call crime stoppers

 

[tarabull]

It seems interesting when you look at:
1. Trudeau's push to legalize cannabis
2. Sherman's fundraising for Trudeau
3. Sherman's (unethical?) lobbying of the Liberals
3. Apotex's partnership to CannTrust (a federally regulated licensed producer of Medical Cannabis )
I haven't looked into it in any detail, but it seemed interesting and It sure would make for a lot of enemies MOO


https://canntrust.ca/licensed-producer-about-us/

:thinking:

Ottawa sticks with July 2018 deadline to legalize pot despite provincial worries
June 19, 2017

Snipped...

..."We gave everybody lots of time," Trudeau said in Ottawa. "We've been working for a long time with all the provinces, with the municipalities... It's time for us to move forward on this."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/finance-ministers-pot-legalization-cameron-frieson-1.4167642

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Trudeau Rules Out Canada Day For Marijuana Legalization
December 20, 2017

Snipped...

...Trudeau shook his head when interviewer Pierre Bruneau asked him why he was so obsessed with July 1 as the date for the cannabis legislation to become law.

The prime minister said it "would not be July 1,'' but that it would be "for next summer.''

"The date will not be July 1, I can assure you of that,'' Trudeau said. "I don't know where that date came from.''

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/1...da-day-for-marijuana-legalization_a_23312549/

:what:

 

[DarkSkink]

One of the things I’ve noticed rude and arrogant people say when they’re being rude and arrogant? “I’m just being honest!!”


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And others find it rude and arrogant to tell people what they are thinking, rather than hearing what they are saying.

What if they are truly being honest? You are then doing them, and yourself, a disservice by wrongfully, and selfishly dismissing them as "arrogant", rather than hearing their point.

Typically, honest people are dismissed as "arrogant" when they make a valid point the "dismisser" disagrees with. Typically, the "dismisser" can't simply refute the honesty, because it is the honest truth.

They then resort to tactics such as dismissive labelling.

 

[minorone]

One of the things I&#8217;ve noticed rude and arrogant people say when they&#8217;re being rude and arrogant? &#8220;I&#8217;m just being honest!!&#8221;


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Being nice for the sake of being nice is not being honest. I think the solution is to express yourself objectively and honestly in a respectful way. I for one prefer someone who is honest, rather than someone who is a hypocrite and who pretends to have certain beliefs and attitudes when they really do not.

 

[AllyJane]

BBM

How do you know they did not have concrete evidence of murder suicide? Only LE on the scene would have access to all the evidence in addition to any crime scene photos. They were the ones who actually had eyes on the bodies, the positions they were in, the condition of the bodies, if there were any scratches on BS's arms or face or elsewhere, any defensive wounds on HS, ect. Given the evidence they discovered at the scene they determined right away it was murder suicide, so I would say the evidence at the scene was pretty overwhelmingly in favor of that.

No child wants to believe their father would kill their mother. But as we have seen thousands of times, that is indeed just what he did.

Those kids did not live in the home with their parents and probably had not for many years. Of course their parents were going to put on a front that everything was all peachy when they were with their kids. After all what parents wants to dump all their problems they are having on the kids they love? The kids have no way of knowing what problems their parents were having or how deep those problems ran. Neither do the friends or any other relatives.

Once the LE in Canada jump though the hoops that the wealthy kids and high profile friends put them through I think they are going to come back with exactly the same conclusion they had from the first moment they saw the crime scene. Murder suicide. The kids may never except fully, but I think given time they will come to terms with it.

JMO

Unless the police have seen a video of the event happening or confirmed a note verifying in one of the victim's handwriting, there is no concrete evidence from day one. Police have to go through various scenarios and theories and, from my experience with them, the first one is not always the correct one until they have completely investigated the premises and autopsy results. While sources may have had the theory of murder-suicide, the did so before interviewing family, friends of coworkers. After that source saying the MS theory, evidence came out about the fact that the Shermans had a lot of near future plans including a daughter's wedding and going to Florida. That is evidence as well. And we have not heard of any previous violence or animosity between the Shermans yet. I am not saying their life was perfect but if they had no recent history of issues, then motive for a murder suicide is questionable. I am not saying that it is impossible but makes it less likely.

Of course the children are going to want the image of their parents to be positive but how do you know that they don't have valuable information to the case. Assuming that because the children don't live with the parents is no indication on how close they were or weren't.

So many pieces of conflicting information is out there (no security cameras, camera in the pool area turned off, etc) that is it is very difficult for the public to know which is true to base theories on or which is not.

Does anyone know if there was an open house or showings prior to the deaths? Do we know if any previous staff members were fired? Do we know any connections of the current staff ? All these can help explain how someone can get access to the home with out a break in or know the layout of the house to plan a murder.

Someone previously brought up an interesting point about why the bodies were taken upstairs to remove them from the front door instead of the garage which was next to the pool. I am not sure if anyone confirmed if there was outdoor access from the pool to the garage or other outdoor area. If so, it is interesting that they would take the bodies upstairs to remove them hinting that the other crime scene may be the garage.

JMO

 

[human]

I don't know if it's helpful but I found this pdf (contains floor plans, etc)

Notice was given and a Public Hearing was held on Wednesday, June 28, 2017

NOTICE OF DECISION
MINOR VARIANCE/PERMISSION
(Section 45 of the Planning Act)

File Number: A0220/17TEY Zoning RD (f18.0; d0.65) (x1321) &
R1 Z0.6 (ZZC)
Owner(s): HONEY SHERMAN
[
Ward: St. Paul's (21)
Agent: N. JANE PEPINO Heritage: Not Applicable
Property Address: 91 OLD FOREST HILL RD Community: Toronto
Legal Description: PLAN 1560 LOT 54 LOT 55
Notice was given and a Public Hearing was held on Wednesday, June 28, 2017



DATE DECISION MAILED ON: Tuesday July 4, 2017
LAST DATE OF APPEAL: Tuesday July 18, 2017

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/8f7a-C_of_A_TEY_Decisions_June_28_2017.pdf


***ETA: Specifically see page 112 of the pdf - that's the info regarding this property. It appears it was all signed but I kinda stink at interpreting some info

I was shocked at the amount of changes they were allowed in terms of setbacks, driveway lenghts, lenghts of the structure. Lots of giveaways. Not just one change

 

[conledavis]

I apologize. I found a couple of permits too

 

[anonypotomous]

Being nice for the sake of being nice is not being honest. I think the solution is to express yourself objectively and honestly in a respectful way. I for one prefer someone who are honest, rather than someone who is a hypocrite and who pretends to have certain beliefs and attitudes when they really do not.

I never said anything about hypocrisy, or about people being nice for the sake of being nice. I appreciate people being honest as well, I’m sure most folks do. I was talking about people who are rude and arrogant.


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[anonypotomous]

And others find it rude and arrogant to tell people what they are thinking, rather than hearing what they are saying.

What if they are truly being honest? You are then doing them, and yourself, a disservice by wrongfully, and selfishly dismissing them as "arrogant", rather than hearing their point.

Typically, honest people are dismissed as "arrogant" when they make a valid point the "dismisser" disagrees with. Typically, the "dismisser" can't simply refute the honesty, because it is the honest truth.

They then resort to tactics such as dismissive labelling.

Oh boy. I must not have conveyed my post well. It’s not that deep [emoji23] Did I strike a nerve?

I’m talking about people I myself KNOW are rude and arrogant. Not simply dismissing decent people for their honest point of view.




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[DarkSkink]

Unless the police have seen a video of the event happening or confirmed a note verifying in one of the victim's handwriting, there is no concrete evidence from day one. Police have to go through various scenarios and theories and, from my experience with them, the first one is not always the correct one until they have completely investigated the premises and autopsy results. While sources may have had the theory of murder-suicide, the did so before interviewing family, friends of coworkers. After that source saying the MS theory, evidence came out about the fact that the Shermans had a lot of near future plans including a daughter's wedding and going to Florida. That is evidence as well. And we have not heard of any previous violence or animosity between the Shermans yet. I am not saying their life was perfect but if they had no recent history of issues, then motive for a murder suicide is questionable. I am not saying that it is impossible but makes it less likely.

Of course the children are going to want the image of their parents to be positive but how do you know that they don't have valuable information to the case. Assuming that because the children don't live with the parents is no indication on how close they were or weren't.

So many pieces of conflicting information is out there (no security cameras, camera in the pool area turned off, etc) that is it is very difficult for the public to know which is true to base theories on or which is not.

Does anyone know if there was an open house or showings prior to the deaths? Do we know if any previous staff members were fired? Do we know any connections of the current staff ? All these can help explain how someone can get access to the home with out a break in or know the layout of the house to plan a murder.

Someone previously brought up an interesting point about why the bodies were taken upstairs to remove them from the front door instead of the garage which was next to the pool. I am not sure if anyone confirmed if there was outdoor access from the pool to the garage or other outdoor area. If so, it is interesting that they would take the bodies upstairs to remove them hinting that the other crime scene may be the garage.

JMO

From the little we do actually know, there had to be something very glaring to make LE jump to that conclusion right away.

Two rich old people hanging from a rail isn't going to make one think "murder/suicide". Quite the opposite actually.

It wasn't really until the family publicly complained that LE clamped down and began an increasingly intense investigation. Given the Dellen Millard murder charges after his father's death initially being ruled a suicide, and given the Sherman's wealth and political connections, it seems like LE was a little slow to recognize the potential legal hot potato they were holding, and then overreacted to the realization.

If they are searching the sewers a *full week* after the bodies were found, that would hint at bumbling rather than great police work if there was some early indication of a third party committing murder. This stinks of going through the motions, placating, and butt covering.

The optics for LE on this one are no win. Do they investigate this thoroughly for everyone? Or just those who are fundraisers for political parties? Do they search the sewers within a few block radius when they find a murdered prostitute?

I went a bit astray from your point.

Your observation about avoiding the garage is a clever one if that was the easier route out. They may have also been trying to avoid prying eyes and pictures.

 

[tarabull]

Honey Sherman was &#8216;ultimate connector&#8217; with &#8216;best Rolodex in the country&#8217;
December 25, 2017

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...nnector-with-best-rolodex-in-the-country.html

 

[DarkSkink]

Oh boy. I must not have conveyed my post well. It&#8217;s not that deep [emoji23] Did I strike a nerve?

I&#8217;m talking about people I myself KNOW are rude and arrogant. Not simply dismissing decent people for their honest point of view.




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It's just about deeper thought and more meaningful communication. You KNOW they are arrogant and rude? To others, they may be insightful.

Even your best case scenario, they may be rude and arrogant, but they may also be making a valid, and correct point. Communication is communication. Personal judgements about tone, reputation, motivation or otherwise should come secondary to the message conveyed.

Should someone discover the cure for cancer, or solve the mystery of this case, how they come across when they convey it to others doesn't somehow make what they are saying incorrect or wrong.

 

[DarkSkink]

A person commits suicide for two reasons, they are distraught or in a fit of rage. In each scenario no one is going to have the patience to put each of their bodies in this position and with jackets the way they were. In such state of mind, I cannot see anyone putting out a scene like that. IMOO

What about the recent spate of suicides on video? Some go through very elaborate staging and explanations.

What about mass killings before the ultimate suicide? The Las Vegas mass killer went through quite a process to stage that scene, allegedly scoping out prior public gatherings and slowly acuiring weapons.

Although there are commonalitites, every individual will put their individual touch into their own ending. BS was apparently thorough, meticulous, hard working and driven to get things done. Would the layout of this scene not resemble and require those very traits?

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

What about the recent spate of suicides on video? Some go through very elaborate staging and explanations.

What about mass killings before the ultimate suicide? The Las Vegas mass killer went through quite a process to stage that scene, allegedly scoping out prior public gatherings and slowly acuiring weapons.

Although there are commonalitites, every individual will put their individual touch into their own ending. BS was apparently thorough, meticulous, hard working and driven to get things done. Would the layout of this scene not resemble and require those very traits?

Agree, a great many suicidal people do a lot of planning. Lyle Stevick, the Annandale VA cemetery Jane Doe, the census worker Bill Sparkman, Illinois police officer Joe Gliniewicz, the Michigan PhD student Xin Rong who rented a Cessna and jumped out sometime before it crashed in Canada, Rita Maze who called her family and told them she had been kidnapped and put into the trunk of her car. A lot of people meticulously plan out their suicides.

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[JDG]

I was shocked at the amount of changes they were allowed in terms of setbacks, driveway lenghts, lenghts of the structure. Lots of giveaways. Not just one change

I agree, too many minor variances but money talks. A very nice home in the works though. Well, with permits, it will sell easily. JMO

 

[kay74]

What about the recent spate of suicides on video? Some go through very elaborate staging and explanations.

What about mass killings before the ultimate suicide? The Las Vegas mass killer went through quite a process to stage that scene, allegedly scoping out prior public gatherings and slowly acuiring weapons.

Although there are commonalitites, every individual will put their individual touch into their own ending. BS was apparently thorough, meticulous, hard working and driven to get things done. Would the layout of this scene not resemble and require those very traits?

Well I can't compare this with terrorists or these videos. Barry was old and to do this to a wife he was married to for years on end and being 75 it's hard to imagine him going through this. I think he would be too old and tired. MOO

 

[tarabull]

Merry Christmas everyone....

:fireworks: