GUILTY Canada - Kienan Hebert, 3, Sparwood BC, 7 Sept 2011 - #2

[Wondergirl]

RH must have had:

1. A visual eye on KH's home, to know it was unoccupied. Physical or electronic monitoring.

2. Was KH's home unlocked when he was returned? What was the entry point?

3. Why didn't KH move around the home, climb into his bed, look for his parents, when he was returned?

4. Does RH have a cell phone? What tower did the phone ping when he called 911? Did he even call 911?

5. Whose clothing did KH have on when returned home?

 

[Dee10]

Parent talk about his return

http://www.vancouversun.com/busines...nts+talk+about+return+home/5388635/story.html

 

[Wondergirl]

I think you are right as well.. Also when he said "You have my cell number".. I think that said something right there as well.

Really, it is possible that the return of the child was actually co-ordinated by RH with LE.

 

[Wondergirl]

It's almost certain that Randall was either on foot or on ATV.

However, he could have been within the perimeter of the police checkpoints, and still could be.

But, he is likely in the bush, and hopefully his 911 call narrowed down the timeline for the outside perimeter.

As the community has only one road in or out, driving to the Hebert house would have required passing the search and rescue command post at the entrance to the suburb.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/return+mysterious+abduction/5384761/story.html

 

[margaret_diane]

RH must have had:

1. A visual eye on KH's home, to know it was unoccupied. Physical or electronic monitoring.

2. Was KH's home unlocked when he was returned? What was the entry point?

3. Why didn't KH move around the home, climb into his bed, look for his parents, when he was returned?

4. Does RH have a cell phone? What tower did the phone ping when he called 911? Did he even call 911?

5. Whose clothing did KH have on when returned home?

Actually, we don't KNOW whether Kienan might have wandered around the home looking for his parents or not!! We don't know how long he was sitting there! It could be he was TOLD firmly to sit there, and await rescue, or it COULD be that he DID wander the home looking for his parents... and not finding them.... he parked himself on the couch to wait for someone. We also do not know what state he was in when found. Was he tired, wide awake and alert? Was he frightened? Was he crying? His demeanor on being found would be important to know here!! Also -- could it be that LE KNEW Kienan was in the home and that they were WAITING for dad to show up to open the door? Its possible that they wanted Kienan to see a familiar and safe face first if possible so as not to further traumatize him!! They knew Kienan would go to his dad even if to no one else (strange officers etc)... letting his dad find him might have been the gentlest thing they could do for the child!!

We'd like to think it was all about the suspect here, but police were SMART!! They played their cards perfectly, and they got Kienan back home!! SAFELY AND ALIVE!! Frankly - the rest - I don't give a damn about! They'll get Hopley eventually, and I suspect sooner than later!! And Kienan will hopefully get on with his life, and recover well from all he has been through!! I can only hope that we one day learn how this all really went down!! They (LE and all involved!) have been terrific here, and one hair out of place on LE's end, or the parent's end, or anyone's end (even ONLINE!!) could have led to a far worse outcome here!!

 

[margaret_diane]

RH must have had:

1. A visual eye on KH's home, to know it was unoccupied. Physical or electronic monitoring.

2. Was KH's home unlocked when he was returned? What was the entry point?

3. Why didn't KH move around the home, climb into his bed, look for his parents, when he was returned?

4. Does RH have a cell phone? What tower did the phone ping when he called 911? Did he even call 911?

5. Whose clothing did KH have on when returned home?

I also had wondered what he was wearing when he was found (you can bet they've combed THAT for DNA and evidence about where they were - eg: fibres / hairs etc).... And... do we know WHO called LE? Have we got official confirmation that THE SUSPECT called LE?

 

[RoseWhite]

I am so incredibly relieved that he was found! WOW. This never seems to happen. I am so, so glad!

 

[CrimeBella]

RCMP can not confirm that Hopley called 911.. this will be divulged if this matter goes to court.

http://www.cbc.ca/earlyedition/2011/09/12/corporal-dan-moskaluk-update/

Regarding the roadblocks being taken down, and the reporter announcing it - Kind of paraphrased..
Everything we say and everything we do, right now, will have a direct effect and consequence in Sparwood British columbia. We are being very cautious as to what we can say and what we are doing and why we are doing it. we all have to work together

 

[craftybatchy]

Regarding returning K, I wonder he if he just didn't realize how much care a 3 year needs. Was he fussing & crying for Mommy & Daddy. Did he have accidents, picky eater, whining...not the playmate he anticipated? Did the pleas work and if so what in particular struck him, etc?

Will he try to abduct an older child? The previous child in '85 who was in foster care, his lawyer said he had planned to sell him back to his real parents for under $3,000 (it was a strange amount), but he allegedly molested the child twice, so I didn't buy the ransom bit.

I have total faith they will catch him soon & I am sure/hope parents have their kids in virtual lockdown until he is, but I hope we will be able to learn the answers at the very least 'motive'. The professionals (cough) will figure out the rest & perhaps we may learn whenever this goes to trial.

The amount in question was exactly $2800.00 - odd, I agree.

 

[gitana1]

I am very grateful to this perp for returning Kienan home, safe with his family. Very grateful. He did the right thing there.

But the fact is, this is a very disturbed and dangerous man. He planned the previous abduction of a 10 year old disabled boy and along with children's toys, clothes and diapers, he had sex toys and child's pajama pants cut into a thong. Clearly, this man was not a socially awkward misfit looking for a "friend". He was looking to do unspeakable things to a helpless child.

I believe I heard a report that Kienan was unharmed. I am hopeful that that is true and will be grateful if so as well. But I have no doubt he was planning equally horrible things for Kienan.

He is an incredible danger and while gratitude should be expressed for his change of heart, this is not a man who should be on the street. He needs help but we need protection.

As far as how he got back into the house with Kienan, I don't understand the outcry. The Canadian police seemed to have done a wonderful, bang up job here. We have too many cases in the U.S. where nothing close is determined without a confession of some sort.

LE there in Canada managed to hone in very rapidly on the perp and use psychology to get him to release the child. They deserve serious kudos for that. It's much more than many of our LE have been able to do, especially so rapidly.

I'm sure they were looking elsewhere for Kienan. I don't see why they would need to keep an empty house under surveillance. It is very unusual for a perp to drop a child back off at their house or even to go there after such an abduction, especially so soon after the abduction.

And as others have said, had they been surrounding the house, the outcome we have today may have been different.

God bless Kienan, his family and Canadian LE! Excellent job!

 

[gitana1]

I do feel sorry for him in a sense, but I don't know if that's the right word. I just know that had he not been born mentally handicapped, or been exposed to FAS, and if he grown up surrounded by love & acceptance,(three things he had zero control over) he would not have become the person he is. That doesn't make me believe any less that he is a danger to society being out - as he has proven. I just think that it was inevitable that he turned out this way based on his background.

Well, apparently you do not have to be to bright, or even human, to avoid capture: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tive-cow-surrenders-98-days-run-abattoir.html :floorlaugh:

But in all seriousness, just living an almost solitary lifestyle can create severe psychological disorders, especially someone who has a history such as his...he is simply predisposed. His physical appearance suggest an underlying disorder, I saw FAS mentioned, but his asymmetrical appearance suggests a possible genetic disorder(by no means is that certain though), he could just be less than handsome to put it nicely. I think either way, some serious research needs to be done on him, and the reason he returned the boy, so hopefully whatever tactics used by LE appealed to him can be used to appeal to other kidnappers.

I honestly think what we have here is someone who has a low IQ, and has never been taught to deal with their emotions in an effective manner, i.e. loneliness manifests into kidnapping, anger into violence and a shyness of people/social awkwardness that resulted into his recluse like behavior. I do think the fact that he returned the boy shows he still has some ability to reason, and is not a lost cause. Do I want him on the streets anytime soon? Absolutely not.

I think years and years of cognitive behavior therapy would only prepare him to live in a halfway home at best. Of course, thats the science side of me speaking...having little brothers myself though, makes me also think lock him up and melt the key into another lock!

I don't know. See, to me, a person who intensely calculates and plans the abduction of not one, but possibly three children for sexual purposes, and who sets up an house to be used as some sick sex chamber, that's not a symptom of a bad childhood or FAS or mental ilness, etc. That's a hardcore, super dangerous pedophile. We are so lucky Kienan is alive, well and home right now.

So again, while I'm very grateful that he finally did the right thing, and while I don't doubt that this perp has other issues that he needs help for, my years of research tell me that there is no help for pedophilia and there is no excuse for it.

Yes, I am sad about the cards the perp was dealt in life. He was once a child. But once that child grows up and makes the active decision to harm a child in the most horrific way imaginable, my pity is gone. We all deserve protection from this person. A light sentence and/or all the counseling is in the world, will not provide that protection, IMO.

Both Canada and the US have to get on the ball when it comes to people who commit crimes against children. First attempt to abduct a child should equal life. First clear molestation of a child by such a perp (and I am NOT talking about a 16 year old who has consensual sex with a 14 year old girlfriend, if you know what I mean), should equal life.

The monster that lurks in our nightmares exists on our streets. It is real. And although stranger abduction is indeed, quite rare, the reality of such a crime is so horrific that governments should be compelled to take every precaution to make sure such monsters are put where they cannot hurt another person, ever again. :twocents:

 

[~n/t~]

B.C. abduction suspect focus of expanded manhunt

Tactical forces from Alberta and across B.C. have arrived in Sparwood, B.C. to join about 60 officers already searching for suspected child abductor Randall Peter Hopley, 46.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/09/12/abduction-search-suspect.html

 

[LadyL]

what if he didn't take Kienan right into the house? what if he left him off at the edge of the woods & said go home? except that ... apparently dad had to unlock the door for police ...

and the thing that's really bugging me ... when the family left to go stay at the neighbours, did they lock their doors? if so, how did Hopley get in when he returned Kienan (and, indeed, how did he get inside to take Kienan in the first place)?

I really wish someone would offer some answers to how he was apparently able to access the house TWICE

 

[CrimeBella]

I don't know. See, to me, a person who intensely calculates and plans the abduction of not one, but possibly three children for sexual purposes, and who sets up an house to be used as some sick sex chamber, that's not a symptom of a bad childhood or FAS or mental ilness, etc. That's a hardcore, super dangerous pedophile. We are so lucky Kienan is alive, well and home right now.

So again, while I'm very grateful that he finally did the right thing, and while I don't doubt that this perp has other issues that he needs help for, my years of research tell me that there is no help for pedophilia and there is no excuse for it.

Yes, I am sad about the cards the perp was dealt in life. He was once a child. But once that child grows up and makes the active decision to harm a child in the most horrific way imaginable, my pity is gone. We all deserve protection from this person. A light sentence and/or all the counseling is in the world, will not provide that protection, IMO.

Both Canada and the US have to get on the ball when it comes to people who commit crimes against children. First attempt to abduct a child should equal life. First clear molestation of a child by such a perp (and I am NOT talking about a 16 year old who has consensual sex with a 14 year old girlfriend, if you know what I mean), should equal life.

The monster that lurks in our nightmares exists on our streets. It is real. And although stranger abduction is indeed, quite rare, the reality of such a crime is so horrific that governments should be compelled to take every precaution to make sure such monsters are put where they cannot hurt another person, ever again. :twocents:

While I agree with the gist of your post regarding the penalites that should be imposed, I think you are underestimating the effects of FAS. I think that for every FAS adult that offends, the birth mother should serve the same sentence but that's a whole other thread LOL. But here are the odds that were stacked against Hopley before he was even born.

95% will have mental health problems;
60% will have "disrupted school experience";
60% will experience trouble with the law;
55% will be confined in prison, drug or alcohol treatment centre or mental institution;
52% will exhibit inappropriate sexual behaviour.

http://www.faslink.org/fasmain.htm

Also:

On a study on male pedophiles

Additional disabilities, such as autism spectrum disorder and Fetal Alcohol Syndrome were noted in 70% of the group.

Statistically, punishments do not work with FAS. The damage is done - and as harsh as this sounds, Hopley is, I believe, incurable. Again, I am not suggesting he be given a pass, or be allowed on the streets. I just think with the whole "tougher laws" suggestions we also need to consider attacking and solving the root of the evil if we want to really start putting a stop to these people wandering the streets to protect innocent children.

 

[CrimeBella]

what if he didn't take Kienan right into the house? what if he left him off at the edge of the woods & said go home? except that ... apparently dad had to unlock the door for police ...

and the thing that's really bugging me ... when the family left to go stay at the neighbours, did they lock their doors? if so, how did Hopley get in when he returned Kienan (and, indeed, how did he get inside to take Kienan in the first place)?

I really wish someone would offer some answers to how he was apparently able to access the house TWICE

The first time, I believe he broke in and lured the boy outside.

The second time the door was purposely left open to an empty house.

 

[Snoopster]

Questions still linger around the mysterious circumstances of the boy's return Sunday at about 3 a.m., including how suspect Randall Hopley - a convicted sex offender who police are adamant stole him from the home and was the one who returned him - managed to slip into the home to drop off the boy and slip away again undetected.

But to Wendy Christensen, manager of investigations with the Missing Children's Society of Canada, the RCMP should be commended.

“Nobody seems to be recognizing the fact with a stranger abduction, rarely do we know who he is," she said.

"People will put a picture of the child out there but rarely do police identify a person of interest.

"I think they should be recognized for the good job they did."

She said people may question why the Hebert home wasn't under surveillance but, as often happens in these kinds of cases, RCMP can't reveal too much to protect the investigation.

"These guys have worked tirelessly ... they work so hard," she said.

"These guys have kids too.

"Everything about this was bizarre.. the fact they were able to identify him, he was no longer a ghost.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/09/12/missing-child-expert-applauds-cops-on-kienan-case

 

[Dee10]

While I agree with the gist of your post regarding the penalites that should be imposed, I think you are underestimating the effects of FAS. I think that for every FAS adult that offends, the birth mother should serve the same sentence but that's a whole other thread LOL. But here are the odds that were stacked against Hopley before he was even born.

95% will have mental health problems;
60% will have "disrupted school experience";
60% will experience trouble with the law;
55% will be confined in prison, drug or alcohol treatment centre or mental institution;
52% will exhibit inappropriate sexual behaviour.

http://www.faslink.org/fasmain.htm

Also:

On a study on male pedophiles

Additional disabilities, such as autism spectrum disorder and Fetal Alcohol Syndrome were noted in 70% of the group.

Statistically, punishments do not work with FAS. The damage is done - and as harsh as this sounds, Hopley is, I believe, incurable. Again, I am not suggesting he be given a pass, or be allowed on the streets. I just think with the whole "tougher laws" suggestions we also need to consider attacking and solving the root of the evil if we want to really start putting a stop to these people wandering the streets to protect innocent children.

I really agree with you, to get the root of the problem IMO starts with good education, health care, day care, a good social services system (in place) in the beginning. Later in life it is too late...spend money in the beginning or pay (in more ways the one) as a society in the end?

Agreed it is way too late for Hopely!

 

[CrimeBella]

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/09/12/missing-child-expert-applauds-cops-on-kienan-case

It seems all of the experts are applauding the way this case was handled...

Those of us who don't know all the details, I don't think should be questioning anything until the details come out. I believe every single move was calculated to perfection, and we will hear all about it, when and if it becomes necessary.

These weren't podunk officers just flying by the seat of their pants, they are highly experienced, well advised and judging by the outcome - extremely effective.

 

[margaret_diane]

what if he didn't take Kienan right into the house? what if he left him off at the edge of the woods & said go home? except that ... apparently dad had to unlock the door for police ...

and the thing that's really bugging me ... when the family left to go stay at the neighbours, did they lock their doors? if so, how did Hopley get in when he returned Kienan (and, indeed, how did he get inside to take Kienan in the first place)?

I really wish someone would offer some answers to how he was apparently able to access the house TWICE

One article I saw today indicates that Paul H. left the home unlocked when they headed to the neighbor's house, and notes he did so quite intentionally. He does not indicate though, whether he did this as a result of advice / request from police or of his own volition.

I'd also like to ask:
-> If Paul left the doors UNLOCKED when he left, then WHY did he need to LET POLICE IN at the time when Kienan was discovered?? Wouldn't they be able to walk in?

-> I suspect that:
-> Police had some form of eyes and ears inside the home, and KNEW Kienan had been returned, and that the perp was now outside the home somewhere. I think they waited for dad as they wanted HIM to be the first person Kienan saw - so as to avoid further scaring the poor little guy!!
-> I also suspect that, the drop was pre-arranged, and police knew to expect Kienan that night, at a given time. Its possible that the parents knew too, and were hopefully and expectantly waiting from the neighbor's home. I do wonder whether the lights were on inside or off. Curious -- everyone would notice if the lights suddenly went on if they'd been off previously. Kienan was on the couch with his blankie... so two other blankies have yet to be recovered (?).

Also:
-> I'd like you to all to be aware that police did not NEED Paul's consent / help to get into the home that night!! I personally believe they had the family's consent to enter as needed for whatever reason... and suspect that even if they didn't, they weren't going to sit around and wait for consent if they needed it given a child's life was at stake! I'm sure they'd know that the parents would give consent, and would act accordingly!!

 

[Snoopster]

Actually, we don't KNOW whether Kienan might have wandered around the home looking for his parents or not!! We don't know how long he was sitting there! It could be he was TOLD firmly to sit there, and await rescue, or it COULD be that he DID wander the home looking for his parents... and not finding them.... he parked himself on the couch to wait for someone. We also do not know what state he was in when found. Was he tired, wide awake and alert? Was he frightened? Was he crying? His demeanor on being found would be important to know here!! Also -- could it be that LE KNEW Kienan was in the home and that they were WAITING for dad to show up to open the door? Its possible that they wanted Kienan to see a familiar and safe face first if possible so as not to further traumatize him!! They knew Kienan would go to his dad even if to no one else (strange officers etc)... letting his dad find him might have been the gentlest thing they could do for the child!!

<snip>

BBM

From the following video interview with Paul H., after his son's return, he says that he found his son asleep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4qLfMFLcCo

ETA: I meant to add that I "loved" the video heading "Toddler's dad lashes out at justice system". I didn't hear any lashing out! Am I missing something?