CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

[Donamena]

<modsnip>

Could we start with some overlapping maps here - few if any markings? Newmarket to Queensville along Leslie Street, Leslie St at Ravenshoe Road going east to Udora and Vallentyne where one has to make a crazy kind of jog to Lake Ridge Road, Lake Ridge south to Concession 4 and the distance from there to Highway 2.

It wouldn't hurt to show the terrain south of Ravenshoe Road towards Sunderland, if someone had a few moments.

Pretty please eh'/y'all?

Aaaaah, y'all be mockin me, chirren.
Fa true, I'm not there so I can't tell,or as we say in New Orleans, I don be knowin.
I just need a map w/ timeline super-imposed.

On the probate records: forgive if I'm simplistic here, but I'm not sure about Ontario succession laws. Whoever owns the concession now (we have that term from colonial Louisiana) would have inherited from a former owner, or bought it from an estate. The property description should be in the probate records, along with whomever owned it then.
Surely they couldn't have obscured/glossed over it as well?

If its gone, then your problems are even greater than I thought.

From my myopic Louisiana view, in a small town (I have lived in them)everyone knows everything about everybody.

Who were the SOs then, or SOs-in-the-making? I know little of means, motive, etc of sexual predators/killers. How early do they start? Is there anyway to get an idea of what possible group this (ayiie, that's a Louisiana term, forgot) could have come from, in terms of age, family, etc? Why do I get the idea that the killer is well-known & influential? I feel as if all of this is in cotton wool. Maybe it's just me.

 

[orora]

Why do I get the idea that the killer is well-known & influential? I feel as if all of this is in cotton wool. Maybe it's just me.

Ha, this may very well be in effect in this case. Some points that would go to that seem to fall on deaf ears. Everyone seems to have pet theory or prime suspect they wish to be entertained more so than other possibilities. At various times I have mentioned that the group of people who had been molesting and raping Christine included teenage boys, one apparently somewhat older. There are family members of a Police officer involved, a member who apparently went on to attain a fairly prominent position within LE. Little is known or being said of that connection on here or anywhere's else. If one point in this regard could be a trigger, Christine's brother reports that shortly before her murder, he had told his sister that performing those sort of sex acts was wrong and she shouldn't be doing it anymore. Christine apparently said so to the boys. If anyone had fear that Cj may talk some day, that possibility was never brought home and made more clear as then.

The reports are riddled with examples of Police ineptitude, botched procedure and lost and obstructed evidence. So much so that it is hard to make heads or tails of to this very day. The Police member was apparently a member of the Police detachment investigating Cj's murder after her body was found miles away from home in his area of jurisdiction.

There is more than one side to every story and there is another side to this than has or will likely ever be told. We are saddled with some reconstructionist history and a revisionist obstructed approach here. imo

 

[dotr]

Not based on anything except my imagination, hope no one minds- just wanted to offer a alternative scenario. imo.


If I throw my 2 cents here, off the top of my head (well been thinking about it for awhile) what I could picture is a spoiled sort of kid/young person, who was bullied/demeaned by an older sibling and who might have heard about CJ's previous sexual abuse and decided (perhaps on impulse)to "get some" for himself. Picture him somehow as someone who played with, or wish he could play with dolls. CJ, became the doll, but first he/they had to make her 'inanimate", 'take her apart", to see how "it" CJ,worked.The "Barbie doll" was harder and maybe not as fun to destruct than he thought it would be, so he dressed her up in clothes, threw in her "accessory piece", the
recorder- and for good measure, maybe a nasty laugh- twisted "barbie's"legs open, cause that is what those kind of "dolls" deserve.
DNA has not been located since, because times have changed, condoms used, and perhaps he has found an "acceptable" outlet to "play" since.

 

[Woodland]

Just out of curiosity dotr, could the older sibling alternatively be a parent? Someone who abused the killer (their son) or arranged and watched them be abused by others?

I like the 'he couldn't destroy an inanimate object' meaning he could not rid himself of the shame that was forced on him? So he had to seek out a real 'doll' to 'help him'?

 

[Dedpanman]

<modsnip>

Been re-reading materials and I think Orora and I are going to continue to lock horns over the Janet/Ken arrival time at the house (or, we'll just have to agree to disagree).

When Janet and Ken arrived home, expecting to find Christine in the house - and having seen the evidence that she had been there (her school bag, the mail she brought in) - Janet looked at the clock and it was 4:10 pm.

When Janet finally called the police that evening, and was making the report, she declared their arrival time at 4:10. The police verified that the clock she used was working and was displaying the correct time.

The Jessops were consistent on that 4:10 arrival time for quite some time (until pressured by the police to change their time to allow their prime suspect a suitable window to commit the abduction).

I prefer to believe their arrival time of 4:10 pm. Maybe 4:15 pm.

What are my choices? A mother worried about her missing child &#8211; desperate to give the police all the useful information they might need &#8211; or, some clerk in an office somewhere in Newmarket who says that Janet may have been there at that office later than she initially thought?

It's a judgement call...
But, that's the way I lean.

 

[dotr]

Just out of curiosity dotr, could the older sibling alternatively be a parent? Someone who abused the killer (their son) or arranged and watched them be abused by others?

I like the 'he couldn't destroy an inanimate object' meaning he could not rid himself of the shame that was forced on him? So he had to seek out a real 'doll' to 'help him'?

Since it is an "imagined" scenario, it could be a parent... the reason a sibling came to mind, was due to thinking that a young person talking with friends about the abuse, may have been overheard by an impressionable and crazy perp.
Comments could have been made by an overbearing mother.
One thing that one can surely imagine, imo - is that the perp was himself abused/ belittled (probably by a man) and as suggested , the perp could not deal with the sense of shame and projected it unto poor little Christine.

 

[orora]

re:dpm-

Been re-reading materials and I think Orora and I are going to continue to lock horns over the Janet/Ken arrival time at the house (or, we'll just have to agree to disagree).

When Janet and Ken arrived home, expecting to find Christine in the house - and having seen the evidence that she had been there (her school bag, the mail she brought in) - Janet looked at the clock and it was 4:10 pm.

When Janet finally called the police that evening, and was making the report, she declared their arrival time at 4:10. The police verified that the clock she used was working and was displaying the correct time.

The Jessops were consistent on that 4:10 arrival time for quite some time (until pressured by the police to change their time to allow their prime suspect a suitable window to commit the abduction).

Not necessarily going to "lock horns", always interested in the source though before considering the possibilities. Was this from Kaufman or Makin or?

Not sure what all is accepted by everyone here, I read over on the other site while looking for a quote for someone else, that towserdog (Ken Jessop) is not as accepted a source as I thought. Not sure about Janet J. here either?

 

[jobo]

As far as I can determine, the Dentist appointment was for 3:30 and Brother was 10 minutes late, which means he was in the chair by 3:40.
And then him and Mom made it from Newmarket to Queensville by 4:10? In my opinion, that is pushing it...It is only about 11 kms. though.
I have read things such as Brother had a new watch on and was having trouble with the time that day....and same with the clock at home in their kitchen.

Mom could've been feeling guilty (and judged) for leaving a 9 year old home alone, and may have fudged the times a bit....
Seems to me the family was just running late that day....they originally slept in, and brother ended up with the day off since he also had the dentist appointment later on. They still sent Christine to school though.

The only time I can totally agree to is the time Christine got off the bus...I believe it was 3:50.
IF my scenerio, whereas Christine was abducted from her home (driveway)...is correct, then it would only take a minute or two to take her. In that case there was plenty of time.

The latest discussion is more along the lines of who I think may have murdered Christine....someone affiliated with the (previous) sexual abuse...someone who knew about it. This also gives me the Motive, explains the overkill, the rage.

Woodland: To answer your question from a few days ago....I was thinking of D.Silverman (Blackwater/Sunderland) and R. Brown (abducted from Pefferlaw, never found).

 

[Dedpanman]

re:dpm-


Not necessarily going to "lock horns", always interested in the source though before considering the possibilities. Was this from Kaufman or Makin or?

Sorry. My source is Makin. I will consolidate the facts regarding the issue(s) of arrival time from RR and present them - as a contrast to what the Kaufman Report says. Then people are free to make up their own minds based on all the key "facts". Thanks for pressing me.

 

[Dedpanman]

Mom could've been feeling guilty (and judged) for leaving a 9 year old home alone, and may have fudged the times a bit....

Good point, and I have considered that as well. I'm not inflexible on this arrival time... I'd like to test it, by making a case for the 4:10/4:15 pm arrival time and see how it holds up to scrutiny.

 

[Donamena]

Buenos Dias, compañeros...or y'all..

I'm going to be dull, annoyingly American, & politely Canadian (I have some ancestry there, in the Trois Rivières area) In order for my mind to propel itself out of lassitude, I will ask a few more repetitive questions, since I'm working on my own timeline. Please be patient. The temp dropped here & I'm a swamp bunny. The furthest north I go is a table by the window at the Empress for tea time. Or Canadian oatmeal, the finest in the world. Or Canadian apples, e.g., Ambrosia. Or can discuss the time I had too much scrumpy in Victoria & nearly missed the ferry to Port Angeles?

Back from OT: I had lunch Monday at a small café in this *advertiser censored* end of nowhere where I physically reside, & the high Sherrif & a few worthies held forth on action & reaction theories in human contact. One very interesting point that has been banging in my head was the comment 'you have 3 seconds' from point A, initial contact-------to point B, your reaction.

Do I start at 3:50? Bus drop-off? The only +- most accurate time involved?
Friend at park by _________pm
'seen' at store at _________pm
Mom at dentist by ________pm
Brother gets late by _______pm
'seen' by elderly couple in a car with man at ______pm

What did brother have done at dentist in such a short time? My dentist times seldom run under 30 min. And dentist to home takes how long?

The doll was inside, correct? It stayed inside, no? So somewhere between 3:50 & when she vanishes?? So she picks up mail, goes in.....the bike, the recorder, the doll, the mail & vanishing. How much times is this? Help this....no I'm not a Yank...help this...veg gardener in the coastal south, figure this out.

Deadpanman, did they possibly think the skull was somewhat inappropriate for a sleuthing forum? Seriously?? It would so work here. But we are a rude & crass lot....

 

[Dedpanman]

Donamena - I will help you out with some of this in time... but, I'm a little tangled up in things at the moment. I like what you're doing.

Maybe some others can help?

Here's a nugget that will make most shake their heads:

On page 59 of RR first edition, Makin says that at the time of Christine's abduction, there were 140 known sex offenders living in the area.

 

[Woodland]

I would never consider Americans rude or crass Donamena. Last night I watched 'Behind Enemy Lines' again (a movie I can watch over and over) - you guys take 'no man left behind seriously' and it is most admirable. Apollo 13 is another example.

Is there a more beautiful sight than a US military chopper taking off and swooping in for the rescue? I think not.

Here we have a solvable case yet Canadians are leaving this little girl behind. LE gives a scenario that doesn't work, refuses to confirm if DNA exists in our National Databank and one of our leading news programs won't help sort out any questions. Not to mention the other forum. Shameful.

PS - I lived in Dubai for many years and worked near where US aircraft carriers came in for re-supply, so would go dockside on my lunch hour to watch. Whoa! Have you seen out itty bitty military boats?

Thank-you for taking the time to ask about Christine.

 

[Woodland]

Will try to answer some of your questions Donamena.

The bus drop-off time was no later than 3:50 pm, but could have been a few minutes earlier.

Leslie, the friend, was at the store/park about 4:00 pm, their usual time to meet up. L did not see Christine.

'Seen' by store owner 'between 3:30 and 4:00 pm'. 'Seen' by Atkinson standing outside store talking to other children about 4:00 pm. 'A child was seen struggling in a vehicle' by a couple driving through the intersection where the store is at about 4:05 pm - no one ever said it was Christine.

Mom and brother reported 10 minutes late for a 3:30 pm dentist appointment. Appointment was for a check-up. Brother reported having to wait 5 or so minutes for Mom to return from running errands. Distance home is 10 or 11 kilometers (6 to 7 miles). This distance varied between a 50 and 80 km (30 to 50 mile) an hour speed zone.

Arrival time first report as 4:10 pm by Mom and brother to LE later that evening. They later reported being coerced to change this time to 4:30 or 4:35 pm at trial. After exoneration they re-stated the time to have been 4:10 pm.

No one had a reason to note precise times when going about their usual business - until later on.

Christine was buried with what is known to be her only Cabbage Patch doll. There has never been a report of the doll being anywhere but in the home that day.

Hope this will help.

 

[bessie]

MOD NOTE: WS does not does not allow members to bash this site on other boards, and conversely, bashing other message boards and their members is NOT allowed here.

If you have a beef with someone outside of Websleuths, don't bring it here. And if you're coming here to carry on a conflict that started somewhere else, forget it. Ain't happenin'!

If you post a comment about a case player, back it up with a link to MSM.

Final Warning!

Abuse / Flaming / Derogatory Comments:

Abusive Comments, Flaming, or derogatory insults or comments are strictly against the rules. If you disagree with another member&#8217;s point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. If someone posts to discuss their personal problems or seeks help from other forums members, please do not respond unless you have something positive or helpful to add. If you find yourself being flamed or insulted by another member, please do not dignify that person with a response. Notify a moderator and let us handle it.

Baiting /Trolling / Inciting Conflict:

&#8220;Trolling&#8221; or making posts with the intention of creating problems on the forums is obviously against the forum guidelines. This includes registering an alternative ID for the sole purpose of creating problems on the forums. &#8220;Troll ID&#8217;s&#8221; will be locked immediately and permanently, and the primary account holder may be banned from WS. Members that visit WS only to participate in &#8220;conflict&#8221; threads may be designated as Trolling and have their account temporarily or permanently suspended. WS also reserves the right to require a certain number of posts, length of membership, or other criteria be met to allow posting on certain topics. We have zero tolerance for members that create posts with the sole purpose of antagonizing other members.

Attacking WS Moderators & Administrators:

Posting a thread to comment on, question, or criticize moderator or administrator action is not appropriate in a public forum. Please utilize the board&#8217;s Private Message function, or email staff if you wish to discuss these issues. As long as you bring up your concerns maturely and civilly to the moderator or administrator in question, we will do our best to address your concerns fairly and promptly.

Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[marikesh]

I'm sorry Bessie, for my part. I should never have taken matters in my own hands and retorted to unfair posts against another forum. Lesson learned. Thank you.

 

[Dedpanman]

The doll was inside, correct? It stayed inside, no?

Donamena, the issue of the Cabbage Patch doll, and where it was - and where it was found/if it was found - is a pretty important fulcrum point to figuring out the most likely scenario of the abduction and where it happened.

The truth is, we don't really know if Christine had one Cabbage Patch doll or two, or several.

We do know that she had plans to meet her friend Leslie Chipman at the park around 4 pm and the girls were going to take their dolls there.

We do know Christine was buried with a Cabbagepatch doll.

We don't know if this is the one that she would have taken to the park. It could have been a replacement doll purchase for the occasion of her burial, or it could have been one of her other many dolls.

If the doll she was buried with is the doll she would have taken to the park, we don't know where it was found. And that’s an odd omission, or missed point of fact in terms of the investigation.

If it's not the same doll she took to the park, we don't have information about the actual doll she was going to take to the park. Was it ever found, or not? Neither of our sources deal with that point, and in my opinion, it's of vital importance to sorting out the most likely sequence of events and the most likely abduction location.

The recorder comes up in discussion a lot, but... where was the doll she was to take to the park?

 

[Woodland]

And, by the way -- I’ve just stumbled upon a bookmark in my copy of Makin’s book from some time ago. Page 398 – detailing the second autopsy. There it is...! As they opened the coffin: “When it came, no one was prepared for the sight of Christine’s Cabbage Patch doll.” Is this the doll she was supposed to take to the park that day with Leslie Chipman? If it is – then there is the strong evidence that she never went to the store, as she would have taken the doll with her. Her doll was at home - and it was buried with her. <---- She had one doll Victoria Kadi - http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...L8yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Ve8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=2950,6911966

This is from page 11 - an article from the Ottawa Citizen regarding the Cabbage Patch doll. The article indicates only 1 doll was owned by Christine, but not necessarily definitive.

 

[Dedpanman]

“The red bicycle still stands in the garage, near the window ledge where Christine left her doll box.” – Ottawa Citizen, Dec. 24, 1984.

Implication: this is the box her Cabbage Patch doll came in when purchased. The question that arises from that implication: If Christine left it there, did she use the box to transport her doll? Or, is the box just sitting there in the garage, not really used for anything because she’s not ready to send it off with the other household garbage? In other words, it has no bearing on the case if it’s just sitting there used for nothing. It has larger implications if she used it to transport her doll around in. Does that seem likely? That she would use it to transport her doll? I can’t really picture it, so I’m leaning towards it being a meaningless detail.

“... the adoption papers for Victoria Kati, Christine’s Cabbage Patch Kid doll, is pinned to the wall.” – Ottawa Citizen, Dec. 24, 1984.

Implication: at the time of her abduction, Christine had one Cabbage Patch doll.

So, we’re still missing two vital pieces of information: Was that doll (Victoria Kati) ever found – and if so – where? And, is that the same doll she was buried with?

The answer to that question has huge implications for this case.

Think about the ramifications if the doll was found in her room...
Or, in the kitchen.
Or, in the garage.
Or, not at all.

The recorder goes with her... and is found.
The doll... doesn’t go. Or, it does go, and is never found.

I wish someone could clear up that piece.
And, it’s just amazing to me that the issue of the “Victoria Kati” doll is not dealt with in RR or KR.

It’s not likely that it’s a police “hold-back”, because this case went to trial twice. Somewhere lies the answer to that little mystery. Perhaps in one of the trial transcripts? I wish someone could find it.

 

[Dedpanman]

Read the last two paragraphs of the Ottawa Citizen article. It reads:

The girl&#8217;s father says the worst part is not knowing whether their daughter is dead or alive. &#8220;If she&#8217;s dead, the least the (NOT READABLE) ould do is phone us.&#8221;

Is the missing word &#8220;killer&#8221;?

I can&#8217;t think of another word that would allow his sentence to make sense.

Implication: Bob Jessop is using the newspaper to encourage contact with Christine&#8217;s killer? (And, he&#8217;s already assuming she&#8217;s dead. Her body won&#8217;t be found for another week or so at this point.)

I mention this, because the evening of Christine&#8217;s disappearance, there were a number of strange phone calls to the Jessop residence. I provided details about them in a previous post.