CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #4

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by Dedpanman, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/visual-catalogue-of-the-injuries-smaller-jpg.167698/
    wrt Scenario B,
    "a defensive wound to a forearm (2)" indicates she was alive and conscious, at that point in time.
     
  2. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    Canadian Climate Normals 1981-2010 Station Data - Climate - Environment and Climate Change Canada

    wrt burial?
    On average? Is the ground frozen by mid November?
     
  3. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    Heyya otto,

    ya in recent years coyotes prowl Port Perry and have been spotted in Lindsay.
    Must have been coyotes around in 80's, as area was less developed.
     
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  4. Woodland

    Woodland Well-Known Member

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    Property where CJ was found - owned by Mr and Mrs Cull (who resided and worked in Toronto).
    Timeline of their presence in Sunderland in October 1984.

    From RR Edition 2, page 67 - 68

    'What was difficult to understand was why the Culls didn't discover C's body just a few metres from their trailer in early October. Later that month, JC had smelled a foul odor he took to be caused by goats nearby, but he never found a source for it.'

    'Early' October had to be after the 4th when CJ went missing. That year Thanksgiving was on 8 October. 'Later' that month would be 13, 14 or 20, 21 or 27, 28.

    They were at the trailer some or all of the weekends in October without finding a body near the trailer. It's difficult to imagine, imo, that they did not stray from the immediate vicinity of their trailer during those October visits.

    Have always wondered why the trailer was not used for the assault or the killing of CJ. It was easily broken into - picking up from the same paragraph above ...

    'On November 1, Mrs Cull had died suddenly of a heart attack. Her husband stayed away from the trailer during the immediate mourning period, finally forcing himself up there in early December in order to gauge whether he wanted to keep the land or not. When he was still a few paces away, Cull noticed the broken glass in the trailer door. He unlocked it and walked over the shards feeling flat and depressed. Just about anything worth stealing was gone - his Skil saw, a naphtha heater, a propane tank and a Coleman lantern. Several small hand tools had also vanished.'

    Mr Cull must have walked around the property looking for these items or other items that might have been stolen imo - he then reported the break-in to police. He did not find a body.

    This is reliable evidence imo.
     
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  5. kemo

    kemo Well-Known Member

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    I think it is pretty solid her body was moved; probably so that it would be found. This is not all that unusual. The perpetrator may have wanted her to have a Christian burial, he may have wanted to generate more media exposure to either bask in the attention or perhaps learn more about the state of the investigation.

    The fact that the Culls did detect a bad smell earlier suggests that the body was hidden nearby but well concealed and was only moved a short distance where it was found. If this is the case, it is very unfortunate that the original dump site was never searched for or located since it may have contained significant evidence.

    If it could have be ascertained that the body had not been concealed in the immediate area it would tell quite a bit about the perpetrator.

    Unfortunately, at this point, this speculation is all pretty much mute.
    I have little hope it will ever be solved.

    The story itself is interesting primarily as an example of an across the board, totally bitched Investigation. While it is easy to point out all of the glaring examples of misfeasance and malfeasance, the real lesson learned was that complex investigation need to be turned over to the experts quickly. The Durham Regional Police would have probably been perfectly qualified to handle the theft of farm equipment but once the initial search for the “missing child” turned up empty, this should have been turned over to an agency with the skills, experience and resources to handle a major crime.
     
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  6. Woodland

    Woodland Well-Known Member

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    If CJ was moved from a location near to where she was found, then was she exposed to the elements or covered in a way that protected her body from the elements?

    If not covered, then she was exposed to the blowflies that seek out dead and decaying flesh. If she was well covered, then the killer was prepared for that and managed to conceal the cover from Mr Cull who claimed to have looked for the source of a foul smell. Could CJ have been moved without a single maggot adhering to her body or clothing?

    Imo, there is also the possibility that Mr Cull reacted to the power of suggestion - that a body would produce an odor and he should have smelled it during October. He made his claim in January to have smelled something in October. Neighbors other than LR agreed in January they heard a scream around 3 October - after LR repeated her claim again and again. The neighbors initially did not hear anything but changed their story to accommodate what they should have heard if CJ was brought there alive.
     
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  7. Moriarty

    Moriarty Member

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    Definitely coyotes, and more. I have a photo of me as a kid in the '70s standing beside a frozen timber wolf shot by a family friend on his farm near Seagrave, ON.

    But, maybe there should be more scattering of bones given the presence of such wildlife if a body was left in the open for several months...?
     
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  8. Moriarty

    Moriarty Member

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    I’m always hesitant to post on this thread because so many of you are so knowledgeable in every detail of this tragic story I always feel I couldn’t possibly add anything more.

    As so many of you have said, like otto and Dedpanman, there is so much untrustworthy or outright misinformation, tunnel vision, cognitive biases and people wanting a few seconds of fame…we are left with so many “what if…” conjectures. Maybe all we can do is take each “what if”, run it down until it can no longer be viable and cross it off our list of possible scenarios, or get to a point where it remains a possibility.

    I have a “what if,” but a quick question first: I have lost my copy of RR and don’t remember this detail, but did CJ often get home first from school before KJ or JJ got home? Or was this day an anomaly because of the delayed dentist visit?

    Here’s why I ask:

    Thanks to Dedpanman’s excellent explanation of the diatoms, what if, CJ was drowned first and later staged at the body site (and if the presence of the diatoms on the femur is due to tainted lab sample, what a testament to shoddy lab work and/or evidence collection and storage!). Surely, the presence of both diatoms in abundance and the noted pink teeth is too much of a coincidence.

    If I work from the theory that she was drowned and placed at the body site later, let me add another conjecture:

    What if…the killer staged the body and knife wounds at the body site, not for twisted pleasurable reasons, but to make it look like the body site was the assault and murder site?

    Why do that? Only conjecture of course, but maybe because the site of the drowning is connected to the killer, and the killer is connected to the Jessops because he knew when CJ was home alone or vulnerable due to her after-school routine, maybe not that specific day but generally.

    If CJ was drowned, and her body is found drowned in a pond on a farm or in a slough, and the killer owns that land, works there or is associated with it in some way, then he’s going to want to distance the murder site from himself as much as possible.

    Just one what if path I’ve been mulling over.
     
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  9. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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  10. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    @Moriarty,

    https://www.amazon.ca/Redrum-Innocent-Murder-Christine-Jessop-ebook/dp/B0748FR5DH#reader_B0748FR5DH

    (1.)
    "As the autumn of 1984 began to come into its own, neighbours and friends of the Jessops were carefully instructed that Bob had gone off on a long business trip to California. While her husband was away, Janet planned to rush home from work at the Sears store in nearby Richmond Hill every day in time to meet her daughter, Christine, getting off the school bus." ...

    "The entire family had been late waking up in the morning. In fact, it had led to a bit of a rumpus. Janet had wanted to drive Christine to school so she wouldn’t be late, but Christine had wanted to ride on the bus with her chums. As she’d hustled out the door, Janet had called after her: “Chrissy, I’m going to see Dad today and then I’m taking Kenny to the dentist. We might be home by four, but we might not, too.” Unbeknownst to Christine, Janet had agreed moments afterward to let Ken skip classes and spend the entire day with her. So there was no one home but Christine’s irrepressible dog, Freckles." ...

    "Whether or not Janet knew it was illegal to leave a child under ten alone, she didn’t need to be told it was a bad practice. Hilda Simpson, Janet’s stepmother, had already seen to that in her badgering way." …

    "Only three weeks earlier, Bob and Janet had stipulated that in the event the Jessop parents were not around on a given day, her school could let the Morins take responsibility for their children."


    (2.)
    "What was really perplexing was that nobody had known in advance of the family’s movements that day. True, Wednesday was often a day off for Janet. But hardly anybody knew she was going to visit Bob. Very few people had even known the family secret about Bob being in jail. Stranger still, Ken was a last-minute addition to the jail expedition. But for that impulsive decision, he would have arrived home from school right after Christine."

    (3.)
    "Hilda made things even worse by lecturing Janet. She had a knack for saying inappropriate things. For example, no sooner had the Jessop moved into their new home in Queensville than Hilda pronounced that something terrible would happen to Christine in the new house. Hilda had recently taken to telling her how to behave while Bob was in jail. Hilda was none too sure about Janet’s maternal instincts. “Never leave Christine at home alone,” she cautioned. “And make sure you are there whenever she gets home from school. No little girl should ever come home to an empty house. There is no telling what could happen.”
    On the very day of the abduction, Hilda had said to Gordon: “I hope Janet has been getting home before Christine gets back from school.”

    _______________________________

    Real Justice: Guilty of Being Weird

    (Ch 2, p18)
    ..."When Janet was
    going to be late getting home from her part-time job,
    she often asked Al and Ida to watch the kids until she got
    home."...
    Al and Ida often wondered why Janet hadn't asked
    them to watch her daughter the day Christine went
    missing."

    (Ch4, p24)
    "Skeeter-Deeter," Janet Jessop said to her nine-year-old
    daughter, Christine. "I'm going to see Dad today and
    then I'm taking Kenny to the dentist. We might be home
    by four, but we might not, too. Do your chores when
    you get home and if you go anywhere leave me a mess-
    age, so I know where you are."
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
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  11. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    also @Moriarty

    I've also mulled over the possibility of drowning at another location.
     
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  12. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    ONTARIO COLD CASE: Christine Jessop series garners 6 tips for police



    ONTARIO COLD CASE: Christine Jessop series garners 6 tips for police

    Jan 04, 2019

    "It was almost exactly 34 years ago today that the body of Christine Jessop was discovered, …

    However one thing is painfully obvious — there remains an intense resolve to find the culprit. So intense, in fact, that following the three stories being published over six months in 2018, six people have come forward to share information (one has already been shared here). Many of the tips are particularly compelling and don't appear to have been looked into by Toronto police (who did not return multiple phone calls) as of yet.

    All names have been altered to protect the identities of those involved."
     
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  13. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.amazon.ca/Redrum-Innocent-Murder-Christine-Jessop-ebook/dp/B0748FR5DH#reader_B0748FR5DH

    (6.)
    "Fall had considerably thinned the long grass in the field and it was crunchy underfoot. Patterson peered for a couple of moments and dismissed the sight. "Oh, that's probably just where they threw their garbage," he said in mild irritation. It wasn't like the Culls to dump garbage on their land. Patterson had never seen any on the property before."

    What type of covering would Cull not have noticed.
    (Time point, Thanks Giving weekend.)
    Neutral in color?
    Cardboard?
    Portions of a covering might adhere to the body?
    CJ was so wee, not many sq feet needed to cover CJ's body.

    Seems like an airtight environment, casing
    or freezing interferes with the blowfly's cycle?

    Maggot to Blowfly: Ready for Its Close-Up

    "By the way, if you have a problem with a spouse or business partner, it’s worth keeping in mind that the flies can indeed get into a suitcase. They stick their ovipositor through the gaps in the zipper. Or the newly hatched larvae themselves can sneak through."

    ***

    When the long grass thins and finally mounds in the fall season, sometimes in winter, in the sunlight with no snow cover, the mounds can be warm to the touch, and that pleasant aroma of moist hay lingers, when crouched close to the ground.
     
  14. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.amazon.ca/Redrum-Innocent-Murder-Christine-Jessop-ebook/dp/B0748FR5DH#reader_B0748FR5DH

    (3.)
    "Kellie also recalled a mysterious event that happened one night while they were walking home from the park. Christine had insisted on taking a back route, although she wouldn’t explain why. “It appeared to me that she was afraid of something,” Kellie told the police. “I asked her what the problem was and she didn’t comment.” Kellie had decided to let it pass."

    What's the 'back route' to the park?
     
  15. kemo

    kemo Well-Known Member

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    The original investigation seems to have operated in the assumption that Christine had gone to the store on her bike and returned to the house; from where she was abducted. We know however, that she was rarely home alone, very few people knew her father was in jail, nobody in the area knew where her mother and brother were and when they would return and we know that her mother and brother did return soon after she got back from the store, if she did, if fact go to the store. In addition, we know that the perpetrator had a vehicle and the abduction must have involved a vehicle yet the area around the Jessop’s house was rather exposed with few trees or other vegetation where a vehicle could be concealed. There were a few neighbors in the area but they would know what vehicles “ belonged” in the area and where they would be parked. A strange vehicle would stand out and be noticed yet nobody saw one. Had a vehicle been parked further from the house where it would not have been noticed, the abductor would have to transport a struggling Christine to the car. That would be pretty conspicuous.

    I think the primary reason the investigation honed in on Morin was that a next door neighbor with a car seemed like one of the few plausible means the abduction was carried out. An other possible explanation would be that Christine was on foot with her recorder, did not return to her house and went somewhere else where she was abducted by an opportunistic stranger (or possibly on her way back to her house).

    If this happen, there are infinite number of possible suspects. There might have a chance to narrow it down had they known what direction she went but the other kids she appeared to have been talking to were never identified or questioned. If it was assumed she went home, that information wasn’t important.

    I think was abducted by a stranger from the street. 35 years after the fact, it is not likely the perpetrator is going to be identified except through a DNA hit.
     
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  16. Kenney

    Kenney Christines Brother

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    No it isn’t, it’s a picture of them moving the propane heater they used Janaury 1. Sorry.
     
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  17. Kenney

    Kenney Christines Brother

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  18. Kenney

    Kenney Christines Brother

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    There was no back route. Only up Leslie street. I think she walked her through the balmoral subdivision, if I remember right.
     
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  19. Kenney

    Kenney Christines Brother

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    He pictures yo are showing are from the tractor path at the top of the hill about two hundred yards past the site. The picture with the dot is almost 100 yards past where she was found.
     
  20. Kenney

    Kenney Christines Brother

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    Found out in the inquiry Quantico bsu was still deciding whether or not to even take the case when Douglas was appearing it Toronto. Fitz and Shep basically ambushed him. Hit all the right cords, told him they had a suspect. High profile etc. Catered to his vanity. Yes the brought him to the house. He gave the oral profile on tape and tailored it to Morin because they assured Douglas it would only be used to rattle Morin. So Douglas did tailor the suspect part to fit Morin to a tee. Douglas got is serious ****, and retired and started writing books and consulting on movies.
    He chose to ignore the sopoena to testify at the inquiry as it would destroy his credibility. A warrant for his arrest was issued. His book was based on news reports. This came out during pre inquiry testimony. Brought up by Morin’s lawyer. And when I heard about it I had Tim Danson, our lawyer demand he appear as well. At the end of the inquiry I stood before the press and was asked what I thought, I stated Kaufman’s report was very thorough but it failed in not getting Douglas. Or the undercover cop. I believe I said that it was disgusting that Douglas was making money off my dead sister, creating a profile that made everyone believe it was Morin, But won’t answer to the lies and creation of it.
    He had a lawyer on his behalf in pre inquiry motions, and when he lost the fight to quash the sopoena, Douglas was supposed to be doing a book signing in Vancouver he skipped it and hopped on a plane out of Canada. Because Vancouver Police showed to enforce it. And he was gone.
    He didn’t set foot in Canada for almost ten years because of the standing arrest warrant on the border computers.
     
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