CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough, Ont, 19 June 1990 #2

Discussion in '1990's Missing' started by sillybilly, Oct 21, 2015.

  1. Woodland

    Woodland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,363
    Likes Received:
    674
    Trophy Points:
    113
    From the Globe and Mail 18 Mar 2014.

    But a Toronto police document has surfaced that casts doubt on Mr. Baltovich's conviction and raises questions about why it was not previously turned over to his lawyers. Notes from a 1990 interview of two experts at the Centre of Forensic Sciences conducted by Detective Sergeant Brian Raybould indicate that the forensic evidence was not consistent with Ms. Bain being killed, her body hidden and then transported in her car more than two days later.

    At the meeting with the forensic experts, Mr. Raybould's notes say he was told Ms. Bain's car contained more blood than there should be from a body that had decomposed for two or three days. The blood smears would have been darker, and there was no odour, which was inconsistent with a decomposing body placed inside.


    Lawsuit uncovers new evidence in Elizabeth Bain murder mystery

    So CFS said (from the beginning) that a body lying on the ground for 2-3 days was not placed in EB's car. Imo - no debris, ie dirt, leaves, decomp material was found.

    My interpretation is - no body was ever placed EB's vehicle.
     
  2. eyesonly

    eyesonly Active Member

    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    "So CFS said (from the beginning) that a body lying on the ground for 2-3 days was not placed in EB's car. Imo - no debris, ie dirt, leaves, decomp material was found.
    My interpretation is - no body was ever placed EB's vehicle."

    Hey Woodland:
    I just want to get a clarification from your interpretation please.
    Is your interpretation of no body ever in the car just for the friday morning in relation to the TPS/Crown's theory or is it no body in the car ever at anytime from the tues night until the car was found on Friday afternoon.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  3. Woodland

    Woodland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,363
    Likes Received:
    674
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My interpretation is that CFS is saying there was never a body in EB's car, at any point in time.

    CFS only examined the car after it was found - if there was any evidence in it, I have to think they would speak up. They couldn't attribute a particular day to any evidence even if they did find some. Imo, no odor speaks volumes.
     
  4. eyesonly

    eyesonly Active Member

    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    ""My interpretation is that CFS is saying there was never a body in EB's car, at any point in time.""

    What the blood expert and pathologist were saying, as per the Nov 22nd interview with the Detective that was hidden, was that a deceased body can bleed redish blood up to 3hrs after death has occured.
    Their findings eliminate Friday because any fluid leaking from a deceased body that had been laying in the valley for two days would have been more brownish, and their would have been an obvious odour left after driving the body 45 mins or more away from the park. And there would have been some evidence of decomposition bugs in the car.
    Their findings are in line with her deceased body being placed directly on the back seat floor immediately after death and there for up to 3 hours afterwards.
    Neither the CFS, the blood expert nor the pathologist have ever made any conclusion or suggestion that a body was never in the car at any time.
    If you would like to override their expert opinions, that is your opinionable right.
    I just wanted to clarify what the expert opinions meant and what they testified to, for any new people that may be reading this.

    No disrespect intended Woodland.
     
  5. will4u

    will4u Active Member

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    43
    forget all about the car,

    EB body may never have even left the Bian home or property :eek:
     
    Woodland likes this.
  6. Woodland

    Woodland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,363
    Likes Received:
    674
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You present a good argument eyesonly, no doubt about it. But it's the argument presented at RB's trial. We know how that worked out. There is a difference imo, in what was presented then and what the interpretation should be now.

    So CFS found blood - that's it, they found blood. We have already established on these threads that the quantity of blood found in her car was less than one would donate in a single sitting and, that the blood belonged to a female offspring of of Mr and Mrs Bain. That's one of two people. The blood was never attributed to Elizabeth and only Elizabeth.

    No evidence of a body in the car has been presented, not even in your statements - however, at trial one would have been led to believe that EB's body was in fact in the car - by deception. Raybould wanted a conviction on a no body case - period. RB was convicted on EB was in that car after a couple of days - we now know that was not possible.

    The thread has been through this before so I ask again - how can one believe what TPS said at the time, which was the wrong person, then be asked to believe that TPS had the right scenario but the wrong guy?

    Like the post above says - she may have never left home. There is no proof that she did - other than what her mom said.
     
  7. eyesonly

    eyesonly Active Member

    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    "then be asked to believe that TPS had the right scenario but the wrong guy?"

    No, the TPS had the wrong guy and the wrong scenario.

    "forget all about the car,"

    Now that's just silly, imo.
     
  8. eyesonly

    eyesonly Active Member

    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Go ahead and lay out your no body, no car, no whatever theories.
    Have at it, and I will stay out of both of your ways.
    Respect.

    Eyesonly
     
  9. will4u

    will4u Active Member

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Why is it silly?

    The Bain house and property were never searched (that I know of), the evidence could have been right there under the TPS noses, and they never knew it
     
  10. Woodland

    Woodland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,363
    Likes Received:
    674
    Trophy Points:
    113
    C'mon eyes, don't go.

    Imo you brought an invaluable piece of evidence to the thread - the Bain family phone bill from Jun 1990. It showed the use of calling cards by some in the family and is a good explanation for why the home phone was constantly busy into the late hours of the night EB went missing. The family could easily have been talking/planning with Mr B in Florida and the call could have been charged to a work phone or any other phone where TPS would not see it.

    You also know who knows who in the case.

    If people disagree with any of your theories expect some push back. I get push back all the time, it's no biggie. Cheers!
     
  11. Woodland

    Woodland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,363
    Likes Received:
    674
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In plain sight is apparently the best place to hide.
     
  12. eyesonly

    eyesonly Active Member

    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Hey Woodland, I have no intentions of going anywhere. Sorry if I gave that impression. I understand the theory you and will4u are putting across, and I wanted you two to expand on your ideas without interference.

    "Why is it silly?"
    will4u:
    The car is really the only physical evidence that exists and it contains forensic evidence.
    Whether that forensic evidence points to a body in the car, or to planted blood evidence, it is a crucial factor to either theory and should not be ignored.
    That's what I meant. I think I should have used a better term than I did, my apologies.
     
  13. will4u

    will4u Active Member

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    43
    TPS dropped the ball when they failed to search the Bain home and property, this should have been done right away, even if she was only considered a runaway at that point it still should have been done for clues as to why she ran away,

    Her bedroom was never searched, yet RB was allowed to remove pages from a diary a few days later, why?

    In all reality, this case could be as simple as EB being buried under the basement floor of the Bain home, they would have had all the time in the world to do it, nobody ever searched the home or property....why?

    Personally I am not believing any of the nonsense that is spewed from any of the Bain family members,

    My questions are,

    - When was the last time EB was CONFIRMED to be off the Bain property by anybody else other then a family member?

    - What was the date and time EB was CONFIRMED to have attended a scheduled class at UofT? (by anybody else other then a member of the Bain family)

    - What was the first CONFIRMED date and time of the first scheduled class that EB was absent for? (confirmed by anybody else other then a member of the Bain family)

    Personally I am not believing MrsB when she said EB "went to check the tennis schedule", that is just nonsense and here-say as it has never been 100% confirmed,

    TPS just had tunnel vision on RB and refused to explore any other options, desperate to make an arrest,

    The blood was planted in the car IMO and was a perfect distraction from the family, that made the TPS focus on the car and RB,

    At that point all the Bain family had to do is sit and agree and nod their heads when it came to questions about RB,

    Plant blood from EB sister CB in the car, place the car at the body shop, and have brother PB "find" the car seemingly only hours later....LOL

    so brother PB was able to find the car before TPS could even though the car was in plain view from a busy street.....give me a break,

    something stinks here people
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  14. will4u

    will4u Active Member

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Bain family doesn't want the case reopened and investigated any further, why not? what would they have to lose?

    Because they are convinced RB was the killer? like they keep saying?

    NO! It's because they fear the TRUTH will come out about their cover up!!
     
  15. eyesonly

    eyesonly Active Member

    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
     
  16. Woodland

    Woodland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,363
    Likes Received:
    674
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There are a few things to discuss with this post eyesonly. You might need to defend and/or clarify a few statements.

    Imo, no one is questioning the integrity of CFS in this case. I don't think they were fooled and reported their findings in a clear manner. Have not seen anyone question this - maybe you have a post to quote that shows otherwise?

    CFS findings were not reported in a clear manner at trial - imo - and in the opinion of the amended RB lawsuit.

    We established earlier in these threads that the blood (a minimal amount that no one would be considered dead from) had smear marks in one direction. Is this correct in your opinion? The smear marks went into the backseat of the car, but not out. How does one explain that when EB was not found in her car? One can ignore that, but not all will choose to do that.

    Why would someone, who had just dragged EB from the park to her car, choose to put her in the back of her car when the trunk would have been much more convenient at that time? Under this theory, this person felt they had quite a lot of time to this without being seen.

    Looking forward to your response.
     
  17. eyesonly

    eyesonly Active Member

    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
     
  18. eyesonly

    eyesonly Active Member

    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Quote from Woodland:
    ""We established earlier in these threads that the blood (a minimal amount that no one would be considered dead from) ""

    I think we need to understand, as provided in the testimonies, that there doesn't always have to be vast amounts of blood loss for death to occur.
    These are just my opinions.
    1) The death and majority of blood loss could have occurred first outside the car.
    2) Death could have occurred by a broken neck and when body laid on the floor in the back over the hump, so the head is lower than half the body, this could cause blood to leak out of the mouth and nose. (a scenario agreed by one of EB's relatives who was a wealthy surgeon from Boston I believe it was. JS who I search with and was involved in this search and the Best family since September of 1990, personally asked the doctor this question)
    3) even certain knife wounds do not create that much blodb loss.
    4) a blow to the head can kill but not create much blood loss if any but combine that with a broken nose that is bleeding
    5) I believe the Nov 22nd note regarding the forensics that was buried, noted that a possibility for the blood loss was two blows to the head. But that was just an opinion on how the blood loss could occur and not based on any forensic evidence collected.
     
  19. kemo

    kemo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,501
    Likes Received:
    210
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Very interesting discussion. A few points to consider:

    Assuming that EB was killed outside of the vehicle and then put into it for transport to a dump site, putting the body in the back seat area and not the trunk is hard to explain. People do make bad decisions; particularly while under pressure. Is it possible that she was in rigor mortise and would not fit in the trunk?

    A fatal stab wound would almost always result in a great deal of blood-loss but a wound to the abdomen can result in most of the bleeding going into thr abdominal cavity. Once the heart stops beating, bleeding out comes only from gravity. The location of he wound relative to the placement of the body would determine the amount of post mortem blood loss.

    Head injuries can result in a lot of blood loss if the injury is not immediately fatal. Once the heartbeat stops, the bleeding would stop unless the body placement puts the head at a low point so that gravity would cause further blood loss.
     
  20. eyesonly

    eyesonly Active Member

    Messages:
    544
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    28
     

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice