CANADA Canada - Ben Tyner, 32, cowboy, horse returned w/o him, Merritt, British Columbia, 26 Jan 2019 - #3

[zecats]

I have to admit I’m not sure what we’re disagreeing about because I understand what you suggesting. The point I’m obviously doing a very poor job of making is the act of stealing a horse in a truck and trailer from a ranch does not result in the death of the owner. That is why I see theft of the horse and murder to be two separate crimes.

There have been other cases in the past where an arrest on a lesser charge can also result in a confession because obviously the person who took and transported the horse from NR (assuming that occurred) must’ve had knowledge of Ben’s death, even if more than one person was involved.

What I'm saying is, and you certainly do not have to agree, is that I do not see this as the death of an owner as a result of stealing his horse, but rather the stealing of a horse as a result of the death (murder) of its owner. The murder came first, then the horse "theft." My opinion, of course.
But if they can arrest someone for taking Gunny and that then leads to justice for Ben , all the better.

 

[teedie2]

OK, I missed something. Ben was definitely murdered? He didn't have an accidental fall or whatever, and die from that with his body being hidden by brush or rocks, or whatever? That would be a reason for Gunny to be properly saddled, etc, if an accident happened while Ben was riding Gunny. Need to go back to first thread and see if I skipped something.

I am so sorry that he didn't come back safely.

 

[zecats]

OK, I missed something. Ben was definitely murdered? He didn't have an accidental fall or whatever, and die from that with his body being hidden by brush or rocks, or whatever? That would be a reason for Gunny to be properly saddled, etc, if an accident happened while Ben was riding Gunny. Need to go back to first thread and see if I skipped something.

I am so sorry that he didn't come back safely.

Disappearance of B.C. cowboy Ben Tyner 'likely' criminal, say RCMP

The sudden disappearance of 32-year-old Ben Tyner near Merritt has switched from a missing person case to a criminal investigation.

RCMP Sgt. Janelle Shoihet says she can’t share why, but police now believe the manager of the Nicola Ranch could have been a targeted victim.

“Initially, there was nothing that was definitive in determining that it was criminally related — just out of character. But now, after putting all the pieces of the puzzle together … the investigators in the Southeast District can now say that they believe that Mr. Tyner did not go missing of his own volition. It is suspicious and likely, there’s some criminality related to his disappearance.”

 

[MistyWaters]

OK, I missed something. Ben was definitely murdered? He didn't have an accidental fall or whatever, and die from that with his body being hidden by brush or rocks, or whatever? That would be a reason for Gunny to be properly saddled, etc, if an accident happened while Ben was riding Gunny. Need to go back to first thread and see if I skipped something.

I am so sorry that he didn't come back safely.

“It is suspicious and likely, there’s some criminality related to his disappearance.”

There’s been a fair amount of discussion interpreting the above sentence. I do notice the RCMP have hedged all their statements with the circumstances surround the disappearance of Ben “may” or “could” involve criminality but they haven’t yet stated Ben’s disappearance is being investigated as a homicide investigation.

Other than a recent three day search of the ranch, no further organized search efforts to attempt to locate his body have been announced.

 

[Trudie]

OK, I missed something. Ben was definitely murdered? He didn't have an accidental fall or whatever, and die from that with his body being hidden by brush or rocks, or whatever? That would be a reason for Gunny to be properly saddled, etc, if an accident happened while Ben was riding Gunny. Need to go back to first thread and see if I skipped something.

I am so sorry that he didn't come back safely.

Sadly, LE referenced Ben’s “remains”. I think towards the end of thread 2 you can find more info.

 

[zecats]

Sadly, LE referenced Ben’s “remains”. I think towards the end of thread 2 you can find more info.

Post #1118 by @sillybilly thread #2

 

[Trudie]

Post #1118 by @sillybilly thread #2

The nature of the search was telling, I think.
Logic & comon sense go a long way in figuring these things out.
Poor Ben, I believe he felt he could revitalize a suffering ranch, was full of ideas, eager for his first calving season.
Only to have His dreams snuffed out less than 90 days at his new position.

 

[ktm44]

“It is suspicious and likely, there’s some criminality related to his disappearance.”

There’s been a fair amount of discussion interpreting the above sentence. I do notice the RCMP have hedged all their statements with the circumstances surround the disappearance of Ben “may” or “could” involve criminality but they haven’t yet stated Ben’s disappearance is being investigated as a homicide investigation.

Other than a recent three day search of the ranch, no further organized search efforts to attempt to locate his body have been announced.

Like yourself, I'm struggling with RCMP statements and the abbreviated search. I believe that a lot of critical investigation time was lost in the beginning, when they focused on searching for a missing person and worry about what was missed, what evidence left with Ben's family.

They aren't obligated to share details of an investigation but I'm left to wonder how carefully his cell phone was checked, if anyone knows if any posessions were missing, if the barn, house and Ben's truck and trailer were checked for traces of blood, if the trailer was in the condition Ben normally kept it (some guys clean after every use and others don't).

Someone with Forestry mentioned on FB that many areas weren't searched and the initial search focused on the area where the horse was found and search parties stayed close to trails, I'm left wondering if further searches have been conducted and if anyone has been out with cadaver dogs.

I know we have seen convictions in the past without a body but I believe this one would be very difficult to prosecute without some very clear proof of cause of death and an actual crime scene and right now, I don't think the RCMP have either.

 

[Trudie]

@ktm44 it saddens me to hear a local express concern RCMP missed things (possibly) at the onset.
I do believe they have a wealth of clues, and the suspect/s will soon face charges. So few had access to Gunny.

 

[MistyWaters]

Like yourself, I'm struggling with RCMP statements and the abbreviated search. I believe that a lot of critical investigation time was lost in the beginning, when they focused on searching for a missing person and worry about what was missed, what evidence left with Ben's family.

They aren't obligated to share details of an investigation but I'm left to wonder how carefully his cell phone was checked, if anyone knows if any posessions were missing, if the barn, house and Ben's truck and trailer were checked for traces of blood, if the trailer was in the condition Ben normally kept it (some guys clean after every use and others don't).

Someone with Forestry mentioned on FB that many areas weren't searched and the initial search focused on the area where the horse was found and search parties stayed close to trails, I'm left wondering if further searches have been conducted and if anyone has been out with cadaver dogs.

I know we have seen convictions in the past without a body but I believe this one would be very difficult to prosecute without some very clear proof of cause of death and an actual crime scene and right now, I don't think the RCMP have either.

Good points, I also wonder about the thoroughness of the searches in the back country and am just not quite certain, going by what the RCMP have stated to date, that they have enough evidence to conclusively point in any one direction, aside from the circumstances surrounding his disappearance certainly do appear “suspicious”.

The Forestry comment is interesting. The quote below published April 10th leads me to believe LE do not consider their searches to be complete, considering that first week was coordinated as a rescue effort. I suppose it’s possible searches are continuing with no need to alert the media because I agree, doing their utmost to attempt to locate a body is critical to any future prosecution.

“.....Sgt. Shoihet says the search would resume at the ranch and then police would retrace their steps now that the weather has changed.

In January, when the snow was covered, you know you’re not going to be able to see everything,” she said. “You know you’re hopeful at that point that Mr. Tyner was going to be found alive and that this wouldn’t be a recovery. That being said, you never know, stranger things have happened, so we have to hold out that little bit of hope.”

The previous search included RCMP officers and volunteers on foot and horseback, as well as in helicopters, vehicles and snowmobiles...”
RCMP resume search for missing B.C. cowboy Ben Tyner, last seen in January

 

[ktm44]

@ktm44 it saddens me to hear a local express concern RCMP missed things (possibly) at the onset.
I do believe they have a wealth of clues, and the suspect/s will soon face charges. So few had access to Gunny.

I understand why the initial focus was simply on a missing person but it does seem that things have evolved. That general area seems to have a few young men who have gone missing under odd circumstances.

I also read that Ben's horse had thrown a shoe and if that's the case, I keep wondering about the rocky (and at that time icy) area that the Forestry worker mentioned on FB, as having not been searched. In my opinion, that shoe needs to be found, rocky terrain would be a logical reason a horse would throw a shoe and may provide greater insight.

Whatever happened, it's pretty obvious that where Gunny was found was not where she became separated from Ben and if somebody went to the trouble of dumping a horse and a body, it would stand to reason that it was intended to look like a riding a riding accident.

Hopefully, the RCMP conducted a very thorough search of his posessions, devices, residence, barn, outbuildings, truck and trailer and just haven't made any formal statements.

I disagree with the amount of people that had access to the horse because she was likely in a smallish pen or pasture but the wearther was warm so she was unlikely in the barn but I do feel, few would know what tack Ben used and if he stored his tack in his trailer, tack room or in his residence. If Gunny's shoe was found where she was held, I would strongly suggest that Ben did not ride the day he went missing.

 

[Trudie]

I disagree with the amount of people that had access to the horse because she was likely in a smallish pen or pasture but the wearther was warm so she was unlikely in the barn but I do feel, few would know what tack Ben used and if he stored his tack in his trailer, tack room or in his residence. If Gunny's shoe was found where she was held, I would strongly suggest that Ben did not ride the day he went missing.

Do you think many had access to Gunny? By few, I mean I ruled out Gunny abducted by a stranger.
The missing shoe is like the needle in the haystack, imo.
I have no doubt Ben would not ride with a shoe off,. It does happen that a horse throws one out on the trail though.
I also don’t think he rode the day he went missing.
It is MOO police are all over the suspect/s & an arrest is coming soon.

 

[ktm44]

Do you think many had access to Gunny? By few, I mean I ruled out Gunny abducted by a stranger.
The missing shoe is like the needle in the haystack, imo.
I have no doubt Ben would not ride with a shoe off,. It does happen that a horse throws one out on the trail though.
I also don’t think he rode the day he went missing.
It is MOO police are all over the suspect/s & an arrest is coming soon.

The shoe would be very difficult to find, unless it's at the ranch but I have a feeling that if one searches, the yet unsearched, rocky area, one may find a ravine below that may very well lead them to a body.

I doubt very much that Gunny was taken by a stranger but my opinion is based on the belief that she was tacked up. If something happened as Ben was preparing to ride out, she may have already been tacked up. Barns are never locked, tack rooms are seldom locked and given the weather was great, she may have been out in a small pasture and not many have locks.

Given that this happened on a weekend at a time of year, when few people would be working, there wouldn't be many people around to ask questions of anyone in the yard and that person in the yard to ask questions was very likely Ben but that would be based on the idea that the manager's residence is centrally located and not off site.

I don't think he went riding the day he went missing but if he did, he certainly didn't plan on going far because it would get dark about 5:00 and and he would have planned to be back by then, rather than risking a predator encounter.

The cell phone is the big mystery to me. Even without cell service, most phones have a compass and camera, which would both be helpful. The fact that it was left behind suggests, a meeting or something that wasn't to be interrupted or a meeting that was interrupted.

 

[Trudie]

The cell phone is the big mystery to me. Even without cell service, most phones have a compass and camera, which would both be helpful. The fact that it was left behind suggests, a meeting or something that wasn't to be interrupted or a meeting that was interrupted.

@superbee posted she gets cell service in the area.
I agree, the compass & camera would be helpful. Ben seemed to enjoy taking photos. It’s too coincidental the first time he leaves phone at home he goes missing.
I think his murderer put the phone in Ben’s truck.
There’s prob horseshoes all over the area. When we ride in the forest, we see them all the time. Even if found, it would prove nothing. No one ewould know the day it was left where found. It might not even match up to Gunny again.
Idk if the photo is still up, I posted Ben’s house on thread 1.

 

[ktm44]

I’m not so sure it fair to say the prior manager was “let go” because often that refers to someone who is involuntarily fired. Sometimes long term employees leave due to an advantageous arrangement for all concerned. There’s another online article referring to the ex-ranch manager’s new employment as ranch manager at a very large and prestigious Alberta ranch that was recently donated to support the University of Calgary’s veterinary program. He’d worked at Nicola Ranch for 19 years and obviously came with highly regarded references.

Regardless, in April, 2017 Nicola Ranch decided to contract out its haying operations and so the services of a ranch manager were no longer required according to this report.
Bradner R Farms assumes haying operation at Nicola Ranch - Merritt Herald
“The ranch will retain a full-time cowboy crew of four to manage its cattle, Williams said.”

I’ve not noticed it mentioned exactly why Ben was hired in Nov, 2018 other than speculation. There was almost a year and a half gap in time.

The specific ranches impacted by the discovery of bovine TB in October, 2018 haven’t been mentioned either, other than the location of Nicola Valley. So my speculation is just that, more speculation.

However the report below does happen to mention extra staff might need to be hired and the timing is interesting to note as well. I’m not aware of exactly what added workload or what strict protocols and controls must be put in place but I can understand the seriousness of a bovine TB scare, even in the immediate area, and why it could prompt the hiring of a ranch manager by an absentee owner. The disease has the potential to cause an entire herd to be put down if the risk is not closely monitored.

“CIFA has placed movement controls on approximately 18,000 animals in 25 herds as the investigation continues.

“Testing, humane destruction, and disposal are carried out as required,” the statement reads.

“They have a very strict protocol to follow,” Boon told the Herald, noting sometimes ranchers question or challenge it.

“For a lot of guys there are other things they need to be doing. They need to hire extra staff a lot of times.....”
Bovine disease traced to Nicola Valley cows - Merritt Herald

How this might connect to Ben’s disappearance is unknown because the RCMP have given us no inkling of a potential motive of others involved, aside from declaring circumstances of his disappearance to be suspicious. They’ve also never stated if they believe work related matters to be suspected. It’s still one big question mark for now, hopefully not for long though.

I would suggest that the reason for hiring a manager again isn't a huge mystery but more based on the need to have a full time employee on site and someone with skills to manage seasonal/short term help. It's cheaper to hire one person with multiple skills rather than several with unique skills.

Bovine TB is certainly an issue but not as much as you may think and the herds in Jenner (who are friends of mine) were believed to have been affected by an out of control elk population in the area.

H of A vets test herds that are suspected to be affected and the government pays ranchers for herds seized. Herd protocols would mean that any infected herds, in the Jenner case, the cattle belonged to more than one rancher because they had been on a community lease pasture, are all quarrantined and tested. If you are found to have an infected herd, the strict protocols relate more to the fact that you can't sell anything.

There is no vaccination and no way to cure so the only additional work I know of would be feeding livestock under quarrantine and that doesn't really take much manpower.

Ranchers understand the nature of the disease and know that infection may happen in certain areas. It's not something they want but not something they would blame someone else for. Cattlemen work for decades to develop and ideal herd and they certainly do dig in when the government comes to tell them they're taking a lifetime of work but they also know that the safety of our meat supply is vital.

 

[ktm44]

Makes one wonder how they could afford to hire Ben. He was a college-educated, experienced ranch manger/cowboy. And for him to move away from home and accept this opportunity . I'd think he'd need a certain amount of salary. Housing, maybe vehicle comes with, so that's a plus..but isn't that always the case?

Course he could have been doing it for the experience and the joy of trying it out in yet another country. Still, why hire a manger if money was /is tight? IMO

Ranch managers aren't as highly paid as people believe because they are provided housing and the smart ones negotiate a percentage of the calf crop. Like other cowboys have the ability train outside horses for additional income and it does seem Ben did some nice leatherwork as well.

Ben's job would have been to save the ranch money, decrease costs and increase profitability. I don't believe the owners have enough cattle experience to handle it on their own, even with a couple of seasonal employees.

 

[Trudie]

Ranch managers aren't as highly paid as people believe because they are provided housing and the smart ones negotiate a percentage of the calf crop. Like other cowboys have the ability train outside horses for additional income and it does seem Ben did some nice leatherwork as well.

Ben's job would have been to save the ranch money, decrease costs and increase profitability. I don't believe the owners have enough cattle experience to handle it on their own, even with a couple of seasonal employees.

Reading older articles reveals to me the cash flow issue was/is significant & he was hired to get NR out of the red.
The owner might have been advised by his accounting firm to get a pro GM.
I doubt Ben accepted less than the going rate for his profession. He could have chosen any ranch, imo. He certainly had no prob moving for work.

 

[MistyWaters]

Another piece of information glaringly missing - if police know the whereabouts of Ben that Saturday night, where was that at and who was he with? Did he tell anyone his plans for Sunday, the next day?

And who are these “other ranchers” and do they know for a fact Ben had searched for stray cattle on Swakum Ridge in the past and if so did he ride there? Did he always go alone? Or were they just guessing it was a possible explanation for his horse being found on Swakum Mountain? This would be information the RCMP would we aware of.

“RCMP said earlier this week that other ranchers believe Tyner rode to an area known as Swakum Ridge, northwest of Merritt, and may have been searching for stray cattle belonging to the ranch....”
Search for missing Merritt cowboy suspended

****

A possible and difficult scenario, LE may have a a theory but at this time lack sufficient evidence in order to obtain a search warrant to search on privately owned backcountry land belonging to a suspect.

When Is A Warrant Needed For Police to Search Premises or Property?
“....The police must give evidence to the judge or justice of the peace to satisfy her that reasonable and probable grounds for the invasion of privacy exist before the search and seizure will be authorized by way of a warrant or court order...”
B.C. Civil Liberties Association: When Can Police Search Your Vehicle, Premises or Property

 

[Trudie]

I would suggest that the reason for hiring a manager again isn't a huge mystery but more based on the need to have a full time employee on site and someone with skills to manage seasonal/short term help. It's cheaper to hire one person with multiple skills rather than several with unique skills.

Bovine TB is certainly an issue but not as much as you may think and the herds in Jenner (who are friends of mine) were believed to have been affected by an out of control elk population in the area.

H of A vets test herds that are suspected to be affected and the government pays ranchers for herds seized. Herd protocols would mean that any infected herds, in the Jenner case, the cattle belonged to more than one rancher because they had been on a community lease pasture, are all quarrantined and tested. If you are found to have an infected herd, the strict protocols relate more to the fact that you can't sell anything.

There is no vaccination and no way to cure so the only additional work I know of would be feeding livestock under quarrantine and that doesn't really take much manpower.

Ranchers understand the nature of the disease and know that infection may happen in certain areas. It's not something they want but not something they would blame someone else for. Cattlemen work for decades to develop and ideal herd and they certainly do dig in when the government comes to tell them they're taking a lifetime of work but they also know that the safety of our meat supply is vital.

Exactly. Cattle get sick, ranches deal with it. A few TB cases is not a plausible reason to bring a GM from out of the country, imo. Certainly not reason to bring on more monthly expenses to a ranch already experiencing “cash flow” issues. Moo
Best wishes for your friend & their herd.

 

[rb63]

Another piece of information glaringly missing - if police know the whereabouts of Ben that Saturday night, where was that at and who was he with? Did he tell anyone his plans for Sunday, the next day?

And who are these “other ranchers” and do they know for a fact Ben had searched for stray cattle on Swakum Ridge in the past and if so did he ride there? Did he always go alone? Or were they just guessing it was a possible explanation for his horse being found on Swakum Mountain? This would be information the RCMP would we aware of.

“RCMP said earlier this week that other ranchers believe Tyner rode to an area known as Swakum Ridge, northwest of Merritt, and may have been searching for stray cattle belonging to the ranch....”
Search for missing Merritt cowboy suspended

****

A possible and difficult scenario, LE may have a a theory but at this time lack sufficient evidence in order to obtain a search warrant to search on privately owned backcountry land belonging to a suspect.

When Is A Warrant Needed For Police to Search Premises or Property?
“....The police must give evidence to the judge or justice of the peace to satisfy her that reasonable and probable grounds for the invasion of privacy exist before the search and seizure will be authorized by way of a warrant or court order...”
B.C. Civil Liberties Association: When Can Police Search Your Vehicle, Premises or Property

There is quite a few other ranches in the area.. Some small others bigger like NR and Douglas.