CANADA Canada - Joe Grozelle, 21, RMC student, Kingston, Ont, 22 Oct 2003

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by CCD, May 6, 2005.

  1. CCD

    CCD Member

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    A classic cold case with a possible military cover-up. My cousin was super-close to this guy, and I'd do anything to get his family the justice they deserve. Here are some specs on the case.

    http://www.queensjournal.ca/articlephp/point-vol131/issue21/news/story1

    They originally said he drowned, but no one believes that is the case. They have just started to delve into this further as of the 19th of April.

    "


    GROZELLE INVESTIGATION GOES LONGER
    by Erica Brown.

    The investigation into the disappearance of Joe Grozelle will likely extend into May.

    "We are still plugging along with followups and leads" said Detective Insp. Ian Grant of the Ontario Provincial Police.

    Ontario's deputy chief coroner Dr. Jim Cairns expects to meet with the OPP about the death investigation in early May.

    "That will be a private meeting to discuss how we finish the investigation" he told the CHATHAM DAILY NEWS.

    Grozelle vanished from his RMC dorm room on October 22, 2003.

    His body was found 22 days later near the college in Lake Ontario. {the paper's error}

    The oroginal autopsy listed Grozelle's cause of death as drowning. A second autopsy was conducted after the exhumation of his body from a Ridgetown cemetary late last year.

    Cairns would not comment on the results of the second autopsy.

    "The findings and what they mean are dependent on the autopsies and the police investigation" he said.

    The coroner had originally had expected to wrap up the case in early March.

    "It has taken the police longer to do what they thought was necessary" he explained.

    Cairns said the coroner's part of the investigation is complete at this point. However, he said it could re-opened if the OPP's investigation makes it necessary.

    He won't know that until the May meeting. In February, OPP issued a public appeal to speak to people involved in three separate and unrelated incidents, in hopes they could help solve the mysterious death of the Ridgetown native. "

    Sorry for the lack of the link, couldn't get it to work. But I'd love to hear some theories on whether or not you think if was suicide or murder?
     
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  3. gatetrekker44

    gatetrekker44 New Member

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    if you Google "Joe Grozelle"-there are several articles referring to the quickness with which the original autopsy concluded "suicide" AFTER the investigators had already stated it was a suicide. This was given as a reason for not thoroughly examining the body for signs of a struggle. It's hard to believe someone who had passed their required swimming test accidentally drowned UNLESS they were under the influence. Since he was not failing and apparently had no reason to commit suicide, it appears that homicide may very well be involved. I'd sure like to know if water was found in the lungs at the first autopsy and if so if the water was examined for diatoms, etc. Every body of water like a lake, river, etc. has its own specific diatoms present.
    Sure wish I could see a copy of the original autopsy report! :confused:


    Bring Maura home!
     
  4. RobertStJames

    RobertStJames Inactive

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    [​IMG]
    The passer-by initially who observed the body several hundred feet offshore called Kingston City police, who attended the scene with CFB Kingston Military Police and recovered the body around 8:30 a.m.


    But the description of the location was changed to be near HMCS Cataraqui, that is, close to RMC. This looks more like the Kingston Waterfront park. And Ron Grozelle states that Joe's body was orginally found *south* of La Salle Parkway.

    So where was his body really found?


    RstJ
     
  5. gatetrekker44

    gatetrekker44 New Member

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    The last thing I saw was the Joe's father had seen the second autopsy report but couldn't comment on it. Since the report is finished(apparently in late March) what EXACTLY is going on since then? I tried to search the web, buta lot of the info is in French-and the latest English report was March 19!
    Anyone have anything additional?


    Bring Maura home!
     
  6. gatetrekker44

    gatetrekker44 New Member

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  7. gatetrekker44

    gatetrekker44 New Member

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    any more news? There has been precious little since the second autopsy was completed/does anyone(especially in Canada)have any additional info or news? CyberLaw, this would be a good place for you to get constructive...


    Bring Maura home!
     
  8. CyberLaw

    CyberLaw Former Member

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    I sent a PM to coldcasedetective, the reason that I have not been "as constructive" because there is nothing new to report.

    But there was an article published today regarding this case............

    The OPP(Ontario Poovincial Police) just wrapped up their investigation last month and a Coroners Inquest has been scheduled. No date as yet.........

    There has been no public release of that investigation and it was not reported if the cause of death of suicide was affirmed or if the death was deemed accidential.

    But just off the cuff, I really don't know of any Coroners Inquest that has been convened if the cause of death was suicide..........but then again I don't know if the Military College has anything to do with the circumstances surroundng this case or the cause of death.........

    I will post again when the Coroners Inquest is schedule.....no time, date or location has been determined as yet.

    Will keep you informed.........
     
  9. Bluecat

    Bluecat New Member

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    Update...wonder why the original inquest was halted? Apparently this second inquest ended without any conclusion about cause of death. This is an interesting case, both because it seems that there is a gap in the timeline between when he disappeared and when he died (1-2 weeks!), and also that there are allegations of tampering with evidence on behalf of the Canadian military, specifically his computer.

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/11/17/grozelle.html

    RMC cadet death inquest likely on hold until 2007
    Last Updated: Friday, November 17, 2006 | 12:31 PM ET
    CBC News
    Joe Grozelle's father says he is frustrated by delays and a lack of information regarding the coroner's inquest into his son's mysterious disappearance and death three years ago.

    Grozelle, a 21-year-old Royal Military College cadet, disappeared from his Kingston, Ont., dormitory room in October 2003, and his body was found floating in the Cataraqui River three weeks later.

    Joe Grozelle's body was found in the Cataraqui River three weeks after he went missing from his Royal Military College dormitory room.
    The Canadian Press
    Initially, the death was ruled a suicide, but Grozelle's family insisted the cadet would never have taken his own life. They have been waiting three years to learn the real circumstances surrounding Grozelle's death.

    A coroner's inquest into how Grozelle died began last month, but was halted on Oct. 26 by the presiding coroner after only five days of hearings.

    Coroner Dr. David Eden said the inquest would start over with a new jury, and it was anticipated that might happen in as soon as Nov. 20.

    But earlier this week, the coroner's office announced that the inquest would be delayed again.

    Grozelle's father, Ron Grozelle, said his family has not been told when a new date might be.

    "We don't have any definitive answers from the Coroner's office. We're just having to wait like everyone else," he said. "It's terribly frustrating that we're having to go through this process."

    Dr. Benita Porter, an official with the coroner's office, said the delay is because dozens of witnesses and lawyers must be available over a two-month period and five people must be selected to form a new jury.

    "It is not likely at all that will happen before the end of 2006," she said. "And when in 2007 the inquest will begin, we just are not able to say."

    Meanwhile, Ron Grozelle said the family still does not know why the presiding coroner shut down the original inquest.

    At the time, Eden said the jury was "discharged in public interest of a fair hearing."

    Many members of the Grozelle family travelled to Kingston from Southwestern Ontario to attend the original hearings.
     
  10. CCD

    CCD Member

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  11. eeyorelrn

    eeyorelrn Verified Registered Nurse

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    I can tell you I would NOT be suprized at all if there was a military cover-up involved. I have an older cousin that was in the Marines, and died while on duty. For years the military told the family that Butch accidently shot himself while cleaning his gun, but our family never believed it. A good friend that had been stationed with Butch told the family years later that he infact did not shoot himself, but would not say anything further except the family needed to ask to see the official reports. I am not too familiar with what my great aunt and my aunt had to go through to see the reports (they never when into to that part in detail) but when they were finally able to see it, they found out that Butch had actually been coming to the defence of a Commissioned Officer's wife whose husband was beating her severely. The CO shot Butch because he tried to intervene. The incident was explained away as 'accidental' to cover for the CO.
     
  12. Summersolstice

    Summersolstice New Member

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  13. sillybilly

    sillybilly WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    FWIW, i highly doubt they would hold an inquest if they really believed it was a suicide.

    In reading the jury's recommendations, #8 is interesting

    Something tells me that computer files were "missing".
     
  14. LadyL

    LadyL Well-Known Member

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    definately suspicious
    feel bad for his parents
     
  15. sillybilly

    sillybilly WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    For those of you who may be checking into Joe's thread, please visit the thread on Lachlan Cranswick, the scientist who is missing from Deep River, Ontario. We are discussing an interesting coincidence of the Grozelle surname in relation to Lachlan and the ex-Colonel Russ Williams who is charged with the murders of Jessica Lloyd and Marie-France Comeau and 2 home invasions:

    Starting at post #161 on Pg 7:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95134&page=7
     
  16. Pink Panther

    Pink Panther New Member

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    How could one ever conclude "suicide" for this case??? It's beyond me...Sounds like they couldn't figure it out so they made something up. I have read extensively about Joe's case and his disappearance and there is not a shred of information that is publicly available to lead one to deduct such a conclusion. To his family, my condolences. It is my hope that information that has very recently come to light will assist them in better understanding the circumstances around their beloved son's demise!

    This case makes me so angry. What on earth was everyone doing - apart from protecting "turf"!???
     
  17. sillybilly

    sillybilly WS Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Yep ... can't tarnish the image of an institution as respected as RMC. So much smacks of cover-up to me Panther.

    Don't know if you read, but in the Williams case, his bio on the DND website originally said he was at RMC in Kingston in 2003 when Joe's case took place. Quite a few media had picked up on the original bio, but then the DND either changed it or deleted it, and said that RW had in fact taken his Masters of Defence Studies in Toronto. Personally, I think it's BS, and I hope to God that someone had the foresight to do a screenshot of the original bio.
     
  18. Pink Panther

    Pink Panther New Member

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    Yep...I've read...Bleh.

    I guess we'll have to wait and see.
     
  19. Pink Panther

    Pink Panther New Member

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    Nothing for days. Hmmm...I am still waiting. I still think that there's a connection with Joe and RW. I don't know how long it will take to make it but I'm sure that it will surface.

    This is my opinion only, of course.
     
  20. Summersolstice

    Summersolstice New Member

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    Years on, I want to point out some developments in the coroner's office.

    Following the fall from grace of coroner Charles Smith, and the Goudge inquiry, Dr. Jim Cairns is no longer working at the coroner's office, nor is his former boss, Dr. James Young:

    http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/179/10/995
    http://smithforensic.blogspot.com/2009/06/toronto-star-perspective-on-former.html

    There is a new chief coroner, who also played a role in the Joe Grozelle case:

    http://www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/english/office_coroner/chief_coroner/chief_coroner.html

    A link to the transcript of Dr. McCallum's words at the Joe Grozelle inquest can be found in the timeline posted by you above. As you may have noted, Dr. Andrew McCallum served in the Canadian Forces as a medical officer and flight surgeon.

    My question to anyone who can assist is this: what are the rules concerning conflict of interest and potential conflict of interest for coroners at coroner's inquests in Ontario? I have searched here, but have not found the answer:

    http://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-c37/latest/rso-1990-c-c37.html

    Specifically, I would like to know how conflict of interest rules for coroners and people speaking at coroner's inquests compare to those for lawyers and witnesses in Ontario court cases. What obligations are there to report conflicts of interest, and potential conflicts of interest to a coroner's inquest, pre- and post-Goudge? I have found these reports helpful, but my question remains:

    http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov....arch/pdf/Hanzlick_Options-for-Modernizing.pdf
    http://www.ontca.ca/Final code old order july 18 Dr.pdf

    And further, did Dr. Andrew McCallum report his background as a Canadian Forces medical officer and flight surgeon to the various parties at the inquiry, whether or not he was obliged to do so? In other words, did Joe Grozelle's family and legal representatives know about this at the time of the inquiry?
     
  21. Summersolstice

    Summersolstice New Member

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    Since the title of this thread is "Joe Grozelle, Suicide or Murder?", I thought it would be appropriate to bring up one example of a military suicide. Because links quickly vanish, I am taking the liberty of copying the article. The individual in question served at 8 Wing, Trenton. There were contributory conditions. There were warning signs. Note the response to the warning signs. Notice how the family was treated. This is one example:

    http://www.intelligencer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2467194

    "Military mom says questions need answers
    SOLDIER SUICIDES: Mother questions military's ability to help troubled service men and women
    Posted By JASON MILLER THE INTELLIGENCER
    Posted 2 months ago


    In the days after reports of the deaths of three young military men in Ontario in recent weeks, questions are being raised by one military mom about the military's ability or willingness to help troubled service men and women.

    One Belleville mother has been grief-stricken since her son, identified for the purposes of this article as PB, an aircraft technician at CFB Trenton, committed suicide Jan. 5.


    The young man's mother has filed a letter of concern to Pierre Daigle, the ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces. In a Feb. 3 interview with QMI Agency's Ottawa Sun, Daigle was critical of the Canadian forces for failing to give grieving families the attention and care he felt they deserved after a soldier is killed in the line of duty.

    The 8 Wing airman's mother insisted, in a lengthy interview with The Intelligencer, that lack of attention to the needs of military personnel and their families also blocked her attempts to get help for her son.

    She said the problems with PB's behaviour surfaced after he returned last summer from his fifth tour in Afghanistan. She said her son became more detached from the outside world and gradually lost interest in socializing or engaging others in conversation.

    She said when he returned from his latest deployment last August he complained about becoming emotionally traumatized by the repatriation ceremonies for his fallen comrades who were killed there.

    The airman's mother said that her son fell into a "big depression" when he learned from his colleagues -- not military officials -- that his early retirement plans were in jeopardy because of a reported additional five years tacked on, inexplicably, to his initial 20-year recruitment agreement. She said this news was devastating to him because he only had nine more years to go to what he had expected to be his full retirement. She said her 37-year-old son's plans to start a family and settle down at the age of 46 were shattered.

    "He wanted to get out of the military," she said.

    In September, the mother went away to the family's vacation home in Panama, leaving PB behind. Within days of her departure, she said PB went to the woods behind the family's Belleville home and attempted to hang himself from a tree. It was a failed suicide attempt.

    "He ran home and was bleeding and coughing blood," she said.

    She said he was taken to Belleville General Hospital before being transferred to Kingston to be treated for what she calls "serious injuries."

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    She had hoped he was also hospitalized in Kingston for psychiatric care.

    But, the mother became concerned when her son was only treated for physical injuries after he was admitted into Kingston hospital following his failed suicide attempt.

    When she asked PB why there wasn't a psychiatric evaluation done while he was in Kingston, he informed her that the military told him they would take care of any psychological issues he had when he was released from the hospital.

    She said military officials visited her son during his one-month stay in hospital, but that he received no psychiatric care. The mother was convinced that her son was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. Immediately after his release from hospital in October, she escorted him to CFB Trenton to see the military psychiatrist at the base.

    She was assured by military personnel her son would receive optimum care from one of the best psychiatrists the military had to offer. She said that assurance persuaded her to wait on her initial plan to enrol PB in private treatment.

    She said PB had about five or six meetings with a psychiatrist at 8 Wing. Each time, she said, "he evaluated (PB) and sent him home without any medication.

    "(PB) went again and again and again and didn't get any medication," she said. "He said, 'Mom, I have to respond to the military psychiatrist -- he knows what he's doing.'"

    The airman's mother said she was shocked when the military psychiatrist came to the conclusion that PB wasn't showing any warning signs of a person suffering from depression.

    She conceded that PB's problems were compounded when news about his failed suicide attempt became a subject of discussion among his fellow air force personnel at base.

    "Can you imagine how he could feel, going back to work and everyone knows?" she said. "He felt ashamed, embarrassed."

    His mother met with the psychiatrist to get an understanding of how they should care for PB. The request came before PB and his girlfriend visited the family in Panama in December.

    "Should we treat him with tough love or be very emotional and feeling sorry for him?" she said she recalled asking. But, the mother said she didn't receive any specific answers from the psychiatrist. "I was concerned for (PB) because he was going to spend time with us in a different country, away from military care.

    "I still couldn't believe that PB still didn't get any medication," she said.

    She said after the family vacation in Panama, he became more "withdrawn" and "less active."

    "He was a totally different person," she said.

    She offered to accompany him back to Canada the first week of January, but PB insisted he would be fine.

    "I spoke with (PB) Monday evening (Jan. 4) on Skype," she said.

    She said the next day, Jan. 5, PB reported for work at CFB Trenton. But, some time during the work day, he mysteriously left the base, raising suspicion among some of his close friends. When his mother called him later that evening on his cellphone and via the computer network, Skype, there was no answer.

    "I was paralysed," she said.

    The following day, two of PB's friends from the base canvassed areas PB was familiar with, places he used to like to go.

    His friends found his frozen body hanging from a tree in a Prince Edward County conservation area.

    The entire ordeal has devastated the man's mother, who breaks down in tears within minutes of talking about her son.

    "Right now I'm taking medication to keep me calm," she said. "If I don't, I blow."

    The family has been told by the military ombudsman's office that the ombudsman will await an internal military inquiry into the circumstances of PB's death.

    Until then, the airman's mother worries other military men and women are being given less than adequate psychiatric care by the armed forces.

    "These young people cannot be ignored," she said. "They should be watched."

    She hopes for a drastic overhaul in military culture, so that male soldiers can feel more comfortable in expressing their emotions to senior officers without fear of ridicule or been targeted. She's worried that if all parties involved aren't vigilant about addressing the issue, there will be more suicides or even worse, "murder suicides."

    Officials with National Defence and 8 Wing. CFB Trenton, did not return calls regarding PB's case or general questions about psychiatric care available to military personnel at the base.

    Few details about any investigation into PB's death were available Thursday.

    "It's not a criminal case," said Det. Andrew Goad of Prince Edward OPP.

    "We investigate on behalf of the coroner, therefore any information that's released has to be cleared through the coroner," he said.

    Coroner Dr. Amber Hayward-Stewart of Prince Edward County could not be reached Thursday afternoon for comment.

    Maj. Paule Poulin of the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal, the unit overseeing military police, said the military is deferring to the OPP on the case.

    "They notify us and we just assist them if required, but they have the lead."

    Since her son's death, the Belleville mother said her son's friends have been told by superiors at 8 Wing to have no contact with the family and the family has been instructed to deal solely with one liaison officer from 8 Wing.

    "He (the officer) has told us not to talk to the media, not to talk to anyone about this," said the mother. "We have to talk to someone.""
     

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