Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[Deleted member 102539]

The sad truth is, there are some 6,000 cases of suicide per year in Canada, and pretty much 100% percent are exactly that: suicide. Leaving in their wake shattered families, grief, guilt, turmoil.

I do not agree that it's the job of police to assume all those suicides are potentially murders, that without any evidence whatever police should pry into the family, interrogate them, accuse them of lying, refuse to allow the case to be closed. That since Dellen Millard, a psychopath, almost got away with it, we should now assume everyone is just like him?

What do the statistics say about "annoying" elderly/aged, in need of care, affluent people, who don't want to die "in time" and get murdered by their relatives?
Evil DM and his ilk doesn't simplify the matter for EM/LE.

 

[ldlager]

The sad truth is, there are some 6,000 cases of suicide per year in Canada, and pretty much 100% percent are exactly that: suicide. Leaving in their wake shattered families, grief, guilt, turmoil.

I do not agree that it's the job of police to assume all those suicides are potentially murders, that without any evidence whatever police should pry into the family, interrogate them, accuse them of lying, refuse to allow the case to be closed. That since Dellen Millard, a psychopath, almost got away with it, we should now assume everyone is just like him?

I think it is incumbent on LE to approach each case with an open mind, and to conduct a thorough examination of the facts and the evidence before arriving at a conclusion as to whether a death is murder, suicide, natural causes, or an accident. This seemingly is not their approach lately in some cases, for whatever reason. I don't want the police to assume that all murders are suicide either.

 

[dotr]

Hope this lengthy and informative link is fine to post. imo.
Interpreting a Crime Scene
"Interpreting a Crime Scene
Veteran crime scene investigators almost always assume the worst when it comes to approaching a crime scene. In many cases, murder is the first thing that crosses their mind when approaching any victim. Even in cases where suicide or accident may be apparent, the investigation must proceed as if a murder took place in order to ensure that the scene has not been staged to look like a suicide or death by natural causes when it was caused by murder.


In addition, signs of struggle often indicate that another person or persons has been involved in a victim's death. What are some signs of a struggle?

• Bloodstains in various areas or locations of the crime scene

• Torn clothing

• Scratches or defense marks on the victim (or suspect)

• Overturned or broken furniture

• Clumps of pulled-out hair
  A victim might have moved from one portion of a house or crime scene to another in the perpetration of the attack, and signs of evidence or struggle might enclose a large or small area, or be entirely absent in the area where the victim had been found.
  
  
  A victim will not necessarily leave bloodstains or spots upon the first blow of an attack. However, each successive blow will cause blood to spatter or drip as the object used in the attack picks up blood and debris and sprays or spatters on other objects. For example, a victim may be initially attacked in a kitchen, but not leave evidence of blood until he or she reaches the living room, as the object that has been used to attack the victim becomes saturated with blood. Bloody handprints and smears often follow the trail of the victim as he or she attempts to escape the attacker.
  
  
  Blood interpretation will be covered in a later lesson, but suffice it to say that unless the victim does not immediately succumb to the attack, or is knocked unconscious immediately, he or she will leave a trail of blood for investigators to follow.
  
  
  When investigating a crime scene, even one that is apparently a suicide, investigators must search the premises or location for signs of blood or other biological evidence, especially on doorknobs, keys and curtains. In many cases, signs of a struggle are erased if the perpetrator cleans up the area, but in many cases, a suspect will forget to check and clean the underside of furniture or will leave fingerprints or bloody smears when moving the victim, cleaning up after himself or even something as simple as flushing the toilet. Always check inside and outside of objects for fingerprints and bloodstains, as well as always looking up to check ceilings and beams for blood spray or spatter.
  
  
  On the other hand, victims committing suicide or those caused by accidental death often make various injuries that may appear to be defense injuries. Such is the case in poisoning or hanging, when a victim may kick or lash out as their bodies react to poisons or the rope tightening around their neck. They may scratch or gash their hands or arms, and feet may kick holes in walls or break or otherwise move furniture."
  
  

 

[human]

Since she struggled, is there anything under her fingernails or on her body? Dropped hair or skin cells?

 

[Satchie]

What do the statistics say about "annoying" elderly/aged, in need of care, affluent people, who don't want to die "in time" and get murdered by their relatives?
Evil DM and his ilk doesn't simplify the matter for EM/LE.

I believe police are a part of the society they work within, not separate and independent. They (with prosecutors, etc) have to balance, on the one hand, detecting crime, and on the other hand, the power they have to disrupt the lives of innocent citizens and create a social climate of suspicion and surveillance.

I would say the main concern in Canadian society wrt family crime is abuse of women by their partners, and abuse of children. We now accept that in most circumstances a spouse/ex-spouse or caregiver must be treated, at least initially, with suspicion when there is a death in those cases.

I don't think the majority of Canadians believe that the deaths of elderly people, or other suicides, are generally murders. In fact, large numbers of Canadians are preoccuppied with the burden on a family of trying to live with a mentally-ill/suicidal person, (while at the same time advocating the right to assisted suicide, btw). The family of people who have committed suicide are considered particularly victimized, more so than if it was a murder by a stranger. Police are expected to be considerate and respectful of the family in this most traumatizing experience of their lives. For police to walk in with suspicions, accusations, etc, would not, I believe, be acceptable to most Canadians, who are not as preoccupied with crime cases as we are.

 

[JDG]

What do the statistics say about "annoying" elderly/aged, in need of care, affluent people, who don't want to die "in time" and get murdered by their relatives?
Evil DM and his ilk doesn't simplify the matter for EM/LE.

I think that happens more than we'd like to acknowledge. Sadly, it often goes unnoticed.

I'd like the see any stats that DO exist about elderly people 'living too long' and relatives who are eager to have their inheritances.

 

[JDG]

I think it is incumbent on LE to approach each case with an open mind, and to conduct a thorough examination of the facts and the evidence before arriving at a conclusion as to whether a death is murder, suicide, natural causes, or an accident. This seemingly is not their approach lately in some cases, for whatever reason. I don't want the police to assume that all murders are suicide either.

Couldn't agree more. Your last sentence in particular.

 

[ldlager]

Ontario coroner to review undetected homicides — all the way back to Tammy Homolka | The Star

Ontario coroners office to launch review of homicide cases originally determined to be suicide. Sherman case is not included in the inquiry as it is an active case.

“... The Sherman family was fortunate to have the financial resources to hire a parallel set of independent investigators to get answers. This should not be necessary in Ontario’s death investigation system. Everyone should have equal access to justice...”

 

[MistyWaters]

Ontario coroner to review undetected homicides — all the way back to Tammy Homolka | The Star

Ontario coroners office to launch review of homicide cases originally determined to be suicide. Sherman case is not included in the inquiry as it is an active case.

“... The Sherman family was fortunate to have the financial resources to hire a parallel set of independent investigators to get answers. This should not be necessary in Ontario’s death investigation system. Everyone should have equal access to justice...”

Here’s the link to the Harrisons case also mentioned in the above article. I suppose the decision by the Ontario Coroners Office to review what might be other cases of “concealed homicide” is a positive outcome, albeit it seems a forced decision based on recent tragedies coming to light.

GUILTY - Canada - Bill, 65, Bridget, 63, & Caleb Harrison, 40, slain, Mississauga, 2009-2013

 

[JayFriend]

Here’s the link to the Harrisons case also mentioned in the above article. I suppose the decision by the Ontario Coroners Office to review what might be other cases of “concealed homicide” is a positive outcome, albeit it seems a forced decision based on recent tragedies coming to light.

GUILTY - Canada - Bill, 65, Bridget, 63, & Caleb Harrison, 40, slain, Mississauga, 2009-2013

Unfortunately LE does not investigate suspicious deaths that might be suicide with sufficient scrutiny. Evidence is disturbed or overlooked entirely, notes not taken, etc. I can see it as compassion for loved ones and family when it is obviously suicide. A prime example is the Wayne Millard murder originally ruled as suicide that's before the court now. The defense counsel is having a field day with the sloppy investigation.

 

[WINDSOR]

I wonder if Ontario's new Premier Doug Ford has any interest in the Sherman case? I believe the Shermans were often associated with the Liberal party, who Ford's Conservatives turfed out. No doubt the new Attorney General will be briefed on the case.

 

[andreww]

Doesn't look like anybody is showing any interest in the Sherman case. Feels like its getting colder every day.

 

[JDG]

Doesn't look like anybody is showing any interest in the Sherman case. Feels like its getting colder every day.

No doubt the police are working their butts off every day to try to solve it.
So much paper work, such complicated finances and so many possible perps.
It was always going to take a long time but its really only been close to 6 months.

 

[Kerry Winter]

I wonder if Ontario's new Premier Doug Ford has any interest in the Sherman case? I believe the Shermans were often associated with the Liberal party, who Ford's Conservatives turfed out. No doubt the new Attorney General will be briefed on the case.

“....believe the Shermans were often associated with the Liberal party” is an understatement. Prime Minister Trudeau and Premier Wynne attended their televised nationwide funeral. Doug will be VERY interested!!!!

 

[Kerry Winter]

Strange: if my parents were brutally killed and hung like stuffed pigs....and my family’s worth over 5 billion.....l would offer a hefty reward for any info on the multiple murderers who targeted them.
NO reward.

 

[andreww]

Strange: if my parents were brutally killed and hung like stuffed pigs....and my family’s worth over 5 billion.....l would offer a hefty reward for any info on the multiple murderers who targeted them.
NO reward.

No reward, no updates, no pleas for public assistance. Whole lot of nothing going on.

 

[MistyWaters]

No reward, no updates, no pleas for public assistance. Whole lot of nothing going on.

Or the silence could indicate LE has no reason to issue an update, or plea for public assistance, nor encourage the family to offer a reward (which often results in wasting valuable time on useless tips) because they don’t require the public’s assistance to solve the case? They’re in the process of finalizing their investigation prior to charges being laid?

The saying “the wheels of justice move slowly” seems particularly true in Canada. Also the Supreme Court ruling that the trial of the accused must be completed within 2 years has likely lengthened the duration of investigations even further.

 

[casesensitive]

Reporter Joe Warmington of the Toronto Sun doesn't sound too happy about tight-lipped TPS who didn't give an update on the sixth anniversary of the deaths today.

But Greenspan sounds more positive, and is still on the case. No snide comments about the money he is earning okay? haha

“We are actively engaged in our investigation,” legendary lawyer Brian Greenspan said, on behalf of the four Sherman children. “This is unequivocally a double homicide.”

WARMINGTON: Nothing but silence six months after mysterious Barry and Honey Sherman deaths

 

[WINDSOR]

If my theory of overseas professional assassins, is valid, we can expect very little information from TPS or other official sources. There is very likely very little direct evidence that will give TPS any solid leads. Possibly they have some 'subjects' they are surveilling with the hope of a 'break' in the case.

The lack of a reward being offered could point to the fact TPS has a pretty good idea who and how the crimes were committed but do not have enough evidence or the jurisdictional ability to lay charges.

A reward would only bring in false leads and tips.

Here is a variation on my theory that might be plausible.

A bad guy escapes to Canada from Country 'A' after stealing a great deal of money from the Government of Country 'A'.
Country 'A' has the death penalty and no extradition treaty with Canada. Canada will not send the bad guy back to Country 'A'.
Country 'A' decides to send a message to Canada. We will assassinate a prominent, politically-connected couple if you do not return the bad guy. Canada does not return the bad guy.

Result kinda makes sense, doesn't it.

 

[ldlager]

If my theory of overseas professional assassins, is valid, we can expect very little information from TPS or other official sources. There is very likely very little direct evidence that will give TPS any solid leads. Possibly they have some 'subjects' they are surveilling with the hope of a 'break' in the case.

The lack of a reward being offered could point to the fact TPS has a pretty good idea who and how the crimes were committed but do not have enough evidence or the jurisdictional ability to lay charges.

A reward would only bring in false leads and tips.

Here is a variation on my theory that might be plausible.

A bad guy escapes to Canada from Country 'A' after stealing a great deal of money from the Government of Country 'A'.
Country 'A' has the death penalty and no extradition treaty with Canada. Canada will not send the bad guy back to Country 'A'.
Country 'A' decides to send a message to Canada. We will assassinate a prominent, politically-connected couple if you do not return the bad guy. Canada does not return the bad guy.

Result kinda makes sense, doesn't it.

RBBM- "...The lack of a reward being offered could point to the fact TPS has a pretty good idea who and how the crimes were committed but do not have enough evidence or the jurisdictional ability to lay charges..."
Or maybe TPS doesn't want the family to offer a reward because it would indicate that TPS has little to no evidence at all, and no suspects. This is possible also.

Regarding your Country A scenario - You mean like Iran? And by the "bad guy" could you mean someone like Khashayar Khavari who is wanted by the judicial authorities of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and Interpol, in connection with $2.6 billion missing from Bank Melli in Iran? And who is associated with (and allegedly threatened the life of) the developer of the One Bloor St W development- the development that Barry Sherman had provided financing for? Or is that all just a coincidence?
I have posted about him/this relationship before. I hope the TPS is deep into this situation!!