Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[MistyWaters]

No one answered my question if there was a way to have a card reader read the code to the lock box like it done on gas pumps and ATM’s by criminals

My guess is that the murderers knew there were no cameras. Who would even imagine that billionaires did not have cameras

As much as I gather, a card reader is typically an overlay precisely fitted on top of the terminal keypad which is why LE frequently advise people to be observant to what appears abnormal.

All the realtors lockboxes I’ve ever seen, somewhat anciently practical and basic in appearance, I can’t imagine how anything could be attached and go unnoticed. However the front side with the fairly large number keys offers no privacy whatever, if someone is standing behind a realtor chooses to watch a realtor key in the code.

That’s my personal experience anyway. I recall going to an open house at the time it was advertised to begin. There stood a frustrated realtor at the front door, cellphone in one hand speaking with someone who was obviously giving her the wrong code, stooped at the waist eyeballing the lockbox as she carefully tried various different combinations. I turned my back but had I not, I could’ve easily observed the code that eventually opened the box, entirely unknown to her as nobody has eyes in the back of their head.

My theory, something like that occured and the realtor involved had absolutely no inkling that he or she’d been observed keying in the code.

ETA this as well -
....“There are 100 possibilities of how one enters a home without evidence of forced entry,” family lawyer Brian Greenspan said Tuesday.

......“Original photographs of the exterior of the scene (showed) a real-estate lock box which are notoriously easy to open. Open it, go to Canadian Tire and get the key made, return the key to the lock box and you have a key to the house.”...
WARMINGTON: Someone could have entered Shermans’ home, lawyer says

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Someone could always peek at the kitchen through a window, for that matter, most of the rooms seem to offer a good view into the house, except perhaps the pool area...
imo, speculation.
Barry and Honey Sherman sued builders of North York home | The Star

I can't imagine at all, that for this home there was a time, when 4 children jumped around each other ....

 

[dotr]

No one answered my question if there was a way to have a card reader read the code to the lock box like it done on gas pumps and ATM’s by criminals

My guess is that the murderers knew there were no cameras. Who would even imagine that billionaires did not have cameras

Thieves breaking into Denver homes are using real estate lockboxes to do so
rbbm.
May 4 2018
"Christensen’s home was for sale. She believes the thieves posed as potential buyers, watched the realtor open the lock box and then came back to burglarize the home.

"You see her in the camera walk up to my door,” Christensen said. “She knew the lock box code and entered my house without us ever approving a showing or any notification or anything."

Law enforcement confirms there have been more home burglaries using this sneaky technique."

 

[Kerry Winter]

There was definitely political pressure being put on the police to change their (reported) thinking that it was m/s.. and then we see articles about how Chief Saunders is a 'puppet on strings' to the mayor.. which leads one to wonder if such puppetry could have had a play in this case as well.. at least it leads *me* to wonder..

"Mark Saunders said in a statement issued Friday night that the officer — whom he does not name — will be disciplined if found to have committed misconduct.

The letter from Mark Hayward, addressed to Tory and first reported by Global News, blames the mayor for the decision to cancel the Toronto Anti-Violence Intervention Strategy (TAVIS) in 2016, which the letter says deprived police of a crucial tool in keeping violent street gangs at bay.

In the letter, Hayward calls Saunders "a puppet on strings," which he says are pulled by the mayor."
‘A puppet on strings’: Toronto police investigating officer’s scathing letter to mayor

Mayor Tory

More on the timeline —

Jan 26th - The Sun reports that actors driving vehicles similar to the Shermans on Jan 24th. They’re involved in filming an episode for the Fifth Estate.

.....“The story will take a new turn, perhaps this week, when Toronto Police hand over the scene to Greenspan’s hired private detective.....”
Sherman lookalikes ‘eerie’ as camera crews roll into neighbourhood

Jan 26th - TPS Press Conference announcing the targeted double homicide.

Feb 2nd - airdate of the Fifth Estate: The Mystery of the Sherman Murders.
Here it is, anyone who missed it or wants to rewatch. Without KW, it’d been difficult for CBC to fill the hour time slot.

I recall being quite surprised CBC had the documentary ready to roll so quickly following the official announcement by TPS.

Something I also just noticed, a brief clip in the video - the son’s comparison of his parents relationship to “a lock and key” in his prepared eulogy. Either just a weird coincidence or he intentionally choose (or LE asked) to drop that hook out there considering the possible access to the home via the lockbox.

Since then, really nothing more. Just a matter of waiting for the slow wheels of Justice to turn....

KNOW that my participation in The Fifth Estate occurred when the rumour was M/S and the Sherman family and friends were adamantly opposed to such an outrageous suggestion. I believed in the M/S and came forward. Shortly before the doc aired, Gomes held her press conference and the CBC turned on me. The result being: l made the cover of the National Enquirer. The producer’s of the 5 th, Detective Brandon Price, hired gun Tom Klatt and Brian Greenspin all know why l believe it M/S. BTW: absolutely zero of what l know aired on the show or has appeared in any Canadian media outlet.

 

[Kerry Winter]

The outcome of the appeal will be interesting.

While I’m no legal expert, what I understand from the Judge’s written Summary Judgement is one of the main reasons the lawsuit Winter v. Sherman was dismissed was because it virtually mirrored the earlier failed legal action against Royal Trust. That ruling was also unsuccessfully appealed.

The only aspect that differed was the addition of an alleged conversation between you and Mr O’Brien occuring in 2008. As Mr O’Brien is now deceased and that conversation was never mentioned in the earlier Royal Trust lawsuit, the Judge ruled the evidence to be inadmissible as it cannot be proven.

I know you can’t comment and my intent is only to share my personal understanding about the context of the proceedings.

.......

[35] The evidence, as set out in the original affidavit material that was before Justice Perell, and Sherman’s more recent affidavit, affirmed January 27, 2017, clearly supports this analysis. Kerry Winter’s affidavit, as I read it, does not provide any new evidentiary support for an alleged Commitment, other than his alleged conversation with Mr. O’Brien to the effect that it was Sherman’s promise and verbal assurances to include the children in the business that convinced Royal Trust to sell to S & U. I was not referred to any evidence from Sherman’s more recent cross-examination that supports different conclusions than those reached earlier by Justice Perell, or that is contrary to Sherman’s position on this motion.

[36] I am unable to rely on the evidence from Mr. Winter concerning the alleged conversation with Mr. O’Brien. It is hearsay which cannot be tested by cross-examination, as Mr. O’Brien is dead. Secondly, these discussions allegedly took place in 2008 and therefore could have been put forward on the Royal Trust motion in an affidavit from Mr. O’Brien, or alternatively, on a Rule 39.03 examination. Thirdly, this evidence directly contradicts the purchase and sale agreement agreed to by Royal Trust. Fourthly, the purchase and sale agreement contains an entire agreement clause which specifically provides that there were no “verbal statements, representations, warranties, undertaking or agreements between the parties.” Fifthly, it ignores the fact that Sherman’s offer was $100,000 more than the only other offer. And finally, it ignores Justice Perell’s finding, at paragraph 110 of his reasons, that Mr. O’Brien told Mr. Ward that “t appears that we have fully canvassed the market and our chances of selling the companies at a higher price than offered by Barry Sherman would be minimal.” This was the rationale for the sale, not the one now put forward by the plaintiffs.

<....>

[2016 ONSC 3124 (CanLII), 266 A.C.W.S. (3d) 726, at para. 71. I am mindful of the fact that the defendants are different, but the Commitment and Undertaking could and should have been raised earlier. Mr. O’Brien was one of the trustees of the family trusts. He was a member of the Royal Trust Management Committee. He was involved in the sale of the Empire Companies. Surely if Royal Trust was not relying upon the option as part of the sale, but upon other things that formed the Commitment, this was relevant to the issue of whether Royal Trust was negligent, as the plaintiffs alleged before Justice Perell.
CanLII - 2017 ONSC 5492 (CanLII)

MistyWaters: l’m not going to debate/defend my ongoing litigation before the court of appeal here on Websleuths. I will state the fact that S&U Ltd. did NOT purchase my late father’s group of co’s. The assets were purchased by Barry and Joel Ulster and later....they asked permission to assign the assets to S&U from the Royal Trust. The cornerstone to my legal claim is did my cousin have an ad hoc fiduciary duty. In other words, did the option, a personal covenant imply an undertaking for Barry to act in good faith and honour the 20% to me and my brothers. This case could end up in the Supreme Court of Canada.

 

[MistyWaters]

MistyWaters: l’m not going to debate/defend my ongoing litigation before the court of appeal here on Websleuths. I will state the fact that S&U Ltd. did NOT purchase my late father’s group of co’s. The assets were purchased by Barry and Joel Ulster and later....they asked permission to assign the assets to S&U from the Royal Trust. The cornerstone to my legal claim is did my cousin have an ad hoc fiduciary duty. In other words, did the option, a personal covenant imply an undertaking for Barry to act in good faith and honour the 20% to me and my brothers. This case could end up in the Supreme Court of Canada.

Fair enough, thanks for your reply.

It seems there’s still a long road ahead.... JMO If you do take it to the Supreme Court of Canada their decision would only be based upon whether the lower Court made a proper decision in outrightly dismissing the lawsuit. If the Supreme Court ruled it did not, then a trial for the civil suit would proceed. If the outcome of the trial wasn’t satisfactory to you or if the other side appealed, that decision could also be appealed through the province and onward to the Supreme Court. That would involve many, many years.... I do hope you’re able to find peace and fulfillment without allowing a lawsuit to define who you are.

 

[deugirtni]

MistyWaters: l’m not going to debate/defend my ongoing litigation before the court of appeal here on Websleuths. I will state the fact that S&U Ltd. did NOT purchase my late father’s group of co’s. The assets were purchased by Barry and Joel Ulster and later....they asked permission to assign the assets to S&U from the Royal Trust. The cornerstone to my legal claim is did my cousin have an ad hoc fiduciary duty. In other words, did the option, a personal covenant imply an undertaking for Barry to act in good faith and honour the 20% to me and my brothers. This case could end up in the Supreme Court of Canada.

Ending up in the Supreme Court of Canada does not mean a verdict would be different.

 

[deugirtni]

Mayor Tory

KNOW that my participation in The Fifth Estate occurred when the rumour was M/S and the Sherman family and friends were adamantly opposed to such an outrageous suggestion. I believed in the M/S and came forward. Shortly before the doc aired, Gomes held her press conference and the CBC turned on me. The result being: l made the cover of the National Enquirer. The producer’s of the 5 th, Detective Brandon Price, hired gun Tom Klatt and Brian Greenspin all know why l believe it M/S. BTW: absolutely zero of what l know aired on the show or has appeared in any Canadian media outlet.

Are you under orders to hold 'what you know' in confidence?

 

[deugirtni]

MistyWaters: l’m not going to debate/defend my ongoing litigation before the court of appeal here on Websleuths. I will state the fact that S&U Ltd. did NOT purchase my late father’s group of co’s. The assets were purchased by Barry and Joel Ulster and later....they asked permission to assign the assets to S&U from the Royal Trust. The cornerstone to my legal claim is did my cousin have an ad hoc fiduciary duty. In other words, did the option, a personal covenant imply an undertaking for Barry to act in good faith and honour the 20% to me and my brothers. This case could end up in the Supreme Court of Canada.

If Royal Trust had accepted the other offer on the table (which was $100,000 LESS than what BS had offered), would that purchaser have been beholden to the same side agreements to provide for the family of the seller?

 

[deugirtni]

Did you watch the video of him speaking? My impression was he seemed absolutely intent on comparing the relationship of his parents to a “lock and key” but then stumbled on the explanation about why it was an appropriate comparison in placing them both equal.

Mere mention of a lock and key considering access to their home may have been through a realtors lockbox containing a key - maybe just me but I think the reference was deliberate.

Yes, I watched it. I felt he was simply trying to get across that his parents were a match wherein both parts were necessary in order for either one to operate well. Not sure that at the time he was penning his eulogy, he may have considered that someone may have gained unforced entry via lock and key. It's entirely possible that the door wasn't even locked when access was gained (Is it possible HS could have opened the door to someone she knew?). Or that access was gained via the automatic garage door entry system at some point, perhaps even an earlier time (meaning it's possible someone could have been inside already and hanging around waiting for the right opportunity). To me, he was just saying 'ying and yang' type of thing.

I'm not getting what you're referring to when you say he stumbled on his explanation about why it was an appropriate comparison in placing them both equal?

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, I watched it. I felt he was simply trying to get across that his parents were a match wherein both parts were necessary in order for either one to operate well. Not sure that at the time he was penning his eulogy, he may have considered that someone may have gained unforced entry via lock and key. It's entirely possible that the door wasn't even locked when access was gained (Is it possible HS could have opened the door to someone she knew?). Or that access was gained via the automatic garage door entry system at some point, perhaps even an earlier time (meaning it's possible someone could have been inside already and hanging around waiting for the right opportunity). To me, he was just saying 'ying and yang' type of thing.

I'm not getting what you're referring to when you say he stumbled on his explanation about why it was an appropriate comparison in placing them both equal?

Well I’ve never heard of anyone comparing a close relationship between two people to “a lock and a key” (least of all when illegal entrance to their home via a lockbox may have been involved in their deaths).

So that’s possibly why he felt the comparison required an explanation - both a lock and key are indeed “useless on their own” (but in reality, only if the door is locked and must be opened from the outside). I don’t think he was meaning both his parents were useless - he was only referring to the lock and key.

Yes I agree, if he had described it as “ying and yang”, then his comparison wouldn’t have required any further explanation whatsoever.

Why he chose “lock and key” instead, we cannot know but I’d be certain the children do know more than the general public by having assisted in the investigation in some way, considering the homicide team took the lead on about day two. For example, identifying happenings at different times or places, or information regarding names or faces who they know were acquainted or not with their parents, typical requests for assistance that close family members often provide. If not TPS, then possibly by information gleaned through their PI team who was also hired a few days prior to the memorial service iirc.

 

[drama_farmer]

Well I’ve never heard of anyone comparing a close relationship between two people to “a lock and a key” (least of all when illegal entrance to their home via a lockbox may have been involved in their deaths).

Snipped and RBBM

I'm not familiar with the lock and key analogy either, but it appears to be a "thing" or a meme these days, at least when it comes to jewelry for couples:
Lock and key couples | Etsy

 

[dotr]

Snipped and RBBM

I'm not familiar with the lock and key analogy either, but it appears to be a "thing" or a meme these days, at least when it comes to jewelry for couples:
Lock and key couples | Etsy

There is this, obviously an emergency requiring firefighter's help, lol.
Italian woman asks for help from firefighters after losing keys to her chastity belt

 

[2Hope4]

I wonder.... when I enter the house and know someone is coming in behind me, even if in a few hours, I leave the door unlocked for them. Maybe Honey left the door unlocked for Barry?

 

[Kerry Winter]

I noticed what appears to be a significant discrepancy. Either KW had been in the Sherman home or not, but it can’t be both. Kerry, please help me out here if you will, maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’ve stated? And my apologies if this has already been discussed but I don’t recall.

BBM

Beginning @ appx 15:55 into the Feb 2nd Fifth Estate documentary:
“But Kerry Winter says Honey Sherman was not enthusiastic about her husband’s renewed relationship with his cousins. He said she had some tough questions for him at their house one day. <begin KW clip>...... “And I didn’t understand her line of questions. What do you want with my husband or how much money is he giving you and she started to berate me and I remember going...uh leaving that day thinking something was amiss....”

The Fifth Estate interview must’ve taken place after the Jan 26th TPS press conference. Then within only a matter of a few days, to the contrary -

Feb 2nd - WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police (audio of the Warmington/Winter phone conversation can also found on a YouTube video)

“.....Homicide detectives likely asked him if he has ever been inside the 12,000-square-foot mansion where Honey and Barry Sherman were found slain. A friend of the Shermans said he will tell police that Winter was asked by Barry to go to the house more than a dozen years ago to look at the kitchen, which he was hoping to renovate.

Winter says this is not true. “I have never stepped foot inside of 50 Old Colony Road,” he insists....”
WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police

I was in the Sherman’s previous home on Beaverhall Drive....prior to building and moving to Old Colony. I was never invited nor stepped foot in 50 Old Colony.

 

[Kerry Winter]

I noticed what appears to be a significant discrepancy. Either KW had been in the Sherman home or not, but it can’t be both. Kerry, please help me out here if you will, maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’ve stated? And my apologies if this has already been discussed but I don’t recall.

BBM

Beginning @ appx 15:55 into the Feb 2nd Fifth Estate documentary:
“But Kerry Winter says Honey Sherman was not enthusiastic about her husband’s renewed relationship with his cousins. He said she had some tough questions for him at their house one day. <begin KW clip>...... “And I didn’t understand her line of questions. What do you want with my husband or how much money is he giving you and she started to berate me and I remember going...uh leaving that day thinking something was amiss....”

The Fifth Estate interview must’ve taken place after the Jan 26th TPS press conference. Then within only a matter of a few days, to the contrary -

Feb 2nd - WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police (audio of the Warmington/Winter phone conversation can also found on a YouTube video)

“.....Homicide detectives likely asked him if he has ever been inside the 12,000-square-foot mansion where Honey and Barry Sherman were found slain. A friend of the Shermans said he will tell police that Winter was asked by Barry to go to the house more than a dozen years ago to look at the kitchen, which he was hoping to renovate.

Winter says this is not true. “I have never stepped foot inside of 50 Old Colony Road,” he insists....”
WARMINGTON: Sherman cousin Kerry Winter speaks with Toronto Police

I was filmed for hours at the CBC studio BEFORE Gomes press conference!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Well I’ve never heard of anyone comparing a close relationship between two people to “a lock and a key” (least of all when illegal entrance to their home via a lockbox may have been involved in their deaths).
rsbm for space
Yes I agree, if he had described it as “ying and yang”, then his comparison wouldn’t have required any further explanation whatsoever.

Why he chose “lock and key” instead, we cannot know but I’d be certain the children do know more than the general public by having assisted in the investigation in some way, considering the homicide team took the lead on about day two. For example, identifying happenings at different times or places, or information regarding names or faces who they know were acquainted or not with their parents, typical requests for assistance that close family members often provide. If not TPS, then possibly by information gleaned through their PI team who was also hired a few days prior to the memorial service iirc.

The mystery of the strangled billionaires
At their funeral, their son Jonathon called them "yin and yang".

"They completed a circle that encompassed everything important about what it means to be human," he said. "Neither one perfect but together wholly balanced and exceptional."

 

[casesensitive]

Even if the Winter children won in the Supreme Court, I think the amount awarded would be a fraction of the millions that BS had already given them, which they had to pay back. I hope the Winter family has a pro bono agreement with their lawyers, although that doesn't help in having to pay BS's legal fees of $300,000, nor the appeal from his grave for an additional $700,000 in fees.

BS built his company up to 11,000 employees world wide and became a multi-billionaire in the generic pharmaceutical business. KW's father may have been successful in own right, but BS (as lead scientist) was a genius in finding the formula in patented drugs, and reverse engineering the formulations so that he could generically reproduce them. His genius, and business decisions and practises are the reason for his success, and do not equate to what his uncle's success may have been had he lived. If the Supreme Court decides that BS had an ad hoc fiduciary duty, I feel that the one billion dollar claim will be reduced to peanuts. Personally, I think Royal Trust were negligent as trustees., and it angers me that they got off scott free.

In hugely different circumstances, I am reminded of Tim Horton's widow who was bought out by Tim's 50% partner a year after his 1974 death. The company was valued by an independent appraiser for $1.7 million. She rejected the 50% offer of $850,000 so Tim's partner Ron Joyce paid her $1,000,000 even though it put him in financial jeopardy. Joyce went on and built up the company to extraordinary growth and success in the following eighteen years. Seeing Joyce's success, Mrs. Horton sued for $10,000,000, saying she wasn't paid enough for her share. She lost the suit. The similarity between the two cases imo, is people thinking that they should be entitled to huge profits of a wildly successful former family business, sold at market value, many years before. Mrs. Horton had her claims for her law suit, which were rejected by the court, and the Winters had their claims,which have been rejected by the court.

 

[MistyWaters]

I was filmed for hours at the CBC studio BEFORE Gomes press conference!

So CBC Fifth Estate was already preparing the documentary in advance of the official TPS announcement? That’s very interesting and answers the question as to how it was complete and ready for broadcast only one week later.

If I recall correctly via media reports, your initial police interview also occurred later on the very same evening as the Fifth Estate broadcast, Feb 2nd. I admit I wondered if that timing was intentional on the part of TPS as well.

 

[JDG]

I agree with casesensitive. Sometimes, the only ones that win a law suit are the lawyers.

Kerry, I know you are standing by your convictions but I would hate to see you jeopardized by the legal fees.

If you win all the money in the world but can't collect, what good is it?

Many people have enough legal paper to decorate their home but never see a cent.

Just saying......not judging.