Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

Discussion in 'Crimes in the News' started by dotr, Dec 15, 2017.

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  1. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    RBBM
    TPS did indeed reveal both COD and manner of death, in that COD was 'ligature neck compression', while manner was 'double homicide' as noted in TPS's press conference in late January? While that didn't specifically state that the pathologist ruled it was double murder, surely police would not have gone against what the pathologist's findings were?
     
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  2. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    A few posts up thread, the idea of HS as the killer was mentioned, do you think there was any chance that could have happened?
    speculation, imo.
     
  3. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    Honey Sherman died first, by several hours. No chance the killed BS.
     
  4. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Duh, of course thanks!
     
  5. andreww

    andreww Former Member

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    Your post raises some very good points. First and foremost, the pathologist is not the person that decides if a death is a murder, a suicide, or natural causes. He simply reports what he finds, and how exactly the person died. In this case we know only that the COD was ligature strangulation, but that may have been present in the case of a murder or a suicide. The Pathologist's findings need to be combined with the crime scene evidence to tell the full story.

    This makes me wonder about the conclusions drawn by the independent examiner. Specifically I wonder about his findings as they relate to Honey, specifically the laceration and pooled blood. My problem with this is that we already know that Honey was murdered, either by Barry or an assailant. The key here will be what injuries were found on Barry. There has been talk that their wrists were restrained with plastic ties. I am wondering what evidence there is of that? If there were plastic ties, why were they removed? And why the need for the jackets pulled back over their arms? We have also heard talk that the strangulation may not have been from the belts, and might have been from a rope or manual strangulation. I find this very strange as well as I have seen many autopsy photos of the results of a strangulation and it is alway fairly obvious if someone was strangled by rob or by hand. The markings are distinct. I just don't see how it could possibly be one or the other?
     
  6. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    Or that the first pathologist was possibly "convinced" to change what might have been his initial finding
     
  7. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    Andreww, how do you know that HS died first, and by several hours? She was possibly home earlier, but I don't ever recall seeing info published , or confirmed by LE that she "died" several hours earlier?.
     
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  8. JayFriend

    JayFriend Well-Known Member

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  9. dotr

    dotr Well-Known Member

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    Nice shout out here for Hazel!
     
  10. Grey-St

    Grey-St Well-Known Member

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    BBM. Why are you so quick to assume that this isn't happening? Just because you're not hearing something publicly? We've heard nothing from anyone, on all fronts. I would assume both parties are still investigating thoroughly to get to the bottom of this crime.
     
  11. Grey-St

    Grey-St Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the first doctor was under some sort of pressure, like he had folks in his head saying it was likely a murder/suicide. Maybe he just wasn't quite sure for his own reasons, and feared getting it wrong, so held off declaring MOD for BS. Maybe the private doctor has been doing this a bit longer and feels much more confident in his decision making abilities and skills. Maybe after the two doctors spoke, the first one felt much more confident in making a final decision, in terms of having clarity/simplicity, ignoring the noise, and consulting another professional.

    Sometimes I need that too, so I get it. JMO though.
     
  12. ldlager

    ldlager Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes I need that too. But if he had issues or questions wouldn't it make more sense for him to reach out to his boss (who in this case is an experienced pathologist); or his coworkers (who are also experienced pathologists and medical doctors)? Or call in an independent expert from another city, another province, or the USA? Instead, he relies on a pathologist hired, at least indirectly, by the family???. To many, including many a reasonable observer, the family's pathologist could be perceived as having a vested interest in having the finding come out as MM. All JMO
     
  13. JDG

    JDG Websleuther

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    To add to GreySts' posts, the TPS has openly stated the costs, time and man-hours needed for both the Sherman and BM murder cases has left them short financially. Pretty obvious that they are still working on it. Five months for such a huge amount of paperwork, alone, is not a long time never mind to find the perps.

    Excellent posts GreySt.
     
  14. AllyJane

    AllyJane Member

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    4 hour polygraph with the Fifth Estate? Funny but I thought his meeting with police as reported by the Toronto Sun was 4 hours per a quote by Mr. Winter in Feb 2nd article. Four hours is a long time for a police interview as well as a polygraph and to have both be 4 hours is a quite a coincidence.
     
  15. JDG

    JDG Websleuther

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    All physicians have a code of ethics to follow and we have zero proof that he has failed to do so.
     
  16. Hazel

    Hazel New Member

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    Thank you for your reply deugirtini.
    Not trying to put words in your mouth, but if I'm reading it correctly, you are saying:

    That on Dec. 20, 2017 the private team [hired by family] were "immediately" able to come to a MM conclusion.

    and

    " ... eventually" the private team [hired by family] changed the police theory on the Shermans' deaths from murder-suicide to double homicide.

    Eventually, meaning not immediately after, but most likely that "change" happened during that Monday, January 22, 2018 interview, right?​

    I'm guessing we are on the same page. We will have to wait for the next updates, in order to better understand what happened.
     
  17. Hazel

    Hazel New Member

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    I'm sorry, I'm not that familiar with pathologists' lingo. I meant to say "mechanism of death" or however it's called.
    The TPS only mentioned COD (ligature neck compression) but haven't said if by means of the leather belts, ropes, plastics, nothing, only said that they were hung with leather belts. The LE didn't say if they believe the Shermans were dead before being hung or if they die as a result of the hanging. iirc
    I was just trying to point out that all other details we've heard came from sources apparently from the private team. JMOO
     
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  18. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    Apparently TPS did not bother to even know what was discovered during the private autopsy, or review/compare any differences there may have been between the two, or subsequently ask the original pathologist what his thoughts were on whatever was noticed during the 2nd autopsy. These are not my words, they are from a newspaper article from a highly respected crime reporter with the Toronto Star.
     
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  19. Kerry Winter

    Kerry Winter Verified Family - Barry and Honey Sherman

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    Agree.
     
  20. Kerry Winter

    Kerry Winter Verified Family - Barry and Honey Sherman

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